Brown Ben Plumm Will Ride Viserion

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Visenya the Dragon said:

Okay I forgot how to do the spoiler tags. Could some please tell me how?

[ spoiler ] stuff [/spoiler]

Without the spaces. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

Tyrion and not BBP will ride VISERION, it is known. Dany named the white dragon after her brother VISerys except that she did not realise that TyRION would be the brother named after...

If Tyrion is Aerys’s son I would say Tyrion would likely ride Viserion. But I still am not convinced that Tyrion is Aerys’s son. 

[HoodedCrow]

When you read the examples of dragon riders, they seem to like people who: have a drop of Targ blood, or are ballsy, cunning, who feed them, are passionate. They don't always go for a Targ scion. They don't want the same people. They don't seem compatible with high fertility in riders. Targs seem to have dragon dreams. 

Tyrion may have a tiny drop of Targ blood from his Lannister genes, or a lot if he is a Targ bastard. He is cunning, ballsy, blooded in battle, shows leadership, has dragon dreams, and knows more than the basics about animal training, riding and acrobatics. Wolves don't like him, but Dany may end up liking him. There are lots of dragon and flying metaphors that waft about him in the books. He plays cyvasse well, and a dragon lands at his feet, but that could be Dany.

Ben Plumm is ballsy, cunning, and is a mercenary. He probably has a jot of Targ blood. While Viserion didn't incinerate him, neither was he chosen, and Vis flew off shrieking. He is a leader. Martin likes his small characters, too. I can't recall, doesn't he win at Cyvasse?

 

[Visenya the Dragon]

3 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

It's become easy now: just use the 'eye' icon in the text editor 

Thank you! 

[Visenya the Dragon]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

[ spoiler ] stuff [/spoiler]

Without the spaces. 

Oh thank you! I got caught up earlier and forgot to use them. And when I went to fix it it did not work silly me had a it wrong lol... 

[Jô Maltese]

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If Tyrion is Aerys’s son I would say Tyrion would likely ride Viserion. But I still am not convinced that Tyrion is Aerys’s son. 

Yes, I know 

[Criston of House Shapper]

20 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I’m curious how is that going to come about. I know this is a fantasy story but, Tyrion needs help getting on a horse. I mean, is Viseron gonna lay down and let Tyrion grab hold of his horn, climb up his snout, walk across his neck and install a special dragon saddle?  Oh, I get it, foreshadowing, this is why Martin gave us Penny and the dog & pig. Tyrion’s acrobatics practice comes into play. He runs as fast as his stunted legs will allow then jumps and somersaults onto the dragons back.

Well, Daenerys isn't that much bigger than Tyrion in relation to a dragon, if she can do it, so can a dwarf. I mean, Drogon is the biggest of the bunch, so the ratio is probably pretty close. Maybe he will be catapulted towards Viserion by a trebuchet and then land on him in mid-air.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I think most of this works for Tyrion as dragonrider rather than Ben Plumm

I completly agree about Viserion being wounded by one of the trebuchets. I once speculated that it could be Dragonbreaker.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

I think most of this works for Tyrion as dragonrider rather than Ben Plumm

I completly agree about Viserion being wounded by one of the trebuchets. I once speculated that it could be Dragonbreaker.

I like to think that I came up with Dragonbreaker independently, but I may have been influenced by your posts, most likely in Moments of Foreshadowing, eh? Maybe the catapult/trebuchet too. A lot of my ideas have come from interaction with you and others. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

I think Brown Ben is definitely a candidate for a dragon rider.

I think out of all of the traits that make him likely to be a rider the most compelling one is that he cannot be trusted. Just from the literary standpoint, it makes for a much more interesting story if a guy like Plumm ends up a rider.

Besides, I could see Viserys (for whom the dragon was named,) going for a guy like Plumm: Someone who knows the 7 kingdoms well enough to at least pretend to recognize his claim. Someone with ties to westeros and the Targaryens, and who has swords and can be bought...

