Why is Stannis an Appealing Character?

[thi4f]

It comes from books, and Book Stannis is one of a kind. I truly think he is more unique than Jon Snow, Daenerys and some other main characters. Shame he was robbed of so many potentially great scenes and dialogues.

[Cron]

On 8/1/2016 at 3:20 AM, AugustusTheGreat said:

There seems to be a strange liking for Stannis Baratheon from a lot of fans, almost to the point where people like him as their favorite character. As of re watching season 2, 3, and 4, I seem to have developed that liking as well, but I cant really explain it.

Tyrion, Littlefinger, Tywin, and Vary are all liked for their pure intellect, cleverness, and awesome egos. Dany and Jon are both pure, acting for the goodness of others and are textbook heros.

But Stannis is something completely different. In a way he is pure, but isnt graceful, clever, or funny at all. He is blunt and awkward, and is blind to his faults at times. He burns his daughter and has an affair with Melisande, and he really only acts as a hero once when he defeats the wildlings. 

Can someone explain what makes him appealing? I still cant figure it out. 

I was fine with Stannis through most of the story (I had no problem with what he did to Renly, Renly was a usurper, plain and simple, he didn't even have a CLAIM to a better claim to the throne than Stannis, and as far as Stannis' sex with Melisandre is concerned, well, Selyse didn't care, so why should I?  That's between them, as far as I'm concerned.)

But when Stannis participated in the burning of Shireen...i was appalled, both b/c of the nature of the act, and b/c I thought it was inconsistent with Stannis' true character (check the scenes from Season 5 when Stannis is talking with Shireen, and it's clear how much he did love her, and how, when she was a baby, he risked all their lives to keep her close by while they searched for a cure for her greyscale)

But what's done is done.

[Lord Stannis-The True King]

I love Stannis' story. He's an honorable man who always does what he thinks is right regardless of the consequences. He's like Ned Stark in that way. Only in the end Ned sacrificed his honor and his duty for the safety of his family. Stannis did not. He never compromised his beliefs. Not for family. Not for anything. It's like Maester Aemon said "Love is the death of duty". Not for Stannis. He was one man in a million. His ideals were never compromised. The rule of law, the safety of the Kingdom. These were the things Stannis fought for. Let's look at some of his major actions.

During Robbert's Rebellion he held Storm's End against famine and siege. It wasn't glorious. He did it because it needed to be done. Because his elder brother ordered him to. When the war was over Robert gave Storm's End to Renly and DragonStone to Stannis. An obvious insult. He was never respected or loved. But through it all he did his duty. Never fought his brothers, accepted every insult. He never wanted to be King. He takes that role because it is his right. He IS the King. Something Ned Stark whole heartedly agreed with. In fact, it could be said Ned Stark died for Stannis' claim. 

He kills his brother. True. But, people forget that Renly committed treason by stealing his brother's banner men and advancing his inferior claim to the throne. Stannis gave him the opportunity to surrender, and even offered to name Renly his heir. He refused. The punishment for treason is death. Stannis was within his rights by all the laws of gods and men to kill Renly and take back his banner men. 

He marched on Kings Landing to depose the Lannisters. I can't see how anyone could argue this was a villainous move. The Lannisters are corrupt, opportunistic, incestous backstabbers. The world would have been a better place had Stannis succeeded and mounted their heads on spikes. Joffry was insane and a practicing sadist. How anyone (in the fandom) would side with Joffry over Stannis is completely beyond me.

When the Night's Watch sent ravens to every Lord in the Seven Kingdoms asking for assistance to combat the White Walkers Stannis was the only one to answer. He took the threat seriously. He saw it as more important than any other conflict. Without Stannis the Night's Watch would have been destroyed by the Wildling army. And without Stannis' Navy those in Hardholm would not have been able to retreat. He saved both the Night's Watch and the Free Folk. 

He burned Mance Rayder. But, he gave him every opportunity to avoid that fate. He even promised to give his people land and titles south of the wall. He refused. He took up arms against the Night's Watch. That is treason. The penalty for treason is death. Simple as that.

