M_Tootles Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 3 hours ago, Valyrian Spoon said: I guess Victarion's treatment of his Saltwife after being seduced/raped by Euron would count. damn skippy it would, divided though his heart may have been. That's like the "these go to 11" version of regular westerosi sexism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drekinn Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Do we really need to bring third wave feminism into asoiaf? Is this for your blog to prove the series is sexist towards women? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Storm Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Lysa is implicated to have visited Petyr while he was drunk and he thinks it was Cat. We all know Petyr manipulated and gained from their relationship in the end. Lysa is poorly treated by her father after. This is different to some of the others mentioned before as it wasn't for her gain but her true feelings to Petyr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Cersei is when it comes to her and Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoynestar Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 4 hours ago, Drekinn said: Do we really need to bring third wave feminism into asoiaf? Is this for your blog to prove the series is sexist towards women? Would you prefer second wave? :)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Flower Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 1 hour ago, rhoynestar said: Would you prefer second wave? :)) I think the poor women of Westeros are still waiting for the first wave of feminism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoynestar Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 6 hours ago, Wall Flower said: I think the poor women of Westeros are still waiting for the first wave of feminism. Yes, I meant third or second wave on the forum here. Although some might say a first wave would be welcome here as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 On 7/31/2016 at 8:55 PM, Drekinn said: Do we really need to bring third wave feminism into asoiaf? Is this for your blog to prove the series is sexist towards women? I actually think the series is angling to be profoundly anti-sexist. I'm talking about in-world stuff. But your reaction speaks volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 On Monday, 1 August 2016 at 9:55 AM, Drekinn said: Do we really need to bring third wave feminism into asoiaf? Is this for your blog to prove the series is sexist towards women? Those blogs already exist, I came across one the other day. (Apparently there's a thing called "fridging", which the series is guilty of. I can't imagine how tedious and unsatisfying it must be to be one of those social justice warrior types.) 3 hours ago, M_Tootles said: I actually think the series is angling to be profoundly anti-sexist. I'm talking about in-world stuff. But your reaction speaks volumes. How's it profound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 1 minute ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: How's it profound? Knee jerk anti-anti-sexism that missed the point of the post, which wasn't even beginning to suggest that the books are sexist, but that the characters in the books (intentionally) are. Googled fridging. I'd totally read an argument about that in ASOIAF. Sounds interesting. GRRM's heart's in the right place, but he's old, so I dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, M_Tootles said: Knee jerk anti-anti-sexism that missed the point of the post, which wasn't even beginning to suggest that the books are sexist, but that the characters in the books (intentionally) are. Googled fridging. I'd totally read an argument about that in ASOIAF. Sounds interesting. GRRM's heart's in the right place, but he's old, so I dunno. No, I mean, how are the books profoundly anti-sexist? I can see GRRM's feminism shining through but I don't get why there's any more to it than that. Edit: or do you just mean the books are, like, definitely anti-sexist? Completely anti-sexist? Re: GRRM's progressivism being outdated: he refers to himself as a "sex-positive feminist", which I gather some modern feminists take offence at it. (Again: I can't imagine how tedious and unsatisfying it must be to be one of those social justice warrior types.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 17 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: No, I mean, how are the books profoundly anti-sexist? I can see GRRM's feminism shining through but I don't get why there's any more to it than that. Edit: or do you just mean the books are, like, definitely anti-sexist? Completely anti-sexist? Re: GRRM's progressivism being outdated: he refers to himself as a "sex-positive feminist", which I gather some modern feminists take offence at it. (Again: I can't imagine how tedious and unsatisfying it must be to be one of those social justice warrior types.) I meant they INTEND to be strongly anti-sexist -- like, that's at the core of what he's trying to do -- but whether they'll succeed by most standards, I dunno. I think he tries to make his paradigmatic shitty female villain understandable and emphasize how she's a product of a deeply sexist culture and upbringing by a dick who cut his wife's tongue out and sent her to the silent sisters while telling her kids she's bed, for one thing. But more than that, I've found a few things lately that BIG things hang on a split between two sister's worldviews/descendants, with overt feminism a big part of that. FWIW, the OP stems from tinfoil in which a woman understanding that women will tend to be blamed for shit that ain't (all) their fault when it comes to sexing is important to explain motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, M_Tootles said: I meant they INTEND to be strongly anti-sexist -- like, that's at the core of what he's trying to do -- but whether they'll succeed by most standards, I dunno. I think he tries to make his paradigmatic shitty female villain understandable and emphasize how she's a product of a deeply sexist culture and upbringing by a dick who cut his wife's tongue out and sent her to the silent sisters while telling her kids she's bed, for one thing. But more than that, I've found a few things lately that BIG things hang on a split between two sister's worldviews/descendants, with overt feminism a big part of that. FWIW, the OP stems from tinfoil in which a woman understanding that women will tend to be blamed for shit that ain't (all) their fault when it comes to sexing is important to explain motivation. Rightio. Well, lemme know when you get the tinfoil ready, I'm always keen to read your stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 On 7/31/2016 at 3:50 AM, NorthernXY said: The first off the top of my head is Arianne Martell seducing Arys Oakheart. Doran isn't too happy with her after her failed coup for Myrcella for the Iron Throne. Doran has good reason to be unhappy (albeit Arianne has good reason to be unhappy with the way her father treated her). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 On 7/31/2016 at 11:29 AM, rhoynestar said: Serala of Myr, blamed for her husband's rebellion (not illicit relationship decisions, but still she likely took the fall because she was a foreigner with no family or reputation in Westeros to back her up). Would agree with many others, including obviously Tysha, and Rhaenyra's relationships. Mushroom paints her as pretty debauched since youth (partly due to Daemon?), but who knows who started what. Also Ellyn Reyne might be an example. No knowing what she was really like, but accounts blame her for trying to seduce Tytos. But we know the Lannisters hated her family's influence. And Jeyne Westerling has some potential to end up in history (esp in the North) as the woman who seduced and brought down the Young Wolf, either at her mother's behest or on her own. The Testament of Mushroom is a good example. Mushroom is eager to portray Rhaenyra as a precocious whore. From our point of view, (if Mushroom is correct) she was a girl being abused by two adults she loved and trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 On 31.07.2016 at 4:50 AM, NorthernXY said: The first off the top of my head is Arianne Martell seducing Arys Oakheart. Doran isn't too happy with her after her failed coup for Myrcella for the Iron Throne. Well, here Arianne is blamed for what in fact was her fault. And Doran's main concern was the kidnapping (and maiming) of Myrcella, not fucking Oakheart, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 8 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said: Well, here Arianne is blamed for what in fact was her fault. And Doran's main concern was the kidnapping (and maiming) of Myrcella, not fucking Oakheart, anyway. It's both their faults. Doran should never have kept his daughter in the dark about his plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 2 hours ago, M_Tootles said: I meant they INTEND to be strongly anti-sexist -- like, that's at the core of what he's trying to do -- ... But more than that, I've found a few things lately that BIG things hang on a split between two sister's worldviews/descendants, with overt feminism a big part of that. Oo oo! Is one of the descendants Good Queen Alysanne? Please tell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 1 minute ago, Seams said: Oo oo! Is one of the descendants Good Queen Alysanne? Please tell! All the way back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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