[Clegane'sPup]

5 hours ago, Criston of House Shapper said:

Well, Daenerys isn't that much bigger than Tyrion in relation to a dragon, if she can do it, so can a dwarf. I mean, Drogon is the biggest of the bunch, so the ratio is probably pretty close. Maybe he will be catapulted towards Viserion by a trebuchet and then land on him in mid-air.

Martin’s and Dany’s dragons are not cute little pets, as Plumm referred to them but Plumm is a wiley character much as the Mance is tricksy old bird. I’ve only read the Princess & and Queen once.  https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ allows people to browse through the books.

Martin’s dragons are fickle and unpredictable.

We shall not pretend to any understanding of the bond between dragon and dragonrider; wiser heads have pondered that mystery for centuries. We do know, however, that dragons are not horses, to be ridden by any man who throws a saddle on their back. Syrax was the queen’s dragon. She had never known another rider. Though Prince Joffrey was known to her by sight and scent, a familiar presence whose fumbling at her chains excited no alarm, the great yellow she-dragon wanted no part of him astride her. In his haste to be away before before he could be stopped, the prince had vaulted onto Syrax without benefit of saddle or whip. His intent, we must presume, was either to fly Syrax into battle or, more likely, to cross the city to the Dragonpit and his own Tyraxes. Mayhaps he meant to loose the other pit dragons as well.

Joffrey never reached the Hill of Rhaenys. Once in the air, Syrax twisted beneath him, fighting to be free of this unfamiliar rider. And from below, stones and spears and arrows flew at him from the hands of the rioters below, maddening the dragon even further. Two hundred feet above Flea Bottom, Prince Joffrey slid from the dragon’s back and plunged to the earth.

LM made reference to Sheepstealer & Nettles in the OP so I’m gonna provide this.

Sheepstealer proved easier to flush out, but he remained a vicious, ill-tempered beast, who killed more seeds than the three “castle dragons” together. One who hoped to tame him (after his quest for Grey Ghost proved fruitless) was Alyn of Hull. Sheepstealer would have none of him. When he stumbled from the dragon’s lair with his cloak aflame, only his brother’s swift action saved his life. Seasmoke drove the wild dragon off as Addam used his own cloak to beat out the flames. Alyn Velaryon would carry the scars of the encounter on his back and legs for the rest of his long life. Yet he counted himself fortunate, for he lived. Many of the other seeds and seekers who aspired to ride upon Sheepstealer’s back ended in Sheepstealer’s belly instead.

In the end, the brown dragon was brought to heel by the cunning and persistence of a “small brown girl” of six-and-ten, named Netty, who delivered him a freshly slaughtered sheep every morning, until Sheepstealer learned to accept and expect her. She was black-haired, brown-eyed, brown-skinned, skinny, foul-mouthed, filthy, and fearless … and the first and last rider of the dragon Sheepstealer.

How the prince and his bastard girl spent their last night beneath Lord Mooton’s roof is not recorded, but as dawn broke they appeared together in the yard, and Prince Daemon helped Nettles saddle Sheepstealer one last time. It was her custom to feed him each day before she flew; dragons bend easier to their rider’s will when full. That morning she fed him a black ram, the largest in all Maidenpool, slitting the ram’s throat herself. Her riding leathers were stained with blood when she mounted her dragon, Maester Norren records, and “her cheeks were stained with tears.” No word of farewell was spoken betwixt man and maid, but as Sheepstealer beat his leathery brown wings and climbed into the dawn sky, Caraxes raised his head and gave a scream that shattered every window in Jonquil’s Tower. High above the town, Nettles turned her dragon toward the Bay of Crabs, and vanished in the morning mists, never to be seen again at court or castle.

I know using partial quotes out of context is hit & miss, that is why I included the link. Tyrion’s fascination with dragons is not going to guarantee him a seat on the back of a dragon.  The size of Dany’s now wild and growing dragons has not been fully described by Martin in DwD. Other than Rhaegal had a head the size of a horse.  Tyrion’s fascination & book knowledge could provide Plumm a seat though. Or not.

