How to deal with the villains?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

In aSoIaF we come across various corrupted cultures like the Iron Borns, Dothrakis, people from Slaver’s Bay and for me the Valyrians too. At least in my opinion, one of the moral questions of the book is how someone can efficiently deal with those cultures and make the world a better place or at least to coerce them to accept the 21st century standards.

So far I can think about those options.

1.   Kill them all no matter how old, what gender or if they had done anything wrong.

2.   Punish those who had broken the law even before something became illegal but only people 16 years or older.

3.   Punish those who had broken the law only after something became illegal no matter what age and what gender.

4.   Punish those who had broken the law only after something became illegal. It applies only about adults and after certain time period during of which they were given the chance to change their way of living.

Personally I would had preferred option 4. What you would had chosen?

[John Doe]

17 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

3.   Punish those who had broken the law only after something became illegal no matter what age and what gender.

In a modern setting I'd choose option 4, in this medievalesque world I'd choose this option. Everything above is too harsh. 

[Lord Varys]

Considering that nobody in Martinworld accepts 21st century standards this question doesn't make any sense.

I don't think cultures can change in the few years the series covers. Some minor tweaks like the abolishment of slavery is perhaps possible but nobody is going to transform the Dothraki into some shepherds or change the feudal monarchy of Westeros into some democracy.

Not even if all the lords of Westeros would be killed. Then new lords would just rise from amongst the ranks of the commoners. This way of life is the only thing they know.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that nobody in Martinworld accepts 21st century standards this question doesn't make any sense.

I don't think cultures can change in the few years the series covers. Some minor tweaks like the abolishment of slavery is perhaps possible but nobody is going to transform the Dothraki into some shepherds or change the feudal monarchy of Westeros into some democracy.

Not even if all the lords of Westeros would be killed. Then new lords would just rise from amongst the ranks of the commoners. This way of life is the only thing they know.

Agreed, cultures and minds sometimes take decades, even generations, to transform.

No one can deny the fact that the Dothraki are a violent bunch and Dany coming with them to Vaes Dothrak and maybe proving to them that she can't be burned (and experiment which is going to fail) is not going to make them change their minds about their ways. She might intimidate them with her dragons and stop their behaviour for a while, but once she is not around, you'll see them returning to their ways very shortly.

In regards to abolishing slavery, it would make the world of Planetos better, but again, it is something that has to happen slowly. The main trade of many of the Free Cities is slavery and if you take away a country's main (or only) trade, the economy of that country will plummet and everyone, including the elites, will suffer.

Dany has a very idealised view of the world and she does genuinely want people to be happy, but it is not a realistic view of the world and if she carelessly acts out on her desire to change the world for the better, she might leave the world in a worse condition than it was when she came into it.

[White Ravens]

I don't understand the question here.  Why should we expect the cultures presented in these fantasy books to accept 21st century RL standards?

 

[Lion of the West]

As mentioned, 21st Century morales are not even on the map for the people of Westeros. Change will take centuries and must be kept up by generation after generation who must also fight off any and all attempts to return to the "good old days". An empowered nobility is not going to take restrictions to their power lying down and neither will merchant princes who gets a large part of their income from slavery etc. The Dothraki for example have to my knowledge no other trade or craft but fighting and getting riches through fighting means that aside from raiding there's only mercenary work left for them, and it won't take a genius to see that rather than getting paid you can use your violent talents to take the money directly.

But Westeros can absolutely be moulded towards the modern world, but its a long journey and the closest to it is the history of the Iron Islands, and that shows it will be a hard and long struggle.

[Lurid Jester]

6 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

At least in my opinion, one of the moral questions of the book is how someone can efficiently deal with those cultures and make the world a better place or at least to coerce them to accept the 21st century standards.

This is a nonsensical question you are posing.  First off, make the world a better place? According to whom?   