Stannis wanted to combat the White Walker threat, but needed the combined armies of the Seven Kingdoms to do it. He was fighting for the future of the entire world. He was a logical and righteous man who has seen first hand the power of magic in this world. The miracles Melisandre preformed speak for themselves. How can you doubt the power of a god that actually affects our world. The shadow creature, the visions and prophecies. How can any logical man deny the existence of the fire god in that scenario. He burned his daughter. But, we forget the context. His army was stuck in the snow. Winter had arrived. There would have been no thaw. He could not march forward or go back. His people were dying. His army starved and turned to cannibilism. What were his options? Magic was the only one. He offered his daughter, and the snow thawed. He did the only thing he could to benefit the most people. He was thinking not only of his army but of the Seven Kingdoms. Stannis was the only ruler who could unite the Seven Kingdoms, who would devote every resource to combat the dead threatening to overrun all of humanity. He was our Savior! In that context, the life of one person, even his daughter was an acceptable sacrifice. And even if he didn't, what would have happened? They would have died in the snow starving and unable to move camp. She would have died either way.

His story is a tragedy. He was the only man with a right to the throne. The only man who could unite humanity against the dead threatening to eradicate us all. He was, in the end, defeated by winter above all things. He was a righteous man who always did what was right. A just man that never compromised his ideals. A logical man that didn't let love interfere with duty. He was the King we deserved. The man who would do what had to be done to save the most people, regardless of the consequences. Stannis was a brilliant military commander with over 20 years experience. In every engagement we saw he always LEAD his men into battle. He was the first to touch land during the Battle of the Blackwatter. He was the first up the latters at King's Landing. He never asked anything of his men that he was not willing to do himself. Even in the end, with just a handful of soldiers and no cavlry he lead the charge against the Boltons at Winterfell… AND SURVIVED! He fucking survived! And when Brianne of Tarth asked him if he had killed his brother he answered honestly. He never hid from the truth. Unlike Brianne, who let loyalty to a man that showed her kindness blind her to the realities of the world. Renly committed treason, and Stannis was the only man alive who could unite the Seven Kingdoms against the real threat facing the world. And to cap it all off she killed him with a sword melted down from the sword of the man who died to honor Stannis' claim. To who's wife she later pledged herself to. To who's daughter's she was tasked with protecting. And gilded with Lannister gold. The same family that executed Ned Stark and Stole the throne from Stannis in the first place. Had I been in Stannis' place I would have died laughing at the absurdity of it all. But that's Game of Thrones for you. The just and the righteous rarely live to see victory. But, at least he died with his honor intact, fighting for what was right. Not even Ned Stark can say that. 

[Stannis is the man....nis]

25 minutes ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

I love Stannis' story. He's an honorable man who always does what he thinks is right regardless of the consequences. He's like Ned Stark in that way. Only in the end Ned sacrificed his honor and his duty for the safety of his family. Stannis did not. He never compromised his beliefs. Not for family. Not for anything. It's like Maester Aemon said "Love is the death of duty". Not for Stannis. He was one man in a million. His ideals were never compromised. The rule of law, the safety of the Kingdom. These were the things Stannis fought for. Let's look at some of his major actions.

During Robbert's Rebellion he held Storm's End against famine and siege. It wasn't glorious. He did it because it needed to be done. Because his elder brother ordered him to. When the war was over Robert gave Storm's End to Renly and DragonStone to Stannis. An obvious insult. He was never respected or loved. But through it all he did his duty. Never fought his brothers, accepted every insult. He never wanted to be King. He takes that role because it is his right. He IS the King. Something Ned Stark whole heartedly agreed with. In fact, it could be said Ned Stark died for Stannis' claim. 

He kills his brother. True. But, people forget that Renly committed treason by stealing his brother's banner men and advancing his inferior claim to the throne. Stannis gave him the opportunity to surrender, and even offered to name Renly his heir. He refused. The punishment for treason is death. Stannis was within his rights by all the laws of gods and men to kill Renly and take back his banner men. 

He marched on Kings Landing to depose the Lannisters. I can't see how anyone could argue this was a villainous move. The Lannisters are corrupt, opportunistic, incestous backstabbers. The world would have been a better place had Stannis succeeded and mounted their heads on spikes. Joffry was insane and a practicing sadist. How anyone (in the fandom) would side with Joffry over Stannis is completely beyond me.

When the Night's Watch sent ravens to every Lord in the Seven Kingdoms asking for assistance to combat the White Walkers Stannis was the only one to answer. He took the threat seriously. He saw it as more important than any other conflict. Without Stannis the Night's Watch would have been destroyed by the Wildling army. And without Stannis' Navy those in Hardholm would not have been able to retreat. He saved both the Night's Watch and the Free Folk. 