Har! If I wanted to get cracked pot and tin foolery I might even suggest that Dany's eggs were Sheepstealer's.

LTFTSAH and LM have thrown in another term I'm not familiar with; Dragonbreaker. ARGH! Shucks.

 

 

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

 

Martin’s and Dany’s dragons are not cute little pets, as Plumm referred to them but Plumm is a wiley character much as the Mance is tricksy old bird. I’ve only read the Princess & and Queen once.  https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ allows people to browse through the books.

Martin’s dragons are fickle and unpredictable.

We shall not pretend to any understanding of the bond between dragon and dragonrider; wiser heads have pondered that mystery for centuries. We do know, however, that dragons are not horses, to be ridden by any man who throws a saddle on their back. Syrax was the queen’s dragon. She had never known another rider. Though Prince Joffrey was known to her by sight and scent, a familiar presence whose fumbling at her chains excited no alarm, the great yellow she-dragon wanted no part of him astride her. In his haste to be away before before he could be stopped, the prince had vaulted onto Syrax without benefit of saddle or whip. His intent, we must presume, was either to fly Syrax into battle or, more likely, to cross the city to the Dragonpit and his own Tyraxes. Mayhaps he meant to loose the other pit dragons as well.

 

Joffrey never reached the Hill of Rhaenys. Once in the air, Syrax twisted beneath him, fighting to be free of this unfamiliar rider. And from below, stones and spears and arrows flew at him from the hands of the rioters below, maddening the dragon even further. Two hundred feet above Flea Bottom, Prince Joffrey slid from the dragon’s back and plunged to the earth.

LM made reference to Sheepstealer & Nettles in the OP so I’m gonna provide this.

Sheepstealer proved easier to flush out, but he remained a vicious, ill-tempered beast, who killed more seeds than the three “castle dragons” together. One who hoped to tame him (after his quest for Grey Ghost proved fruitless) was Alyn of Hull. Sheepstealer would have none of him. When he stumbled from the dragon’s lair with his cloak aflame, only his brother’s swift action saved his life. Seasmoke drove the wild dragon off as Addam used his own cloak to beat out the flames. Alyn Velaryon would carry the scars of the encounter on his back and legs for the rest of his long life. Yet he counted himself fortunate, for he lived. Many of the other seeds and seekers who aspired to ride upon Sheepstealer’s back ended in Sheepstealer’s belly instead.

 

In the end, the brown dragon was brought to heel by the cunning and persistence of a “small brown girl” of six-and-ten, named Netty, who delivered him a freshly slaughtered sheep every morning, until Sheepstealer learned to accept and expect her. She was black-haired, brown-eyed, brown-skinned, skinny, foul-mouthed, filthy, and fearless … and the first and last rider of the dragon Sheepstealer.

How the prince and his bastard girl spent their last night beneath Lord Mooton’s roof is not recorded, but as dawn broke they appeared together in the yard, and Prince Daemon helped Nettles saddle Sheepstealer one last time. It was her custom to feed him each day before she flew; dragons bend easier to their rider’s will when full. That morning she fed him a black ram, the largest in all Maidenpool, slitting the ram’s throat herself. Her riding leathers were stained with blood when she mounted her dragon, Maester Norren records, and “her cheeks were stained with tears.” No word of farewell was spoken betwixt man and maid, but as Sheepstealer beat his leathery brown wings and climbed into the dawn sky, Caraxes raised his head and gave a scream that shattered every window in Jonquil’s Tower. High above the town, Nettles turned her dragon toward the Bay of Crabs, and vanished in the morning mists, never to be seen again at court or castle.

