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Rhaegar and prophecy -- from thread on why Arthur would attack Ned


YOVMO

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A few days ago in a very good thread about why the KG attacked Ned a question was brought up about whether Rhaegar believed he would survive the battle of the trident.

 

lots of good stuff on all sides. It is my belief that Rhaegar realized that the prophecy was about the PTWP and his role in the Great War, that lyanna was a tool to have that baby (fire and ice) and that somehow Rhaegar knew that in order for the prophecy to come true he had to make the ultimate sacrifice--not just his life but that he must sacrifice the entire Targaryen dynasty, the iron throne and everything built in the 300 years since Aegon I. My claim is that this accounts for his meloncholy, that he had visions while in summerhall while trying to understand the prophecy. 

In fact, I believe that Rhaegar set into motion and saw through the total downfall of house Targaryen just to make sure Job fulfilled a prophecy.

 

i am Re-reading ASOS and wanted to add this quote to the conversation but felt it was off topic for original thread.

it is while Arstan is telling Dany about Rhaegar 

 

 

“When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself”

Anyhoo, that's all. I was wondering if anyone else has the same or similar sense of things

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Sadly, Rhaegar promised he would return to set things right with his father. In the flashback Jaime had, he clearly says this.

It's my belief that the end of the Targaryens was not required for the prophecy. 

Furthermore, if he wanted to use Lyanna as a tool, she would have know. He said her name as he died. She wasn't a tool to him. He knew he needed a third, and may have been trying to plan on taking a paramour, but then he met Lyanna Stark. Ice met fire. I have always believed that no one has properly understood the prophecy. 

What I believe is that it meant by ice and fire was that the TPTWP was that he would be descended from the Kings of the North. Rhaeger may have had psychic powers, but I doubt he would willingly end his family dynasty. 

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1 hour ago, TheDemonicStark said:

Sadly, Rhaegar promised he would return to set things right with his father. In the flashback Jaime had, he clearly says this.

It's my belief that the end of the Targaryens was not required for the prophecy. 

Furthermore, if he wanted to use Lyanna as a tool, she would have know. He said her name as he died. She wasn't a tool to him. He knew he needed a third, and may have been trying to plan on taking a paramour, but then he met Lyanna Stark. Ice met fire. I have always believed that no one has properly understood the prophecy. 

What I believe is that it meant by ice and fire was that the TPTWP was that he would be descended from the Kings of the North. Rhaeger may have had psychic powers, but I doubt he would willingly end his family dynasty. 

I have considered all this and yes, it is all totally reasonable. However, I would say that what Rhaegar promised a young Jamie to keep him (and Tywin) loyal for the nonce may not have been what was in his heart...as Barristan says, no on really knew Rhaegar.

 

also, if the choice was end of all humanity or end of Targaryen reign and Rhaegar picked the later it would explain his moodiness.

 

finally, there is none to dispute that the actions of Rhaegar after the tourney at Harrenhall directly effect the world in such a way that Jon Snow wound uo being LC of the NW at just the right time.

 

just some thoughts 

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10 hours ago, YOVMO said:

“When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself”

I noticed the quote, as well, but I rather believe that this is what he was trying to prevent. 

It has also been speculated that the vision(s) may not have been his own but perhaps told to him by someone else, possible GoHH during his visits to Summerhall.

 

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I think Rhaegar fully expected to be victorious and that he would return to KL to depose his father.  He probably felt that he had some kind of plot armor because of some facet of the prophecies he'd been studying.  

Unfortunately he was another example of someone chasing prophecy, which is something Martin punishes.  

Chasing prophecies is like being Icarus flying to close to the sun.

He was trying to force the prophecy, just like Melisandre does later and Egg did before in Summerhall. As far as I can tell, every time someone tries to do that they get severely spanked.  

So no, I don't think he had any psychic powers or planned on single handedly causing the downfall of his house.  He was overconfident that he knew what he was doing, and he was wrong. 

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6 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

I think Rhaegar fully expected to be victorious and that he would return to KL to depose his father.  He probably felt that he had some kind of plot armor because of some facet of the prophecies he'd been studying.  

Unfortunately he was another example of someone chasing prophecy, which is something Martin punishes.  

Chasing prophecies is like being Icarus flying to close to the sun.

He was trying to force the prophecy, just like Melisandre does later and Egg did before in Summerhall. As far as I can tell, every time someone tries to do that they get severely spanked.  