He burned Mance Rayder. But, he gave him every opportunity to avoid that fate. He even promised to give his people land and titles south of the wall. He refused. He took up arms against the Night's Watch. That is treason. The penalty for treason is death. Simple as that.

Stannis wanted to combat the White Walker threat, but needed the combined armies of the Seven Kingdoms to do it. He was fighting for the future of the entire world. He was a logical and righteous man who has seen first hand the power of magic in this world. The miracles Melisandre preformed speak for themselves. How can you doubt the power of a god that actually affects our world. The shadow creature, the visions and prophecies. How can any logical man deny the existence of the fire god in that scenario. He burned his daughter. But, we forget the context. His army was stuck in the snow. Winter had arrived. There would have been no thaw. He could not march forward or go back. His people were dying. His army starved and turned to cannibilism. What were his options? Magic was the only one. He offered his daughter, and the snow thawed. He did the only thing he could to benefit the most people. He was thinking not only of his army but of the Seven Kingdoms. Stannis was the only ruler who could unite the Seven Kingdoms, who would devote every resource to combat the dead threatening to overrun all of humanity. He was our Savior! In that context, the life of one person, even his daughter was an acceptable sacrifice to save the world. And even if he didn't, what would have happened? They would have died in the snow starving and unable to move camp. She would have died either way.

His story is a tragedy. He was the only man with a right to the throne. The only man who could unite humanity against the dead threatening to eradicate us all. He was, in the end, defeated by winter above all things. He was a righteous man who always did what was right. A just man that never compromised his ideals. A logical man that didn't let love interfere with duty. He was the King we deserved. The man who would do what had to be done to save the most people, regardless of the consequences. Stannis was a brilliant military commander with over 20 years experience. In every engagement we saw he always LEAD his men into battle. He was the first to touch land during the Battle of the Blackwatter. He was the first up the latters at King's Landing. Even in the end, with just a handful of soldiers and no cavlry he lead the charge against the Boltons at Winterfell… AND SURVIVED! He fucking survived! And when Brianne of Tarth asked him if he had killed his brother he answered honestly. He never hid from the truth. Unlike Brianne, who let loyalty to a man that showed her kindness blind her to the realities of the world. Renly committed treason, and Stannis was the only man alive who could unite the Seven Kingdoms against the real threat facing the world. And to cap it all off she killed him with a sword melted down from the sword of the man who died to honor Stannis' claim. To who's wife she later pledged herself to. To who's daughter's she was tasked with protecting. And gilded with Lannister gold. The same family that executed Ned Stark and Stole the throne from Stannis in the first place. Had I been in Stannis' place I would have died laughing at the absurdity of it all. But that's Game of Thrones for you. The just and the righteous rarely live to see victory. But, at least he died with his honor intact, fighting for what was right. Not even Ned Stark can say that. 

*slow clap*

[JLE]

Much of the appreciation for Stannis comes from the books where:

(1) Not only has he not burned his daughter yet, but he *can't* - they are hundreds of miles apart: Stannis left Shireen, and Selyse, and Melisandre, all at the Wall, while he went off to fight the Boltons at Winterfell.

(2) Brienne is not *in* the north to kill Stannis, and shows no prospect of ever going there, since Sansa Stark has not been sent to Ramsay: Ramsay's marriage is to a fake "Arya", not even the real one, and Brienne at least knows that it can't be the real one, because the real Arya was still alive and travelling with Sandor Clegane (although she has since disappeared) AFTER Ramsay's bride was sent northwards from King's Landing. As for Sansa, her whereabouts isn't known but Brienne suspects (correctly) that the most likely place is still the Vale - which is in fact exactly where Sansa still is: but Brienne is currently prisoner of, or beholden to, the outlaw Brotherhood Without Banners in the *western* Riverlands.

(3) Stannis, no longer travelling with Melisandre, has never yet burned anyone on religious grounds (Melisandre and Selyse have done so in his absence), only convicted *criminals* - for various crimes including murder, treason and even (more recently) cannibalism. And more recently he has said "there will be no more burnings": and if anything appears to be on the point of being persuaded to pay respect to the Northern Old Gods rather than R'hllor. He is no religious fanatic and never has been, he's actually an atheist who has been prepared to use a religion to his purposes. He is also NOT planning a direct frontal assault on Winterfell, unlike in the TV series, and appears to have some stratagem up his sleeve.