 

I know using partial quotes out of context is hit & miss, that is why I included the link. Tyrion’s fascination with dragons is not going to guarantee him a seat on the back of a dragon.  The size of Dany’s now wild and growing dragons has not been fully described by Martin in DwD. Other than Rhaegal had a head the size of a horse.  Tyrion’s fascination & book knowledge could provide Plumm a seat though. Or not.

Har! If I wanted to get cracked pot and tin foolery I might even suggest that Dany's eggs were Sheepstealer's.

LTFTSAH and LM have thrown in another term I'm not familiar with; Dragonbreaker. ARGH! Shucks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dargonbreaker is one of the six named trebuchets around Meereen. 

[Sigella]

20 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

1. I see what you're saying, but I disagree with your conclusion. 

2. Why? 

1 fine 

2 error on my part, hadn't thought it through  

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I like to think that I came up with Dragonbreaker independently, but I may have been influenced by your posts, most likely in Moments of Foreshadowing, eh? Maybe the catapult/trebuchet too. A lot of my ideas have come from interaction with you and others. 

Sure. I wasn´t acusing of anything. ,,Thats almost always how theories are built.

i have no idea in which thread fthe idea of cyvasse games as foreshadowing for Viserion getting wounded was discussed. I think Mithras used to have one. I made a post in a spanish forum about this subject, though again i think it will be Tyrion who brings viserion back to health and ends up bonding with him.

 

As for BBP, i could add that in the Mystery knight, another Plumm, Maynard Plumm steals a dragon (Egg) with the help of some dwarf.

maybe foreshadowing of Brown Ben doing the same.

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

35 minutes ago, Sigella said:

1 fine 

2 error on my part, hadn't thought it through  

2. I hate it when that happens. 

[Jô Maltese]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

2. I hate it when that happens. 

2. Well, I personally think the same as @Sigella: the 3 heads of the dragon/ the 3 dragon riders are more likely to be POVs. And I would add the more prominent ones... Tyrion, Jon and Dany.

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

2. Well, I personally think the same as @Sigella: the 3 heads of the dragon/ the 3 dragon riders are more likely to be POVs. And I would add the more prominent ones... Tyrion, Jon and Dany.

But you don't believe that the three heads of Rhaegar's dragon are the same as the riders of Daenerys's three dragons, do you? 

[Jô Maltese]

18 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But you don't believe that the three heads of Rhaegar's dragon are the same as the riders of Daenerys's three dragons, do you? 

Of course I do. What else? A super Jon with 3 heads? Background characters like BBP

Spoiler

who do not even make it to the TV show?

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Of course I do. What else? A super Jon with 3 heads? Background characters like BBP

  Hide contents

who do not even make it to the TV show?

 

I wouldna give a fig for the fanfic on HBO, but I suspect each dragon could have multiple riders. While I do believe Brown Ben will ride Viserion, I do not believe he is one the heads that The Geo... er, Rhaegar told us to look for. The three heads of the Targaryen Dragon are Daenerys, Aegon, and Jon. As Kevan says, no man can question Daenerys's identity. When The George had the Rhaegar vision look at Daenerys, he was signaling there would be two more. Aegon was revealed to be Rhaegar's son, and black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. And Jon will be revealed to be Rhaegar's true son. Like three headed trios, Daenerys will devour Aegon, and Jon Snow will be "reborn." 

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

On 7/29/2016 at 7:01 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

As soon as we meet Brown Ben Plumm, we learn about Viserion's attraction to him and Brown Ben's Targaryen blood...

Daenerys V, Storm 57

Clearly, Brown Ben is a character to watch. Isn't this the only time we see any of the Dragons give anyone other than Daenerys some love? This must be either a hint that Brown Ben will ride Viserion or a feint in that direction. 

Tyrion fills in a little more family backstory for us...

Tyrion XI, Dance 57

The World of Ice and Fire confirms that Princess Elaena Targaryen, daughter of Aegon III, and cousin to Aegon IV, was wed to Ossifer Plumm, who died on his wedding day. And the mysteries of the six-foot member and the two drops of Targaryen blood are revealed to be the rumor that Ossifer could not have fathered his son Viserys since he was already dead, and that Aegon IV was the natural father of Viserys.

