If Lyanna is already married to Robert before HH tourney, will this make difference?

[purple-eyes]

Robert was like 20 something at HH, a perfect age for marriage and also he is already the ruling LP of Stormlands which indeed requires him to have a lady wife as soon as possible. In fact, I am suprised he has not married Lyanna yet. It did not make much sense honestly. the only reason I can think about it is that GRRM did not want to copy Troy so much or he wants to "whitewash" his dreamlover Lyanna. 

So let us imagine Lyanna was already married, she travelled to HH with her husband and brothet. she still played as mystery knight and met her silver prince. 

do you think Rhaegar and Lyanna would still do what they did? crowning, eloping, hiding? 

 

[OuttaOldtown]

Yes, because I believe the reasons were not about a choice or love and more relates to their prophetic destiny..

Hypothetical question for you. Assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna fully believe their child will be some kind of savior whose birth is key to planetary survival, how important is the personal honor of lords & ladies, wedding vows, marriage pacts and even the lives of everyone who died in RR? 

[Nyrhex]

They would, 100%. There is a more than semantic difference in giving the cronw of roses to a man's wife though, so hammertime may be sooner.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Lyanna didn't care about her family and their honor just like Rhaegar didn't care about his family. I don't see why a marriage would have stopped them.

[Lady Lia]

Lyanna was still pretty young at Harrenhal. Robert and Rickard may have agreed the marriage would take place when she came of age.

[purple-eyes]

45 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Yes, because I believe the reasons were not about a choice or love and more relates to their prophetic destiny..

Hypothetical question for you. Assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna fully believe their child will be some kind of savior whose birth is key to planetary survival, how important is the personal honor of lords & ladies, wedding vows, marriage pacts and even the lives of everyone who died in RR? 

if this is the case, then why did rhaegar need to shame his wife and woo Lyanna by giving the roses? did prophecy require this as well? 

and if rhaegar and lyanna were so sure about the prophecy, should not they try to firstly persuade Aerys and Richard that they are not just hooking up, but saving the world? only Lyanna can be brainwashed by Rhaegar? 

it sounds like a very bad excuse: oh sweet babe, you have to sleep with me, i don't do it for my personal fun, this is to save our planet! 

prophecy is just a cover, an excuse. Rhaegar can get his third child with any other woman without issue, but he did with lyanna selfishly and stupidly. 

[purple-eyes]

29 minutes ago, Lady Lia said:

Lyanna was still pretty young at Harrenhal. Robert and Rickard may have agreed the marriage would take place when she came of age.

14 years old. many women in the book married at this age. 

[purple-eyes]

oh, and another question. 

what if lyanna did not exist but her mother Lyarra Stark was alive (rickard only had three sons)?

will rhaegar abduct Lady Stark for a "song" of ice and fire? (who is the only stark woman around as far as we know) 

[OuttaOldtown]

2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

if this is the case, then why did rhaegar need to shame his wife and woo Lyanna by giving the roses? did prophecy require this as well? 

and if rhaegar and lyanna were so sure about the prophecy, should not they try to firstly persuade Aerys and Richard that they are not just hooking up, but saving the world? only Lyanna can be brainwashed by Rhaegar? 

it sounds like a very bad excuse: oh sweet babe, you have to sleep with me, i don't do it for my personal fun, this is to save our planet! 

prophecy is just a cover, an excuse. Rhaegar can get his third child with any other woman without issue, but he did with lyanna selfishly and stupidly. 

Yes, it would've been like skipping part of the song  

If they're right you'll be wrong, and all the things that outrage you about it will be rendered fairly meaningless. Personally I think arranged marriage pacts and vows before the fake seven gods are all a meaningless distraction. Elia Martells tears mean nothing compared to the greater good..

[Jon's Queen Consort]

52 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

will rhaegar abduct Lady Stark for a "song" of ice and fire? (who is the only stark woman around as far as we know) 

Thank you!  

[HoodedCrow]

If Rhaegar and Lyanna do not engage, than Jon will never be born, and the non extant Jon cannot have a Queen consort.

[The Wolves]

46 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

14 years old. many women in the book married at this age. 

Maybe Rickard didn't want to marry Lyanna till she was 16 yrs old. 

If im not mistaken a lot of lords marry their daughters off when they reach 16yrs old. I think its not very common to marry a 14 yr old off. 