(4) But all the *good* things about him are still true, including the coming north to the Wall to save the Watch and cut a deal with the Wildlings so that the kingdom can unite against the real threat of the Others.

(5) Yes, he had Renly killed (although it's not entirely certain that he knew how it was to be achieved). Renly was a traitor, and the punishment for treachery is well-known. As Stannis points out: Followers of Joffrey lived and died believing him to be a trueborn Baratheon. Followers of Robb Stark lived and died with at least some right behind the cause of Northern independence (since Robb did not actually seek the crown of King's Landing). But every single man who followed Renly, did so knowing him for a rebel, no matter who was the rightful king that he rebelled against.

[MoreOrLess]

6 hours ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

I love Stannis' story. He's an honorable man who always does what he thinks is right regardless of the consequences. He's like Ned Stark in that way. Only in the end Ned sacrificed his honor and his duty for the safety of his family. Stannis did not. He never compromised his beliefs. Not for family. Not for anything. It's like Maester Aemon said "Love is the death of duty". Not for Stannis. He was one man in a million. His ideals were never compromised. The rule of law, the safety of the Kingdom. These were the things Stannis fought for. Let's look at some of his major actions.

During Robbert's Rebellion he held Storm's End against famine and siege. It wasn't glorious. He did it because it needed to be done. Because his elder brother ordered him to. When the war was over Robert gave Storm's End to Renly and DragonStone to Stannis. An obvious insult. He was never respected or loved. But through it all he did his duty. Never fought his brothers, accepted every insult. He never wanted to be King. He takes that role because it is his right. He IS the King. Something Ned Stark whole heartedly agreed with. In fact, it could be said Ned Stark died for Stannis' claim. 

He kills his brother. True. But, people forget that Renly committed treason by stealing his brother's banner men and advancing his inferior claim to the throne. Stannis gave him the opportunity to surrender, and even offered to name Renly his heir. He refused. The punishment for treason is death. Stannis was within his rights by all the laws of gods and men to kill Renly and take back his banner men. 

He marched on Kings Landing to depose the Lannisters. I can't see how anyone could argue this was a villainous move. The Lannisters are corrupt, opportunistic, incestous backstabbers. The world would have been a better place had Stannis succeeded and mounted their heads on spikes. Joffry was insane and a practicing sadist. How anyone (in the fandom) would side with Joffry over Stannis is completely beyond me.

When the Night's Watch sent ravens to every Lord in the Seven Kingdoms asking for assistance to combat the White Walkers Stannis was the only one to answer. He took the threat seriously. He saw it as more important than any other conflict. Without Stannis the Night's Watch would have been destroyed by the Wildling army. And without Stannis' Navy those in Hardholm would not have been able to retreat. He saved both the Night's Watch and the Free Folk. 

He burned Mance Rayder. But, he gave him every opportunity to avoid that fate. He even promised to give his people land and titles south of the wall. He refused. He took up arms against the Night's Watch. That is treason. The penalty for treason is death. Simple as that.

Stannis wanted to combat the White Walker threat, but needed the combined armies of the Seven Kingdoms to do it. He was fighting for the future of the entire world. He was a logical and righteous man who has seen first hand the power of magic in this world. The miracles Melisandre preformed speak for themselves. How can you doubt the power of a god that actually affects our world. The shadow creature, the visions and prophecies. How can any logical man deny the existence of the fire god in that scenario. He burned his daughter. But, we forget the context. His army was stuck in the snow. Winter had arrived. There would have been no thaw. He could not march forward or go back. His people were dying. His army starved and turned to cannibilism. What were his options? Magic was the only one. He offered his daughter, and the snow thawed. He did the only thing he could to benefit the most people. He was thinking not only of his army but of the Seven Kingdoms. Stannis was the only ruler who could unite the Seven Kingdoms, who would devote every resource to combat the dead threatening to overrun all of humanity. He was our Savior! In that context, the life of one person, even his daughter was an acceptable sacrifice. And even if he didn't, what would have happened? They would have died in the snow starving and unable to move camp. She would have died either way.