So, now we can trace Brown Ben’s patrilineal descent:

Father: Some Dude named Plumm
Mother: Dothraki Woman

Grandfather: First Plumm born in Essos
Grandmother: Half-Ibbenese and half-Qohorik woman

Great Grandfather: Younger Son of Viserys
Great Grandmother: Half-Bravosi and half Summer Islander woman

Second Great Grandfather: Lord Viserys Plumm
Second Great Grandmother: Woman from Dorne

Third Great Grandfather: Lord Ossifer Plumm (Aegon IV)
Third Great Grandmother: Elaena Targaryen

And now switching over to Brown Ben’s Targaryen ancestry through Elaena:

Fourth Great Grandfather: Aegon III
Fourth Great Grandmother: Daenaera Velaryon

Fifth Great Grandfather: Daemon Targaryen
Fifth Great Grandmother: Rhaenyra Targaryen

Note that in The Rogue Prince we learn that “Prince Daemon had little difficulty assembling an army of landless adventurers and second sons.” Also note that “Prince Daemon Targaryen and the small brown girl called Nettles ... based themselves at Maidenpool” where “he kept the girl Nettles by his side, day and night, in sky and castle.” Nettles, of course, tamed Sheepstealer...

The Princess and the Queen

In Winds,

  Reveal hidden contents

 

we see Tyrion’s strategy begin to unfold...

Tyrion, Winds

  Reveal hidden contents

Things get really interesting with that pale white wooden cyvasse dragon veined with blood ending up at Tyrion's feet.

There are six trebuchets arrayed about Meereen...

Tyrion X, Dance 47

Aboard the Shy Maid we first observe Tyrion play cyvasse with Haldon. Haldon's game has wooden pieces and no colors are decribed...

Tyrion IV, Dance 14

Later, Tyrion did reach for his dragon and defeated the Halfmaester...

Tyrion IV, Dance 14

So, first Tyrion’s dragon gets knocked out of the sky by a trebuchet, and then he stretches a hand out for it.

In his next game, he plays with the black dragon, both literally and figuratively. After playing the black dragon, Tyrion plays against a Volantene...

Tyrion VI, Dance 22

Trebuchets, of course, are a type of catapult, and once again, we see one knocking a white dragon out of the sky. After crushing Brown Ben in several games, Tyrion taps his dragon and notes that he was lucky. Later when Tyrion negotiates his escape with Brown Ben he spies a cyvasse table and remarks his "throat is as dry as an old bone." That's a pretty curious way to say you're thirsty. But bones are white. Like alabaster.

Viserion will be knocked out of the sky by a stone hurled from the trebuchet Dragonbraker, and Tyrion will stretch out a hand for it. Tyrion will get lucky and Viserion will just be wounded. Tyrion, of course, likes cripples and broken things, and we have to assume that Tyrion knows the tales of Nettles and Sheepstealer, and Aegon II and Sunfyre. He's clearly familiar with Brown Ben's Targaryen ancestry, and he could very likely trace Brown Ben’s ancestry to Daemon Targaryen. Tyrion, then, will help Brown Ben to nurse Viserion back to health, and to bond with the white dragon

 

I'm gonna be quick on this cause I'm on my phone and headed to bed just wanted to say great thread. I was working on a theory around part of this but got sidetracked I went back to look at my old thread on Ben Plumm but it's a mess lol. Anyway I think I can fill in one blank on your family tree and it is with the other person who was brought to our attention with Dragon blood around the same time 

 

Great Grandfather: Younger Son of Viserys
Great Grandmother: Half-Bravosi and half Summer Islander woman

 

the original Black Pearl was these exact two cultures and her daughter's and son were Great Bastards

 

it is very possible that one of these children married either a Martel or a Plumm