[purple-eyes]

54 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Yes, it would've been like skipping part of the song  

If they're right you'll be wrong, and all the things that outrage you about it will be rendered fairly meaningless. Personally I think arranged marriage pacts and vows before the fake seven gods are all a meaningless distraction. Elia Martells tears mean nothing compared to the greater good..

Elia's tears of course mean nothing. In your mind she must be the "another woman" towards rhaegar and lyanna 's shinning true love. it is Elia who Unfairly occupied the position of Rhaegar's wife. She stole lyanna's "husband" from her. And same applies to Robert. An evil fiancée who destroyed lyanna's love life.  

But if you use this logic, rhaegar's children's lives (his infant son's crushed head and toddler daughter's 50 stabs) also mean nothing compared to lyanna and her destined love story, right? Plus lives of rickard and Brandon and thousands of good men. 

Is this rhaegar or some old creepy guy beyond the wall who is willing to sacrifice his sons? 

[Ser Leftwich]

Yes. Changing anything would 'change the story.'

Why ask pointless questions? This is a story. We don't know why anyone (R or L especially) did what they did then, its all pointless speculation.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

21 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Elia's tears of course mean nothing. In your mind she must be the "another woman" towards rhaegar and lyanna 's shinning true love. it is Elia who Unfairly occupied the position of Rhaegar's wife. She stole lyanna's "husband" from her. And same applies to Robert. An evil fiancée who destroyed lyanna's love life.  

But if you use this logic, rhaegar's children's lives (his infant son's crushed head and toddler daughter's 50 stabs) also mean nothing compared to lyanna and her destined love story, right? Plus lives of rickard and Brandon and thousands of good men. 

Is this rhaegar or some old creepy guy beyond the wall who is willing to sacrifice his sons? 

You are right. Elia was an arranged marriage so she didn't matter. After all she couldn't had another baby so what is the reason for her to be marry with Rhaegar and keep him from his true love? True love in Westeros, but it works only for Lyanna and Rhaegar, was the reason for what ever they did because "that is love and this is how it works". I have seen people who want to be treated as serious people while their whole explanation for Rhaegar's actions was "but love makes someone to do stupid things." 

[OuttaOldtown]

45 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Elia's tears of course mean nothing. In your mind she must be the "another woman" towards rhaegar and lyanna 's shinning true love. it is Elia who Unfairly occupied the position of Rhaegar's wife. She stole lyanna's "husband" from her. And same applies to Robert. An evil fiancée who destroyed lyanna's love life.  

But if you use this logic, rhaegar's children's lives (his infant son's crushed head and toddler daughter's 50 stabs) also mean nothing compared to lyanna and her destined love story, right? Plus lives of rickard and Brandon and thousands of good men. 

Is this rhaegar or some old creepy guy beyond the wall who is willing to sacrifice his sons? 

Forget love, I'm talking about the survival of humanity. All I see are signs of a higher purpose, it's not about attraction, lust or any that stuff. Yes, all their lives are worth sacrificing if Jon's existence is crucial, I say that with 100% conviction. The day I reread AGoT and suddenly get a sense Ned thinks poorly of Rhaegar I'll consider your viewpoint. I disagree with everyone who thinks it's all about love and desire, why not the 'girl with the laughing purple eyes'? Or the beautiful lioness who desired him? Why a girl "who was by all reports a wild boyish young thing with none of Princess Elia's delicate beauty'? I'm not gonna be blinded by 21st century morality when I read fiction & pretend a literary genius is a soap opera writer..

[Little Scribe of Naath]

To answer the OP, they would have, for sure.

41 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Forget love, I'm talking about the survival of humanity. All I see are signs of a higher purpose, it's not about attraction, lust or any that stuff. Yes, all their lives are worth sacrificing if Jon's existence is crucial, I say that with 100% conviction. The day I reread AGoT and suddenly get a sense Ned thinks poorly of Rhaegar I'll consider your viewpoint. I disagree with everyone who thinks it's all about love and desire, why not the 'girl with the laughing purple eyes'? Or the beautiful lioness who desired him? Why a girl "who was by all reports a wild boyish young thing with none of Princess Elia's delicate beauty'? I'm not gonna be blinded by 21st century morality when I read fiction & pretend a literary genius is a soap opera writer..