His story is a tragedy. He was the only man with a right to the throne. The only man who could unite humanity against the dead threatening to eradicate us all. He was, in the end, defeated by winter above all things. He was a righteous man who always did what was right. A just man that never compromised his ideals. A logical man that didn't let love interfere with duty. He was the King we deserved. The man who would do what had to be done to save the most people, regardless of the consequences. Stannis was a brilliant military commander with over 20 years experience. In every engagement we saw he always LEAD his men into battle. He was the first to touch land during the Battle of the Blackwatter. He was the first up the latters at King's Landing. He never asked anything of his men that he was not willing to do himself. Even in the end, with just a handful of soldiers and no cavlry he lead the charge against the Boltons at Winterfell… AND SURVIVED! He fucking survived! And when Brianne of Tarth asked him if he had killed his brother he answered honestly. He never hid from the truth. Unlike Brianne, who let loyalty to a man that showed her kindness blind her to the realities of the world. Renly committed treason, and Stannis was the only man alive who could unite the Seven Kingdoms against the real threat facing the world. And to cap it all off she killed him with a sword melted down from the sword of the man who died to honor Stannis' claim. To who's wife she later pledged herself to. To who's daughter's she was tasked with protecting. And gilded with Lannister gold. The same family that executed Ned Stark and Stole the throne from Stannis in the first place. Had I been in Stannis' place I would have died laughing at the absurdity of it all. But that's Game of Thrones for you. The just and the righteous rarely live to see victory. But, at least he died with his honor intact, fighting for what was right. Not even Ned Stark can say that. 

Alot of good points there, Stannis certainly isnt sposed to be viewed as som kind of monster in the fashion of Joffery or Ramsay or even as selfish as Tywin with his obcession with his own legacy. However I would say the issue with Stannis is that he becomes too locked into chasing what he views as the greater good(some ambition is definately mixed in though) to the exclusion of personal compassion. The intension beng I would say if you comprimise too much of your personal morality how can you work for the greater good? how can you inspire others?

What I think makes the Stannis story in season 5 espeically so effective is exactly because its tragic on both sides, Obviously Shireen dying is tragic but that she's the one person Stannis really cares about on a personal level means he's essentially burning his own humanity as well for the suposed "greater good". By the time Brienne shows up its not her judging him IMHO, he knows what he's done and judges himself for it offering no defence.

You could definately argue the opposite is true for the Starks, Cat espeically values family in a selfish way that doesnt look out for the greater good. They tend to be more driven by existsing biases as well I would say mistrusting all Lannisters reguardless of their actions where as at least Stannis judges by action alone.

[Lord Stannis-The True King]

Yah. I always saw his sigil as poetic symbolism. The burning heart. Shireen was the only person he ever loved, and quite possibly the only person who ever loved him. When he burned Shireen he burned his heart. Tragic symmetry.

[JonSnow4President]

Basically, it comes down to this.  Show Stannis is motivated by ambition, to the point where he will burn his own daughter for his ambition (D&D's own words in an outside the episode).  Book Stannis is motivated, particularly post Blackwater, by his duty. (Neither is 100%, but I'm talking about what the overriding motivation is).  

That change in motivations drastically changes the judgment of the characters actions.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Stannis is mostly appealing to me as I am pro Stark and despite the Testicle Blood Leach Magic, The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend. Stannis, so long as he kills the enemies of my favorites, he is appealing.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

On 8/16/2016 at 6:17 AM, Blackphillip said:

Show Stanis: I like him as a villain.  Like how one can read history and be fascinated with men such as Stalin, Hitler, Charlemagne.

The problem is even looking at just Stannis' show only character I have a hard time viewing him as a villain. From day one, even right up to and including when he burns Shireen, more often than not it's conceivable that he has good reasons for what he does. The problem is D&D could never seem to decide what those reasons were. D&D go on about how Stannis is all about "ambition", and yet they still included that speech about him doing his duty in Season 3. So which is it?

Not to mention how his apparent "fanaticism" was handled, like in one episode they make it pretty obvious Stannis is questioning his belief in R'hllor, then in the next he's all gung ho about burning people. The writing for the character really just wasn't very good, and its pretty obvious D&D never gave a shit about him/were just trying to get him off the table as quickly as possible.

[Dolorous Gabe]

I agree that most of his fandom comes from the books.

I do think the brilliance of Stephen Dillane may have had a role in gaining many show only fans of his.

[RhaenysBee]

He isn't.

An appealing character, that is. To me, that is. 

