Heresy 190

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On 8/8/2016 at 3:50 PM, Tucu said:

A couple of quotes that hint that the 3EC and the tree are different entities. But it might just be a hint at the duality of BR existence.

"And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name."

"On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords."

The last paragraph there shows that the tree and the weirwood are in unison. The crow appears from the weirwood itself. Not as an outside source. The trees and the birds belong together. 

Looking forward to a thread concerning the corvids. 

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I won't say that,i think it what people expect it because they put the characters into a mold of either good or bad.I won't classify the "Others" as evil because i believe there is more to them that white shadows in the woods.Nor do i believe their motives are entirely good or bad.Just as i don't believe the Red Priests or Dany and her Dragons are on the side of right or wrong.There are reasons why these things are going down this way and a lot of it is because of consequences,an unreasonable view of character self importance and what they think they have to do.It is what makes this damn thing so exciting.

Fundamentally this is what Heresy is all about. 

From the very beginning the underlying argument has been that this isn't going to be settled in a big battle on the Trident in which the Targaryens [including the one presently known as Jon Snow] and their dragons are going to save the day.

The "opposing" POVs are already in place and they are ambiguous ones. Is Danaerys the Dragonlord the saviour of Westeros, or is she Shiva the Destroyer; is she herself the Stallion?

Similarly and as we see the Others from Bran's POV, not as a leader but a witness [as so many of GRRM's POVs are] they are emerging as far more complex than Old Nan's stories suggest. That doesn't make them any less of a threat in the long run, but we are beginning to see them properly.

[Tucu]

7 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

The last paragraph there shows that the tree and the weirwood are in unison. The crow appears from the weirwood itself. Not as an outside source. The trees and the birds belong together. 

Looking forward to a thread concerning the corvids. 

The paragraph can also be read as the crow interrupting and overwhelming the call from the tree.

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The paragraph can also be read as the crow interrupting and overwhelming the call from the tree.

I'd say that its ambiguous as everything else that GRRM writes. The two, as Flagons argues, are clearly connected, yet they are not necessarily speaking with the same voice.

[Tucu]

45 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'd say that its ambiguous as everything else that GRRM writes. The two, as Flagons argues, are clearly connected, yet they are not necessarily speaking with the same voice.

I agree that it is ambiguous. GRRM might be just hinting at BR duality (and senility) or at a second entity contacting Bran.

[Black Crow]

Its possible, but whatever way we look at it I really don't see Bloodraven being behind everything and skin-changing everything in sight. He has had his day and the story has moved on.

[wolfmaid7]

20 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Fundamentally this is what Heresy is all about. 

From the very beginning the underlying argument has been that this isn't going to be settled in a big battle on the Trident in which the Targaryens [including the one presently known as Jon Snow] and their dragons are going to save the day.

The "opposing" POVs are already in place and they are ambiguous ones. Is Danaerys the Dragonlord the saviour of Westeros, or is she Shiva the Destroyer; is she herself the Stallion?

Similarly and as we see the Others from Bran's POV, not as a leader but a witness [as so many of GRRM's POVs are] they are emerging as far more complex than Old Nan's stories suggest. That doesn't make them any less of a threat in the long run, but we are beginning to see them properly.

Sorry for the typos lol i was literally typing by television light.But i totally agree with you;while there will be battles maybe even grand ones that would probably only serve to increase the body count.Greater things are beneath and within the 'human' heart and it is there the true battle will be won.

On 8/11/2016 at 8:15 PM, aDanceWithFlagons said:

The last paragraph there shows that the tree and the weirwood are in unison. The crow appears from the weirwood itself. Not as an outside source. The trees and the birds belong together. 

Looking forward to a thread concerning the corvids. 

 

18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd say that its ambiguous as everything else that GRRM writes. The two, as Flagons argues, are clearly connected, yet they are not necessarily speaking with the same voice.

Nahhh i have to disagree with BC and Flagons on this one.I don't think there's any ambiguity on this one.That whole scene is set up in such a way to look like the crow was trying to interupt the communication between Bran and the weirwood.The fact that the crow flew from the weirwood's branches indicates that it was "hidden" among it.

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

That whole scene is set up in such a way to look like the crow was trying to interupt the communication between Bran and the weirwood.

Hah!  I like this idea of an interpretation or comunications problem. 