So no, I don't think he had any psychic powers or planned on single handedly causing the downfall of his house.  He was overconfident that he knew what he was doing, and he was wrong. 

I totally agree. 

We can all also agree that Rhaeger loved Lyanna, right?

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1 hour ago, TheDemonicStark said:

I totally agree. 

We can all also agree that Rhaeger loved Lyanna, right?

I think he loved her, yes. But also, love, is different for all men. For Ned, his love of Cat had to do with Honor whereas Robert's brief love for women was more about passion and excited end and escape. Tywin seems to have loved Joanna as a solace and Walser Frey loved for youth and fertility.

yes, I agree that Rgaegar loved Lyanna but I feel his brand of love, if we can call it a brand, was more about destiny.

where Ned would have loved honorably and Stannis dutifly and Robert passionately, I feel that Rhaegar's love, would have been like everything else he did. Meloncholy and with an eyetowards destiny

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16 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I think he loved her, yes. But also, love, is different for all men. For Ned, his love of Cat had to do with Honor whereas Robert's brief love for women was more about passion and excited end and escape. Tywin seems to have loved Joanna as a solace and Walser Frey loved for youth and fertility.

yes, I agree that Rgaegar loved Lyanna but I feel his brand of love, if we can call it a brand, was more about destiny.

where Ned would have loved honorably and Stannis dutifly and Robert passionately, I feel that Rhaegar's love, would have been like everything else he did. Meloncholy and with an eyetowards destiny

Perhaps. Though, he did die with Lyanna's name on his lips. That has to tell you something. Love is an uncontrollable thing.

Just look at Drogo and Dany. Dany was scared at first, but there was a deep love there, that grew and blossomed. 

I think the same may have happened with Rhaeger and Lyanna. He thought about destiny, but something more grew there, something beautiful.

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3 hours ago, TheDemonicStark said:

Perhaps. Though, he did die with Lyanna's name on his lips. That has to tell you something. Love is an uncontrollable thing.

Just look at Drogo and Dany. Dany was scared at first, but there was a deep love there, that grew and blossomed. 

I think the same may have happened with Rhaeger and Lyanna. He thought about destiny, but something more grew there, something beautiful.

Kind of un related, is it confirmed Rhaegar said Lyanna's name?

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9 hours ago, TheDemonicStark said:

Perhaps. Though, he did die with Lyanna's name on his lips. That has to tell you something. Love is an uncontrollable thing.

Just look at Drogo and Dany. Dany was scared at first, but there was a deep love there, that grew and blossomed. 

I think the same may have happened with Rhaeger and Lyanna. He thought about destiny, but something more grew there, something beautiful.

Agreed 100%. I don't want to cheapen their love by saying it was only about destiny. Just saying that Rhaegar and, presumably, lyanna loved each other in a way that Ned or Tywin or Robert would not have understood

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7 hours ago, TheDemonicStark said:

Well, he was only fond of Elia Martell, and the only other woman in his life was Lyanna. I'm just annoyed that people think he saw her as a tool.

I asked in small questions and apparently it does say on the app he said Lyanna.  IMO it is fair for people to think that at this point because we just have no info to go on.  We can surmise that he would have respected/admired her for being tkotlt, but we just don't know enough about his own character to know what he felt about her.  If he really was just obsessed with prophecy that's how he would have seen her, as with himself likely.  Just like a religious fanatic, how the high septon or some christian would say we are all tools of the lord.

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The thing with prophecy in this series is that they always come true, but not always in the ways we expect.

I believe that Rhaegar Targaryen had dragon dream like Daenys Targaryen, Daeron Targaryen and Daemon Blackfyre. He was probably very melancholic not only because of the tragedy at Summerhall, but like Daeron, from his own prophetic dream he had no idea how to interpret and utilize. Daeron's dragon dreams always came true, but he had no idea how to utilize them, hence he always drunk himself to sleep so to prevent himself from dreaming (didn't help though). Daemon believed a dragon would hatch at Butterwell, he misinterpret his dragon dream that it'd be an actual dragon, with disastrous outcome to him and his folk. Daemon also dreamt that Dunk would become a Kingsguard, but he thought Dunk would be his own Kingsguard, not Egg's.

It's possible that Rhaegar had a dream about the doom of the world since young, but no idea how the doom would come to be. Imagine how tough it is for him to live with that knowledge, with no idea how to prevent it becoming true and no one to rely to, with attitude towards magic being dismissed as snarks and grumpkins.

