Future Null Infinity Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 I always had a big interest in realistic and unpredictable stories, I enjoyed the story of Cersei until Maggy and her prophecy showed up in Season 5 and now after the fulfilment of the children part, I'm sure that the remaining of the prophecy will be fulfilled : a queen will take the iron throne from her (it doesn't matter for me who is the queen) and from the missing part of the prophecy in the show, one of her brothers will kill her (again, it doesn't matter who is the brother) I mean this is not a prophecy for me, a prophecy is intended to be cryptic and enigmatic, this is a spoiler of her entire arc, I know now what will happen to her, the inclusion of this prophecy made her story so predictable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 It's cooler in the books that it feeds her paranoia making her do stupid things that leads to the deaths of her children and make it a self fulfilling prophecy. Not all prophecies needs to be cryptic. You already have a lot of that in the story. But it makes sense in the books not in the show. Show Cersei don't need that prophecy. She was not shown to be paranoid. She has legitimate reasons to hate Margaery and that's not her paranoia speaking like in the books. She has legitimate reasons to fear for Myrcella as the Dornish send her an open threat. And leaving out the valanqor part makes the prophecy even more unnecessary. It completely takes out what it made interesting in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADanceWithCats Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 I agree that the book version of the prophecy is nothing but a giant spoiler. That's why I'm glad that the show took out the part about how Cersei will die. At least SOME people will be surprised, even if I won't. But I think that the prophecy had a huge effect on Cersei in the show. After Myrcella's death, you can almost see her slowly writing Tommen off - especially after he started to side with the High Sparrow against her. She wouldn't have reacted this way if she was not halfway convinced that he was as good as dead already - which she was due to the prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted July 30, 2016 Author Share Posted July 30, 2016 4 hours ago, khal drogon said: It completely takes out what it made interesting in the books. I agree with you, the death of her children in the show had nothing to do with the prophecy, I whised that they didn't include the maggy prophecy in the show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Join the club. That prophecy wasn't just a giant ass spoiler, it was an amateurish, unnecessary almost-retcon and it nearly ruins Cersei's character development. I hope at least something interesting comes out of that lamery, like Jeyne Westerling displaying prophetic powers like Maggy or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsug Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Yeah Maggy the Frog is even worse in the books. It literally tells the reader exactly what's gonna happen to her, how she's gonna die, and who kills her. I don't know what GRRM was thinking. He straight up spoiled his own story in an earlier book. At least the show cut the part about her death. Leave us SOME suprise there, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneColdJorahMormont Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 What is left in the prophecy to fulfil ? I was hoping that what actually played out was she was so busy looking for her death to come at the hands of her/A little brother (Tyrion,Jamie,Hound) that she is taken by surprise by someone else and you see her realising that the prophecy was total bullshit and infact everything happened because she made it happen. every death of her children can be linked back to some action of her own. Similar to when someone read their star signs and it predicts they will win the lottery and so they end up going out and buying a thousand lottery tickets after reading it to make it happen... which they normally wouldn't obviously do, the making something happen because you thought it was going to happen, but it actually never would have. Easier for her to pin the blame on some silly prediction than take responsibility for her own actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneColdJorahMormont Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 or the death of tommen ( the little brother ) if the prophecy is true could be what set her demise and her actual death will still be surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelagie Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 14 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said: I always had a big interest in realistic and unpredictable stories, I enjoyed the story of Cersei until Maggy and her prophecy showed up in Season 5 and now after the fulfilment of the children part, I'm sure that the remaining of the prophecy will be fulfilled : a queen will take the iron throne from her (it doesn't matter for me who is the queen) and from the missing part of the prophecy in the show, one of her brothers will kill her (again, it doesn't matter who is the brother) I mean this is not a prophecy for me, a prophecy is intended to be cryptic and enigmatic, this is a spoiler of her entire arc, I know now what will happen to her, the inclusion of this prophecy made her story so predictable The interest is not in what will happen to her, but how it will hap !!! And the game of throne is mostly a game of theorie !!! And a so funny and M.M.O.Game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelagie Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 6 hours ago, ADanceWithCats said: I agree that the book version of the prophecy is nothing but a giant spoiler. That's why I'm glad that the show took out the part about how Cersei will die. At least SOME people will be surprised, even if I won't. But I think that the prophecy had a huge effect on Cersei in the show. After Myrcella's death, you can almost see her slowly writing Tommen off - especially after he started to side with the High Sparrow against her. She wouldn't have reacted this way if she was not halfway convinced that he was as good as dead already - which she was due to the prophecy. 