The whole "coerce them to accept the 21st century standards" is a joke right?  Ignoring the fact that no one in Planetos/MartinWorld would even know what that means, the 21st century is far from ideal.  I could write pages of examples of people doing abhorrent things (abhorrent to me) to others while confident in their own moral rightness.  

 

 

[Lord Lannister]

Yeah, I can't call this a fair question at all. It's like asking Archimedes why he couldn't invent a combustion engine.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Wait 500 years. That's how long it took OUR world to get to 21 century standards and morals. And honestly, even the morals we have are not universal to all people in the world.

The only ways to effectively and quickly make the kind of changes you're suggesting are morally repugnant to any decent 21st century person.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

The only way to ensure such a thing would be a wholesale slaughter of the offending cultures. Which is rather antithetical to the whole "better world, better standards" thing that you're looking for.

Otherwise, it's impossible. Unless you utterly destroy their cultures, such changes will have to take place over decades, centuries even.

You'd have to have some kind of unbeatable, unkillable perfect weapon to ensure that anyone would agree to your changes, anyway. It's just not something people would go along with quietly. Such a change will happen only over a great amount of time, or with almost a genocide, leaving only those who already have the so called morals that you're looking for.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

nvm 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that nobody in Martinworld accepts 21st century standards this question doesn't make any sense.

6 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I don't understand the question here.  Why should we expect the cultures presented in these fantasy books to accept 21st century RL standards?

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

As mentioned, 21st Century morales are not even on the map for the people of Westeros.

6 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

The whole "coerce them to accept the 21st century standards" is a joke right?  

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Yeah, I can't call this a fair question at all. It's like asking Archimedes why he couldn't invent a combustion engine.

I have mentioned the 21st century standards because the fans use these standards when they want to explain their fav characters actions. So if a fan can apply those standards in other cases I see no problem to do the same here. 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Agreed, cultures and minds sometimes take decades, even generations, to transform.

No one can deny the fact that the Dothraki are a violent bunch and Dany coming with them to Vaes Dothrak and maybe proving to them that she can't be burned (and experiment which is going to fail) is not going to make them change their minds about their ways. She might intimidate them with her dragons and stop their behaviour for a while, but once she is not around, you'll see them returning to their ways very shortly.

Well, the Dothraki seem to be able to change if the lot Dany already has under her control are any indication. They no longer practice slavery since they witnessed the birth of the dragons. If Dany became the living god of all the Dothraki - and if she actually forced all the Dothraki to leave the Dothraki Sea - then their traditional way of life would be at an end.

This doesn't mean that they would suddenly become expert farmers and all, nor is it likely that they would end their warrior ways at once, but I actually doubt that they would continue to rape women or enslave people.

8 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

In regards to abolishing slavery, it would make the world of Planetos better, but again, it is something that has to happen slowly. The main trade of many of the Free Cities is slavery and if you take away a country's main (or only) trade, the economy of that country will plummet and everyone, including the elites, will suffer.

The main trade of the cities in Slaver's Bay is slavery. But they are not likely to survive the next book intact. Astapor has already been sacked and burned by the Yunkai'i and Dany is not likely to show mercy to Yunkai after her return. And she certainly will punish the Harpy and her allies quite severely, too.

I imagine both Yunkai and Meereen will be burned and destroyed, and only the people who actually join Dany will be allowed to live and go to Westeros with her.

If Dany ends up in charge of all the Dothraki she could deal the slave trade another major blow by commanding a few khalasars to attack and destroy Qarth. After all, the Qartheen declared war on her and should technically not be allowed to get away with that. And once the Volantene slave soldiers have joined Dany's people at Meereen they could use their ships as well as the Iron Fleet to actually bring the war to New Ghis, too. It is very unlikely that they or the other Yunkish allies will simply get away unpunished.

8 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Dany has a very idealised view of the world and she does genuinely want people to be happy, but it is not a realistic view of the world and if she carelessly acts out on her desire to change the world for the better, she might leave the world in a worse condition than it was when she came into it.