Stephen Dillane did some justice to the character, but I swear his death gave me more satisfaction than Joffrey's and Ramsay's combined. 

But then I know this is a question as old as time and as old as Is Daenerys an evil mad queen and Was Rhaegar cool and Is *insert any two names* relationship romantic... A question we must agree to disagree on. Which is not always easy... Like, often bloody damn difficult, because obviously I'm right - thought everybody always. 

[Victarion_Mackey]

For me, I just loved Stephen Dillane's portrayal, even though I was rather confused as to what the point of his character was in S3 and the majority of S4. Saving the Night's Watch in the finale though was probably my favourite moment of the show and skyrocketed his character in my view. So of course, words cannot express my disappointment at what a complete and utter anti-climax his S5 storyline ended up being.

The silver lining though, is that's why I decided to read the books

[Future Null Infinity]

What mysterious about the story of the character Stannis is the purpose, why it was written that way? two things come in mind :

• To show what Tyrion really is, a good thinker and a genius military commander who fought his first war with 0 military experience against the most experienced and courageous commander in Westeros and won (in other terms, to show us that Tyrion is a mary sue)
• A mere plot device to connect the characters of Jon and Melisandre for the resurrection purpose

[Lord Gelgar]

I just want to remind everyone that just because the show makes a decision, it doesn't mean that the books will happen the same way. It's very telling that D&D went out of their way to make sure Stannis had no northern allies in his show plot. No battle of Deepwood Mott to secure alliances with other houses, specifically house Mormont. Wyman Manderly cut out almost entirely, a man who may very well be the real creator of Frey pie! In the released Theon chapter Stannis mentions that all Roose has to do was wait for Stannis to engage his army at Winterfell or for his men to starve and mutiny, which what happens conveniently in the show, literally the exact opposite of Stannis's plan. All of this really happened imo to suck all of the intrigue out of the northern plot and have a ridiculous black vs white, good vs evil showdown between two fan favorites and some of the most formulaic and predictable story telling in the whole series, forgive me if I feel they missed the point of this story. On the topic of Shireen if Stannis himself is to burn Shireen then he must take Winterfell as Selyse, Shireen and Mel are still at the wall and the snows are closing in rapidly. I can't imagine any one taking Shireen to the war camp as it would be a very treacherous journey and to a place with barely any supplies, no Winterfell is a much more likely location as they will have enough provisions to facilitate travel to the wall. One last thing I would like to mention is the show is not afraid to piggyback some one else's arc with a fan favorite character, Barristan Selmy was short changed so they could shoehorn Tyrion into Dany's plot. I think the same thing was done with Jon and Stannis, the books have a much grittier and nuanced battle for the north coming while the show opted for croud pleasing fluff! So fellow Mannis fans fear not for there may be at least one victory and suprise twist for him in Winds! 

[Stannis is the man....nis]

1 hour ago, Lord Gelgar said:

I just want to remind everyone that just because the show makes a decision, it doesn't mean that the books will happen the same way. It's very telling that D&D went out of their way to make sure Stannis had no northern allies in his show plot. No battle of Deepwood Mott to secure alliances with other houses, specifically house Mormont. Wyman Manderly cut out almost entirely, a man who may very well be the real creator of Frey pie! In the released Theon chapter Stannis mentions that all Roose has to do was wait for Stannis to engage his army at Winterfell or for his men to starve and mutiny, which what happens conveniently in the show, literally the exact opposite of Stannis's plan. All of this really happened imo to suck all of the intrigue out of the northern plot and have a ridiculous black vs white, good vs evil showdown between two fan favorites and some of the most formulaic and predictable story telling in the whole series, forgive me if I feel they missed the point of this story. On the topic of Shireen if Stannis himself is to burn Shireen then he must take Winterfell as Selyse, Shireen and Mel are still at the wall and the snows are closing in rapidly. I can't imagine any one taking Shireen to the war camp as it would be a very treacherous journey and to a place with barely any supplies, no Winterfell is a much more likely location as they will have enough provisions to facilitate travel to the wall. One last thing I would like to mention is the show is not afraid to piggyback some one else's arc with a fan favorite character, Barristan Selmy was short changed so they could shoehorn Tyrion into Dany's plot. I think the same thing was done with Jon and Stannis, the books have a much grittier and nuanced battle for the north coming while the show opted for croud pleasing fluff! So fellow Mannis fans fear not for there may be at least one victory and suprise twist for him in Winds! 