37 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said: What is left in the prophecy to fulfil ? I was hoping that what actually played out was she was so busy looking for her death to come at the hands of her/A little brother (Tyrion,Jamie,Hound) that she is taken by surprise by someone else and you see her realising that the prophecy was total bullshit and infact everything happened because she made it happen. every death of her children can be linked back to some action of her own. Similar to when someone read their star signs and it predicts they will win the lottery and so they end up going out and buying a thousand lottery tickets after reading it to make it happen... which they normally wouldn't obviously do, the making something happen because you thought it was going to happen, but it actually never would have. Easier for her to pin the blame on some silly prediction than take responsibility for her own actions. Self-fulfilling prophecy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Mother Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 16 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said: I always had a big interest in realistic and unpredictable stories, I enjoyed the story of Cersei until Maggy and her prophecy showed up in Season 5 and now after the fulfilment of the children part, I'm sure that the remaining of the prophecy will be fulfilled : a queen will take the iron throne from her (it doesn't matter for me who is the queen) and from the missing part of the prophecy in the show, one of her brothers will kill her (again, it doesn't matter who is the brother) I mean this is not a prophecy for me, a prophecy is intended to be cryptic and enigmatic, this is a spoiler of her entire arc, I know now what will happen to her, the inclusion of this prophecy made her story so predictable Good post. I kind of disagree. Because if you begin a story or an arc with a prophecy, it's hardly ever exact and laid out like a brunch spread. What I find interesting in these kinds of stories or arcs involving prophecy is the events that lead to the (sometimes) clearly laid out end OF the prophecy. There are many variations and it reminds of the famous Sarah Conner idea of the 80s (90s?) Terminator movies where she has this prophecy laid on her, but she has no idea how it will unfold. So ultimately, she comes to her own conclusion "NO FATE" and carves it into the picnic bench. Because I guess she came to believe "there is no fate but what we make for ourselves." In the end, THOUGH everything Sarah did brought about the prophecy. So in itself, does that make you wonder, even if you went and sat in a cave until the prophecy was over, would that stop it from happening? Or does you sitting in the cave help bring it about? So for me, it is interesting the way it unfolds and in this instance we see Cercei's paranoia brought the whole thing to life. All the things she did where she thought she was thwarting the Maggy was actually helping it come true. THIS brings up another point of the prophet herself. The prophet cannot possibly see all the roads and tributaries that bring the conclusion to life............. she prolly only sees the end result in a random/visionary/singular way. Such as, I don't think The Maggy could say "you will blow up the Sept and therefore Tommen will jump and kill himself". She probably just sees the end result but not ALL the specific ways that lead to the end result. This, I find fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted July 30, 2016 Author Share Posted July 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Pelagie said: Self-fulfilling prophecy I can understand that the death of her children is a self-fulfilment, she was overprotective (despite my thinking that in the show, the causes of Joff and Myrcella deaths are completely unrelated to the self-fulfilment) and I can understand that Tyrion will kill her as self-fulfilment because she was afraid of him but the part of the YMBQ can't never be a self-fulfilment, there is no logic in it, Cersei don't have the power to make something like this to happen, the only way is to distort the entire reality, this is why I think it's a spoiler and not a self-fulfilling prophecy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakin1013 Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 I also disagree and for a different reason. I think as reader and viewer, we are supposed to compare and contrast those who live with prophecy-of-future and those who live with no input about their futures (like most of us). Cersei hears Maggy prophecy about her future and she (Cersei) makes it all happen (up to this point), without realizing it. For contrast, Jon has zero idea about who he even is or who his parents are, let alone his role in his life and the life of others (unlike most of us). Dany has some hints from the House of the Undying. She has a mission and a purpose but she seems to feel some independence in how she makes it happen. Stannis followed Mel's instructions up to burning his own daughter alive in order to satisfy some future goal. Seems to me it is like some math equation that has free will versus fate and on a Likert scale Jon is at one end while Cersei or Stannis are completely at the other end. Note: Even with the part about her death, as I understood the high valyrian explanation, there was no gender equivalent to the idea of 'little brother'. So little brother could mean male or female or de-sexed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted July 30, 2016 Author Share Posted July 30, 2016 48 minutes ago, Iron Mother said: THIS brings up another point of the prophet herself. The prophet cannot possibly see all the roads and tributaries that bring the conclusion to life............. she prolly only sees the end result in a random/visionary/singular way. Such as, I don't think The Maggy could say "you will blow up the Sept and therefore Tommen will jump and kill himself". She probably just sees the end result but not ALL the specific ways that lead to the end result. This, I find fascinating. I thank you for this deep analysis, maybe we are different you and I, there is the conclusion of a character's arc and there are the paths leading to this conclusion, in a way I'm a little bit sensitive to the fact that I know the end of a story in the middle of it, and as the story progresses, the number of the possible paths will decrease which make the story more predictable, example : if Jaime or Tyrion dies, we all will know that the other is who will kill Cersei, this is why I'm not a fan of spoiling the ends of the arcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 11 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said: I thank you for this deep analysis, maybe we are different you and I, there is the conclusion of a character's