And what about the twice mistaken impression of Rhaegar in thinking first he, then his son Aegon was the PtwP and would save the world?

Or that Aegon and Rhaenys were the three heads?

Rhaegar was not some God, for f--k's sake. He had no right - absolutely none - to throw away thousands of people's lives over a prophecy which he had already interpreted wrongly.  His arrogance in believing only he or his descendants could save the world is astounding.

Look at Melisandre. If she ends up burning Shireen at the stake tomorrow for "saving" Westeros due to her "prophecies" (which she also wrongly interprets half the time), is it justified?

Did Rhaegar bother sending reinforcements to the Wall? Did he go and visit the Night's Watch to see how the state of affairs there was? If he was so concerned about saving the world, you might think he would have done that.

Jon may very well end up saving the world. But that credit is purely to him and the people who have influenced him in his life, like Ned, Benjen, the Starks and their values, Jeor Mormont, Qhorin Halfhand, Sam etc.

It is another classic case of a prophecy inadvertently coming true (a la Cersei and Maggy the Frog.)

And Elia Martell matters, absolutely matters. 

[the trees have eyes]

Eh, probably not.  Rhaegar seems to have consdiered Lyanna fair game and that the fall-out from the elopement would be far from ideal but managable all the same.  The idea that Brandon would ride to KL and call for him "to come out and die!" probably didn't cross his mind, nor that Aerys would murder Brandon and Rickard and order Robert and Ned to be murdered as well.

If Lyanna and Robert had already been married it looks far harder for him to think that making a move on Lyanna would be viable.  Not to mention that the polygamous marriage would not be an option for him with Lyanna already married unless he called for the High Septpon to dissolve that marriage (which looks even less likely) or somehow decided that Lyanna could enter into a polygamous marriage as well as him (even less likely again).

Ultimately I suppose it depends no how much you're into the magic of Jon Snow and the union of the ice and fire bloodlines.  If it had to be a Stark then Rhaegar was merely biding his time waiting for an opportunity to pounce and I don't think that comes out of the text.  If he merely thought there must be a third as the dragon meeded three heads and Elia could not bear another child then all he needed was a suitable consort.  There is no reason it has to be Lyanna and this is all part of the tragedy that it was and the assumption that he cared for her and came to admire her at HH (discovering her to be the KotLT etc) is much more likely.  Ned also thinks too highly of him (as do others) for him to be a prophecy-based nut who coldly planned to use Lyanna as nothing more than a broodmare.  If she was married though, she would not have been running around wild at HH (presumably) duelling knights in the lists and I don't think they would have developed the relationship that they did.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

14 years old. many women in the book married at this age. 

It was also in the middle of at least a 2 year winter, if not more. They were prolly waiting until after the winter broke permanently.

[purple-eyes]

2 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Forget love, I'm talking about the survival of humanity. All I see are signs of a higher purpose, it's not about attraction, lust or any that stuff. Yes, all their lives are worth sacrificing if Jon's existence is crucial, I say that with 100% conviction. The day I reread AGoT and suddenly get a sense Ned thinks poorly of Rhaegar I'll consider your viewpoint. I disagree with everyone who thinks it's all about love and desire, why not the 'girl with the laughing purple eyes'? Or the beautiful lioness who desired him? Why a girl "who was by all reports a wild boyish young thing with none of Princess Elia's delicate beauty'? I'm not gonna be blinded by 21st century morality when I read fiction & pretend a literary genius is a soap opera writer..

calm down. nobody denied that Jon Snow likely will save the world. the point is that, is this the only stategy to bring this savior to the world? exactly with so much bloodshed? 

obviously if rhaegar is more sane and more diplomatic, things would not end up so bad. i am not trying to ask him to foresee everuthing, but what he did is the possibly worst way. 

how about coming back to KL earlier? himself was not pregnant. how about sending a message to Stark? how about sending his wife and children secretly to dragonstone or somewhere else before Trident? how about giving one KG to them so that they can die less horribly? how about holding his personal desire for a while and deposing his mad daddy before running away? did not he try to do that since long time ago? how about sending Elia and children to Dorne when he went to look for lyanna? 

he did nothing.

all he did was to take lyanna and disappear for one year in the middle of nowhere. then did nothing to protect his fragile family.