^This all this

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Lord Gelgar said:

I just want to remind everyone that just because the show makes a decision, it doesn't mean that the books will happen the same way. It's very telling that D&D went out of their way to make sure Stannis had no northern allies in his show plot. No battle of Deepwood Mott to secure alliances with other houses, specifically house Mormont. Wyman Manderly cut out almost entirely, a man who may very well be the real creator of Frey pie! In the released Theon chapter Stannis mentions that all Roose has to do was wait for Stannis to engage his army at Winterfell or for his men to starve and mutiny, which what happens conveniently in the show, literally the exact opposite of Stannis's plan. All of this really happened imo to suck all of the intrigue out of the northern plot and have a ridiculous black vs white, good vs evil showdown between two fan favorites and some of the most formulaic and predictable story telling in the whole series, forgive me if I feel they missed the point of this story. On the topic of Shireen if Stannis himself is to burn Shireen then he must take Winterfell as Selyse, Shireen and Mel are still at the wall and the snows are closing in rapidly. I can't imagine any one taking Shireen to the war camp as it would be a very treacherous journey and to a place with barely any supplies, no Winterfell is a much more likely location as they will have enough provisions to facilitate travel to the wall. One last thing I would like to mention is the show is not afraid to piggyback some one else's arc with a fan favorite character, Barristan Selmy was short changed so they could shoehorn Tyrion into Dany's plot. I think the same thing was done with Jon and Stannis, the books have a much grittier and nuanced battle for the north coming while the show opted for croud pleasing fluff! So fellow Mannis fans fear not for there may be at least one victory and suprise twist for him in Winds! 

YES! Say it, preach it, believe it!

[Dex drako]

4 hours ago, Lord Gelgar said:

 I think the same thing was done with Jon and Stannis, the books have a much grittier and nuanced battle for the north coming while the show opted for croud pleasing fluff! So fellow Mannis fans fear not for there may be at least one victory and suprise twist for him in Winds! 

I really don't understand this view as the way the story works demands Jon be the one to take winterfell.

jon and dany's stories are paralleled if Dany comes back from the Dothraki sea to win the battle of fire then Jon has come back from the dead to win the batter of ice. it's just how these characters work and it just makes more sense as winterfell is important to Jon character arc and and moves his KITN plot forward.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

2 hours ago, Dex drako said:

I really don't understand this view as the way the story works demands Jon be the one to take winterfell.

jon and dany's stories are paralleled if Dany comes back from the Dothraki sea to win the battle of fire then Jon has come back from the dead to win the batter of ice. it's just how these characters work and it just makes more sense as winterfell is important to Jon character arc and and moves his KITN plot forward.

After GOT many would say "the way the story works demands Robb to siege KL" and looked how that went also no guarantee Dany wins TBOF and the Greyjoys and Selmy save the day

[Duranaparthur]

2 hours ago, Dex drako said:

I really don't understand this view as the way the story works demands Jon be the one to take winterfell.

jon and dany's stories are paralleled if Dany comes back from the Dothraki sea to win the battle of fire then Jon has come back from the dead to win the batter of ice. it's just how these characters work and it just makes more sense as winterfell is important to Jon character arc and and moves his KITN plot forward.

That seems to be where the story is going , but it's entirely possible the show's pathway is founded on abridging the entire story of both Stannis's campaign in the North and the Stark resurgence, abridging it for the twin purposes of saving time and saving money, with a possible side benefit for D&D in trying to give audience members only one male contender to view as the main hero in Jon.

For instance, both Stannis and Roose's exit in the show seem suspiciously ill-formed in the show, both doing little justice to the characters' pre-established wisdom and blatantly focused on making Jon and Ramsay look better in some way. That leads me to think that both men are likely to die in Book!Stannis's Northern Campaign, but only after at least one huge set piece battle with Stannis pulling an Alexander Nevsky and dumping thousands of Freys into frozen water (probably too expensive for the show) and probably at least some attack on Winterfell itself to make Ramsay's assumption of power make more sense. I can still see Rose being stabbed, but it makes more sense in a chaotic melee as Stannis almost breaches the walls, and I can see Shireen's burning, but well away from Stannis and out of his order, while Stannis himself has been foreshadowed to burn to death as well. And only then does Jon show up to rally the remnants of Stannis's host, and maybe have the Battle of the Bastards.