arc and there are the paths leading to this conclusion, in a way I'm a little bit sensitive to the fact that I know the end of a story in the middle of it, and as the story progresses, the number of the possible paths will decrease which make the story more predictable, example : if Jaime or Tyrion dies, we all will know that the other is who will kill Cersei, this is why I'm not a fan of spoiling the ends of the arcs I think there is going to be some big twist in this at least in the books, or at least I am hoping for one, although in the show everything seems to point at Jaime right now (Tyrion was always too obvious in my opinion). Yet again there are lots of discussions on this topic and many disagree that it is even one of them (her two brothers) and have various candidates for the role. Okay nitpicking a little here but, given the fact that people in GOT who die don't always stay dead, no death is foolproof that the other sibling would be the one for instance, so yes there is a spoiler element but I think there is going to be certainly a surprise somehow that I hope is difficult to guess. Now, just for argument say it would be interesting, talking in the context of Tyrion v Jaime; if Cersei were to, say, be told one was dead (and it was incorrect) and then suspected the other and hence brought about his wrath, would this change the prophecy? would we ever know? I think there has to be an element of free will involved but as it has been pointed out maybe it is that "free will" that could bring about it happening... Sorry probably this doesn't make a huge amount of sense if the outcome is the same but yes, I think the prophecies are there not to spoil at such but to show us something about how prophecy works in GRMM world. I also recall that somewhere, I think it was Tyrion, said something about how prophecy "appears" to help but indeed can do the opposite or something to that effect. Can't remember the exact quote off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsug Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 At the end of the day, we all know Maggy the Frog was created so George could make Cersei go insane quickly, after he ditched the five year time jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Mother Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 I seriously don't know if "The Volonqyr" was even mentioned in the show. But I DO know a hell of a lot more was mentioned about Arya killing her. How many times did we hear her repeat that list over and over, Cercei is the first one she mentions always. I think it will be Arya and not the Volonqyr. In the book, it will be different. 1 hour ago, lakin1013 said: I also disagree and for a different reason. I think as reader and viewer, we are supposed to compare and contrast those who live with prophecy-of-future and those who live with no input about their futures (like most of us). Cersei hears Maggy prophecy about her future and she (Cersei) makes it all happen (up to this point), without realizing it. For contrast, Jon has zero idea about who he even is or who his parents are, let alone his role in his life and the life of others (unlike most of us). Dany has some hints from the House of the Undying. She has a mission and a purpose but she seems to feel some independence in how she makes it happen. Stannis followed Mel's instructions up to burning his own daughter alive in order to satisfy some future goal. Seems to me it is like some math equation that has free will versus fate and on a Likert scale Jon is at one end while Cersei or Stannis are completely at the other end. Note: Even with the part about her death, as I understood the high valyrian explanation, there was no gender equivalent to the idea of 'little brother'. So little brother could mean male or female or de-sexed. But is Jon a "prophecy"? It's just a "truth" no one knows yet. And The Maggy prophecy was very specific in certain ways over many years of Cercei's life. If there is a prophecy of Jon's life, I don't know what that is yet. Does anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Mother Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 3 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said: or the death of tommen ( the little brother ) if the prophecy is true could be what set her demise and her actual death will still be surprising. The aftermath of Tommen (while dead) could in fact be Cercei's downfall. I could roll would that. But is that a little too convoluted when (again) "The Volonqyr" has not been mentioned in the show at all I don't think. If at all, a very small reference. So for me, the "Little Brother" part of the Maggy prophecy will not be part of the show, but will be in the book. In the book it's mentioned SO many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 I think it would be neat if it was revealed that Maggy was just able to see what people fear the most and that Cersei really did just do it to herself in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 7 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said: I can understand that the death of her children is a self-fulfilment, she was overprotective (despite my thinking that in the show, the causes of Joff and Myrcella deaths are completely unrelated to the self-fulfilment) and I can understand that Tyrion will kill her as self-fulfilment because she was afraid of him but the part of the YMBQ can't never be a self-fulfilment, there is no logic in it, Cersei don't have the power to make something like this to happen, the only way is to distort the entire reality, this is why I think it's a spoiler and not a self-fulfilling prophecy "Another, younger and more beautiful will cast you down and take all you hold dear" because of this Cersei has been suspicious and hostile of every woman she's met in her life. Instead of making friends or allies she ensures literally anyone who can, will be against her. In particular see how she acts around Marg and Sansa. It doesn't really matter who eventually takes her down (who, by the way, need not be a queen) - Cersei already ensured it would happen by isolating herself completely (due to trying to avoide the prophecy) I'm not one to defend Maggy the Frog but mostly I hate the book version because I feel the Valonquar part ruins Cersei and Tyrions relationship. She didn't need some stupid prophecy to hate and fear him. But GRRM probably just wanted it so he could have a twist with it turning out to be Jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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