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17 hours ago, Nictarion said:

How can you hate Bran? :o

I can understand finding him boring, or being indifferent towards him, but hate?

I can't really understand how people can read thousands of pages about these main characters and still feel antipathy towards any / some / most of them despite the author intending us to sympathise with them.

But, yeah, people use hate to mean something very different to what it actually describes: morelike they feel  indifference or boredom or irritation in most cases.

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4 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I can't really understand how people can read thousands of pages about these main characters and still feel antipathy towards any / some / most of them despite the author intending us to sympathise with them.

But, yeah, people use hate to mean something very different to what it actually describes: morelike they feel  indifference or boredom or irritation in most cases.

Bran wargs Hodor.  He uses Hodor to follow Meera around the cave.  That is somewhat creepy. I don't like Bran.

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17 hours ago, Nictarion said:

How can you hate Bran? :o

I can understand finding him boring, or being indifferent towards him, but hate?

Personally I only find him boring, but I can see it.  Continually skinchanging Hodor for fun is one of the most evil acts in the novels yet; I'm actually surprised how many people don't seem to care.  

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9 hours ago, Sybil Vane said:

Bran wargs Hodor.  He uses Hodor to follow Meera around the cave.  That is somewhat creepy. I don't like Bran.

It is quite clearly wrong but perhaps understandable how an eight year-old boy paralysed and effectively helpless might take advanage of a means to regain some independence without really understanding the gravity of his actions or the impact on Hodor.  It's also understandable how he might want to watch a girl he idolizes, children being known to sneak around and peak at things they know they aren't supposed to. An adult's perspective is very different from an eight year old's after all and, this being Bran's secret, he is badly lacking the adult guidance and discipline he needs here.

9 hours ago, The Wull said:

Personally I only find him boring, but I can see it.  Continually skinchanging Hodor for fun is one of the most evil acts in the novels yet; I'm actually surprised how many people don't seem to care.  

I can't speak for any people who don't care if he wargs Hodor.  I know I care and and hope that he either comes to realise he is wrong and must stop or is given a stern talking to by either Meera or Jojen and realises that he must act within boundaries.  I also find it surprising how many people offer an adult's opinion and such harsh condemnation when assessing the actions of such a young child.  You can call his actions among the most evil in the books if you really feel the need to (Gregor? Ramsey? Vargo Hoat? The masters of Slaver's Bay?) but he seems to me to be a decent kid who is far too young to understand the impacts of his actions without some guidance and, yes, some rebuke.

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16 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

It is quite clearly wrong but perhaps understandable how an eight year-old boy paralysed and effectively helpless might take advanage of a means to regain some independence without really understanding the gravity of his actions or the impact on Hodor.  It's also understandable how he might want to watch a girl he idolizes, children being known to sneak around and peak at things they know they aren't supposed to. An adult's perspective is very different from an eight year old's after all and, this being Bran's secret, he is badly lacking the adult guidance and discipline he needs here.

I can't speak for any people who don't care if he wargs Hodor.  I know I care and and hope that he either comes to realise he is wrong and must stop or is given a stern talking to by either Meera or Jojen and realises that he must act within boundaries.  I also find it surprising how many people offer an adult's opinion and such harsh condemnation when assessing the actions of such a young child.  You can call his actions among the most evil in the books if you really feel the need to (Gregor? Ramsey? Vargo Hoat? The masters of Slaver's Bay?) but he seems to me to be a decent kid who is far too young to understand the impacts of his actions without some guidance and, yes, some rebuke.

I don't think we can use the age excuse in his case, given how George has generally written children to act like adults in tiny bodies - Arya, Dany, Jon, Robb, and Bran to name a few.   Bran knows he's wrong, notes how Hodor wimpers and hides in a corner of his mind like a beaten dog, and conceals his skinchanging from his friends.  Opinions may vary on how evil people consider this, that's your right.  I happen to think that repeated violation of another's free will is right near the top of the list.

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14 hours ago, The Wull said:

I don't think we can use the age excuse in his case, given how George has generally written children to act like adults in tiny bodies - Arya, Dany, Jon, Robb, and Bran to name a few.   Bran knows he's wrong, notes how Hodor wimpers and hides in a corner of his mind like a beaten dog, and conceals his skinchanging from his friends.  Opinions may vary on how evil people consider this, that's your right.  I happen to think that repeated violation of another's free will is right near the top of the list.

Of course we can.  There is a reason criminal law does not treat children as adults and its to do with the mental capacity of the developing child. He is eight years old and has been without parental guidance for a good year if not more.  GRRM writes the children as older than their ages that's true but if you judge Bran as an adult rather than an 8 year old intellectually, psychologically and emotionally we will have to agree to disagree.  It is also worth pointing out that Bran genuinely cares about Hodor - Hodor was one of the people along with Old Nan he sent a dish to at the harvest feast for "no reason other than he loved them" - and that he does not intend or wish for any harm to Hodor. only to regain some freedom of movement given his uesless legs.  Yes he knows it's wrong and that he shouldn't do it but this is why, like most children stepping beyond the bounds of what is acceptable, he needs an adult to rein him in.  Not an adult to judge him guilty of a capital crime and burn him as a witch as you seem to be on board with.

And if you consider Bran's actions on a par with Ramsey or Gregor then I have to admit I'm left speechless.

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With regards to GRRM's character ages, I think they are low but not tooo low - probably around 3-4 years off what their actual mental age might be.

Jon/Dany seem around the young adult stage to me (20/21) while Sansa seems mid-teens (16/17). Arya and Bran are clearly written to be young, probably on the cusp of teenage (Arya - 14, Bran maybe 12). I don't think Sansa, Arya and Bran are meant to be treated as adults - their young ages are a big reason why some questionable mentors have taken them under their wing, and are trying to brainwash them when they have nowhere else to go, IMO.

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