About Rhaegar's last conversation with Jaime, Rhaegar might have believed that he'd be victorious in a fight against Robert, maybe he dreamt that a dragon would emerge victorious, ignoring that Robert also had Targaryen's blood in him. His dream failed him like Daemon's.

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On 30/07/2016 at 6:35 AM, Lurid Jester said:

I think Rhaegar fully expected to be victorious and that he would return to KL to depose his father.  He probably felt that he had some kind of plot armor because of some facet of the prophecies he'd been studying.  

Unfortunately he was another example of someone chasing prophecy, which is something Martin punishes.  

Chasing prophecies is like being Icarus flying to close to the sun.

He was trying to force the prophecy, just like Melisandre does later and Egg did before in Summerhall. As far as I can tell, every time someone tries to do that they get severely spanked.  

So no, I don't think he had any psychic powers or planned on single handedly causing the downfall of his house.  He was overconfident that he knew what he was doing, and he was wrong. 

Well, Marwyn the Mage had this to say about prophecies:

"Ghorgan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Ghorgan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."

So beware of prophecies!

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On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 10:46 AM, TheDemonicStark said:

Perhaps. Though, he did die with Lyanna's name on his lips. That has to tell you something. Love is an uncontrollable thing.

Like I said, I believe Rhaegar truly loved Lyanna just that he loved like Rhaegar. Just doing a pump and dump on a stranger like ROBERT (Thank you @TheDemonicStark)would have or dutifuly bringing himself to his wifes bed once a year like stannis wouldn't be his style. Love is an uncontrollable thing, but Rhaegar was Rhaegar and I would say he felt things differently.


While I do not remember that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips, I am not surprised by it. Can you give the quote for that?

Quote

Just look at Drogo and Dany. Dany was scared at first, but there was a deep love there, that grew and blossomed. 

Absolutely. I never agree with people who seem to think that Dany was all Stockholm syndrome. Drogo is a very interesting character I think. There is a lot about him that makes him special and not just his size and strength. He was so much unlike other Dothraki.

Quote

I think the same may have happened with Rhaeger and Lyanna. He thought about destiny, but something more grew there, something beautiful.

I am not sure why the thinking about destiny can't be beautiful too. Rhaegar was a very complicated man. I can see him obsessing over the song of ice and dire and feeling an incredible need to be with Lyanna. That it is born in his belief in destiny or prophecy dreams doesn't, in any way, lessen that I think. Lyanna, on the other hand, is confusing to me. Why did she love Rhaegar. I mean, yes, all the chicks dug the crown prince. But for a woman who is the daughter of a great lord, engaged to another great lord and who has a very strict moral compass (as evinced with her tending to Howland Reed at Harrenhall) to run off and shame her lord father and her future husband there has to be more than just the Targaryen tingles ya know?

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1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

Like I said, I believe Rhaegar truly loved Lyanna just that he loved like Rhaegar. Just doing a pump and dump on a stranger like Ned would have or dutifuly bringing himself to his wifes bed once a year like stannis wouldn't be his style. Love is an uncontrollable thing, but Rhaegar was Rhaegar and I would say he felt things differently.


While I do not remember that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips, I am not surprised by it. Can you give the quote for that?

Absolutely. I never agree with people who seem to think that Dany was all Stockholm syndrome. Drogo is a very interesting character I think. There is a lot about him that makes him special and not just his size and strength. He was so much unlike other Dothraki.

I am not sure why the thinking about destiny can't be beautiful too. Rhaegar was a very complicated man. I can see him obsessing over the song of ice and dire and feeling an incredible need to be with Lyanna. That it is born in his belief in destiny or prophecy dreams doesn't, in any way, lessen that I think. Lyanna, on the other hand, is confusing to me. Why did she love Rhaegar. I mean, yes, all the chicks dug the crown prince. But for a woman who is the daughter of a great lord, engaged to another great lord and who has a very strict moral compass (as evinced with her tending to Howland Reed at Harrenhall) to run off and shame her lord father and her future husband there has to be more than just the Targaryen tingles ya know?

Dude.....did you just say.....pump and dump a stranger like Ned? Aren't we talking about Robert?

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Just now, TheDemonicStark said:

Dude.....did you just say.....pump and dump a stranger like Ned? Aren't we talking about Robert?

yes sorry, I meant Robert of course...as you say. I will edit. Thanks for the pick up

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