Corn, corn, corn.... Jon Snow corn, king.... Hodor, hodor, hodor.

How do the CotF learn the common tongue?  They go out into the world according to Leaf.  is it coincidence that Bran is suddenly transported into Hodor's body during the fight with the wights at the Greenseers cave; when Leaf shows up with fire?  Even with Bran's full set of faculties; Hodor can only say Hodor.   That's not the case when Varamyr takes someone else's body from them.   You might say the difference is that Hodor's mind has been damaged and yet he seems to comprehend well enough and has a full range of emotion.  Did a previous rider leave behind the inability to communicate in the common tongue?  So far, Leaf is the only CotF that we know who can communicate in the common tongue.  I'm not sure what going out into the world means.

Hodor is afraid of the wights but not the CotF.  He's afraid of the crypts when Ned's ghost appears to Bran and Rickon but not before or after.  He's not any more or less afraid of Coldhands than the rest of them.  Was it really Ned's ghost that appeared in their dream or something else.  Something that Bran, Summer and Hodor can sense within Shaggy Dog.  Something hateful, something that would have killed Bran given a chance. It almost feels like Bran and Rickon were lured to the crypts with the dream.  Something that Summer expels.

And something that still remains a part of Hodor also fears.

[Black Crow]

 

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

So far, Leaf is the only CotF that we know who can communicate in the common tongue.  I'm not sure what going out into the world means.

I'd assume she means going out into the world of men. Otherwise I think its all in the head and that Bran the builder didn't learn how to twist his tongue and tonsils to make and understand noises like stones and water and leaves, but rather to communicate with his mind as the crows do and perhaps through the crows. Leaf latterly may have learned how to speak the human tongue by getting inside people's heads to understand what that sound and every other sound actually meant.

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

 

I'd assume she means going out into the world of men. Otherwise I think its all in the head and that Bran the builder didn't learn how to twist his tongue and tonsils to make and understand noises like stones and water and leaves, but rather to communicate with his mind as the crows do and perhaps through the crows. Leaf latterly may have learned how to speak the human tongue by getting inside people's heads to understand what that sound and every other sound actually meant.

Seems to me that Coldhands communicates mind to mind since his mouth is covered and he doesn't appear to be breathing.  Why does Leaf ask Bran what he saw in his first weirwood expedition. Or is she speaking mind to mind as well.  Who can tell in the dark.

[wolfmaid7]

19 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hah!  I like this idea of an interpretation or comunications problem. 

Corn, corn, corn.... Jon Snow corn, king.... Hodor, hodor, hodor.

How do the CotF learn the common tongue?  They go out into the world according to Leaf.  is it coincidence that Bran is suddenly transported into Hodor's body during the fight with the wights at the Greenseers cave; when Leaf shows up with fire?  Even with Bran's full set of faculties; Hodor can only say Hodor.   That's not the case when Varamyr takes someone else's body from them.   You might say the difference is that Hodor's mind has been damaged and yet he seems to comprehend well enough and has a full range of emotion.  Did a previous rider leave behind the inability to communicate in the common tongue?  So far, Leaf is the only CotF that we know who can communicate in the common tongue.  I'm not sure what going out into the world means.

Hodor is afraid of the wights but not the CotF.  He's afraid of the crypts when Ned's ghost appears to Bran and Rickon but not before or after.  He's not any more or less afraid of Coldhands than the rest of them.  Was it really Ned's ghost that appeared in their dream or something else.  Something that Bran, Summer and Hodor can sense within Shaggy Dog.  Something hateful, something that would have killed Bran given a chance. It almost feels like Bran and Rickon were lured to the crypts with the dream.  Something that Summer expels.

And something that still remains a part of Hodor also fears.

Yep,that's what i believe is going on.The crow was trying to stop the communication between Bran and the weirwood.Who when someone is talking screams over it and worse flies in your face and pecks it while your trying to recieve a message.I brougt up before my suspecions about Bran (while he could sit that throne) never being the one who is suppose to and the BR collective snagged him because he was what "they" were wanted.

As to how Leaf came to know the common tongue,she said she learnt it for Bran's sake.But truth be told she could have learnt that without leaving the cave.BR is speaking the common tongue so he could have taught Leaf.Going out into the world and walking it was brobablly recon or something.