Whether the utter destruction of the slave trade is going to be a bad thing remains to be seen. The Free Cities certainly could profit if the lower classes are actually no longer mere chattel but are paid for the work they are doing. And you have to keep in mind that merely the destruction of the slaver cities as well as the departure of the Dothraki should effectively deal a mortal blow to the slave trade. Most of the slaves the cities at Slaver's Bay trained were given to them by the Dothraki. If there are no longer any Dothraki there are no new slaves to be trained. Even if Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen remained intact they would have to change their ways at least to a degree.

[Kandrax]

On 31.7.2016. at 11:10 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

In aSoIaF we come across various corrupted cultures like the Iron Borns, Dothrakis, people from Slaver’s Bay and for me the Valyrians too. At least in my opinion, one of the moral questions of the book is how someone can efficiently deal with those cultures and make the world a better place or at least to coerce them to accept the 21st century standards.

So far I can think about those options.

1.   Kill them all no matter how old, what gender or if they had done anything wrong.

2.   Punish those who had broken the law even before something became illegal but only people 16 years or older.

3.   Punish those who had broken the law only after something became illegal no matter what age and what gender.

4.   Punish those who had broken the law only after something became illegal. It applies only about adults and after certain time period during of which they were given the chance to change their way of living.

Personally I would had preferred option 4. What you would had chosen?

4

[LordMiddleFinger]

On 7/31/2016 at 11:10 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

In aSoIaF we come across various corrupted cultures like the Iron Borns, Dothrakis, people from Slaver’s Bay and for me the Valyrians too. At least in my opinion, one of the moral questions of the book is how someone can efficiently deal with those cultures and make the world a better place or at least to coerce them to accept the 21st century standards.

So far I can think about those options.

1.   Kill them all no matter how old, what gender or if they had done anything wrong.

2.   Punish those who had broken the law even before something became illegal but only people 16 years or older.

3.   Punish those who had broken the law only after something became illegal no matter what age and what gender.

4.   Punish those who had broken the law only after something became illegal. It applies only about adults and after certain time period during of which they were given the chance to change their way of living.

Personally I would had preferred option 4. What you would had chosen?

Option 1 sounds like the "Final Solution" type of scenario. 
Anyway I'd go with option 3. But when it comes to people like the Boltons, The Freys, all of the Dothraki savages... I'd go with option 1.

 BTW what if the person in power ( the King, Lord and/or Lady ) charged with enforcing these laws is a corrupt cunt who commits the exact same crimes? What then?

[elder brother jonothor dar]

On Sunday, July 31, 2016 at 10:10 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

In aSoIaF we come across various corrupted cultures like the Iron Borns, Dothrakis, people from Slaver’s Bay and for me the Valyrians too. At least in my opinion, one of the moral questions of the book is how someone can efficiently deal with those cultures and make the world a better place or at least to coerce them to accept the 21st century standards.

So far I can think about those options.

1.   Kill them all no matter how old, what gender or if they had done anything wrong.

2.   Punish those who had broken the law even before something became illegal but only people 16 years or older.

3.   Punish those who had broken the law only after something became illegal no matter what age and what gender.

4.   Punish those who had broken the law only after something became illegal. It applies only about adults and after certain time period during of which they were given the chance to change their way of living.

Personally I would had preferred option 4. What you would had chosen?

Who's law?

Conquest and strenght of arms seems a universal law.

Westeros has outlawed slavery as has Bravos, if they can conquer others they can impose their own laws like Dany did.  If the free cities conquerd Westeros slavery would be legal.

Robert was a traitor until he was the King.  I'm not sure how the law will help to change a culture.  Is what the Dothraki do any worse than what happens during the Wto5k?

[Sourjapes]

Trying to make a medieval (or some cases older) culture live up to modern standards is an exercise in futility.

 

The best thing you can do is implement gradual change in small ways. For example in Westoros get the lords to agree (might have to arm twist and bribe some) that smallfolk have a few basic rights that are codified into law. While you are at it, ensure that the laws of the nobility are also written down somewhere. Abolishing the "Lord's Right" was a step in this direction. Next I'd try end Trial by Combat and/or ensure that even smallfolk must be convicted on a crime based on some criteria.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

On 7/31/2016 at 6:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

Considering that nobody in Martinworld accepts 21st century standards this question doesn't make any sense.

I don't think cultures can change in the few years the series covers. Some minor tweaks like the abolishment of slavery is perhaps possible but nobody is going to transform the Dothraki into some shepherds or change the feudal monarchy of Westeros into some democracy.

Not even if all the lords of Westeros would be killed. Then new lords would just rise from amongst the ranks of the commoners. This way of life is the only thing they know.

Bingo 

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

On 8/1/2016 at 6:52 AM, Lord Varys said:

Well, the Dothraki seem to be able to change if the lot Dany already has under her control are any indication. They no longer practice slavery since they witnessed the birth of the dragons. If Dany became the living god of all the Dothraki - and if she actually forced all the Dothraki to leave the Dothraki Sea - then their traditional way of life would be at an end.

This doesn't mean that they would suddenly become expert farmers and all, nor is it likely that they would end their warrior ways at once, but I actually doubt that they would continue to rape women or enslave people.

The main trade of the cities in Slaver's Bay is slavery. But they are not likely to survive the next book intact. Astapor has already been sacked and burned by the Yunkai'i and Dany is not likely to show mercy to Yunkai after her return. And she certainly will punish the Harpy and her allies quite severely, too.

I imagine both Yunkai and Meereen will be burned and destroyed, and only the people who actually join Dany will be allowed to live and go to Westeros with her.

If Dany ends up in charge of all the Dothraki she could deal the slave trade another major blow by commanding a few khalasars to attack and destroy Qarth. After all, the Qartheen declared war on her and should technically not be allowed to get away with that. And once the Volantene slave soldiers have joined Dany's people at Meereen they could use their ships as well as the Iron Fleet to actually bring the war to New Ghis, too. It is very unlikely that they or the other Yunkish allies will simply get away unpunished.

Whether the utter destruction of the slave trade is going to be a bad thing remains to be seen. The Free Cities certainly could profit if the lower classes are actually no longer mere chattel but are paid for the work they are doing. And you have to keep in mind that merely the destruction of the slaver cities as well as the departure of the Dothraki should effectively deal a mortal blow to the slave trade. Most of the slaves the cities at Slaver's Bay trained were given to them by the Dothraki. If there are no longer any Dothraki there are no new slaves to be trained. Even if Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen remained intact they would have to change their ways at least to a degree.

Sure Danny has certainly changed the Dothraki people, but what about Post-Danny Dothraki?  In your assumption, where are the Dothraki going?  Would the Dothraki be fine with giving up their culture and being absorbed into a different one?  Under the power of the Iron Throne, the Ironborn were forced to give up their old ways, but they seem to eventually desire the old ways.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Yet Another ASOIAF Fan said:

Sure Danny has certainly changed the Dothraki people, but what about Post-Danny Dothraki?  In your assumption, where are the Dothraki going?  Would the Dothraki be fine with giving up their culture and being absorbed into a different one?  Under the power of the Iron Throne, the Ironborn were forced to give up their old ways, but they seem to eventually desire the old ways.

I expect the number of the Dothraki to be drastically reduced in the coming wars. Those back in the Dothraki Sea (if any remain there) might rediscover their old way of life in the decades to come, but those going with Dany to Westeros and surviving there will likely adapt to the way of life there.

The Ironborn and wildlings are likely going to drastically reduced in numbers, too. Euron's wars and the first real attacks on the Wall by the Others will see to that. And with them their ways of life will pretty much die. If Asha ends up in charge of the Ironborn in the end - which is not unlikely - it will be the final nail in the coffin of the Old Way...