There's a couple of funny things happening or not happening when it should be and again i think there's a ot of things going on for show.In that i thing certain individuals want characters to assume something that might be incorrect.They basically pulling the wool over their eyes.

Him being afraid weary of CHs comes about because he's a dead thing,but it didn't stop him or Sam from acceptig CH's help.Everything says they should be afraid,but despite CHs lack of a pulse there is the illusion of humanity,intelligence that clouds that.What Bran should have been asking is what's BR relationship with this thing that smells like the wights but :

"The Shrouded Lord has ruled these mists since Garins day, said Yandry. Some say that he himself is Garin, risen from his watery grave. The dead do not rise, insisted Haldon Halfmaester, and no man lives a thousand years. Yes, there is a Shrouded Lord. There have been a score of them. When one dies another takes his place.Aye, Ive heard that too, said Duck, but theres another tale I like better. The one that says hes not like t'other stone men wights, that he started out as a statue till a grey woman came out of the fog and kissed him with lips as cold as ice......."

Then we have Ghost's reaction the Skirling pass when Bran made contact with Ghost and Ghost smelled death and reacted negatively.Eventhough it was Bran,even though bran was happy to see him..Ghost sensed something wrong there.

The COTF and BR collective mean no threat to Bran's person .He's a replacement and they intend on using him but he needs to be alive.

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

I'd assume she means going out into the world of men. Otherwise I think its all in the head and that Bran the builder didn't learn how to twist his tongue and tonsils to make and understand noises like stones and water and leaves, but rather to communicate with his mind as the crows do and perhaps through the crows. Leaf latterly may have learned how to speak the human tongue by getting inside people's heads to understand what that sound and every other sound actually meant.

Totally forgot to answer this.Per my previous post,Leaf didn't have to leave the cave to learn the common tongue.BR could have thought her.

[Mother of Dragons]

Hey BC totally OT, but don't get mad, ok? Going to Italy in 10 days for 3 months, just wondering if any Italian heretics or RLJ-ers lived over there & wanted to meet up. I'll start in Rome, may spend my first 2 weeks in Prague, then Amalfi Coast and Greece if i can make it thru November. Or I'll just stay there if Trump gets elected, lol!

 

Anyway, thought it would be fun to meet other fans on my trip if they are out there.

 

-Mojito of Dragons

[Black Crow]

I believe that there are one or two Italians around. Why not get your avatar printed on to a button to avoid carnations and the other traditional marks of an assignation 

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Leaf did not say she went out into the world to learn the common tongue, she says she speaks the tongue for Bran.

 

Quote

Meera said, “You speak the Common Tongue now.”

“For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home."

Leaf had a goal in mind, but when she didn't find what she was looking for she  headed home. That's the way I take her sentiment. 

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On 8/12/2016 at 5:27 AM, Tucu said:

The paragraph can also be read as the crow interrupting and overwhelming the call from the tree.

 

On 8/12/2016 at 5:31 AM, Black Crow said:

I'd say that its ambiguous as everything else that GRRM writes. The two, as Flagons argues, are clearly connected, yet they are not necessarily speaking with the same voice.

It could be read that way. I agree with the ambiguity of Martin. Still have to point out that the crow and the weirwood are using the same path to Bran. We see examples of the birds and trees together; the Citadel, Raventree Hall, and the cave of the Singers. They belong together - the weirwood is the focal point of power. What exactly the ravens and the trees do for each other is still up in the air, but there is some connection there. The 'immortal' trees and the birds who feast on the dead. The afterlife guides?

Rambling on, Coldhands is a good puzzle piece to tie things together. He speaks the common tongue, what appears to be the old tongue, and understands the ravens. He never speaks the ravens' language, but he comprehends. And he acts as a guide too. And a messenger. 

[Lord Wraith]

22 minutes ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

Leaf did not say she went out into the world to learn the common tongue, she says she speaks the tongue for Bran.

 

Leaf had a goal in mind, but when she didn't find what she was looking for she  headed home. That's the way I take her sentiment. 

Makes you wonder if this is something specific to Leaf or something that all COTF do? The COTF have supposedly disappeared for hundreds or thousands of years. Yet she travels the world and manages the hide from the world as she travels.

What is she watching for and what is she trying to learn? What are the Children doing?

 

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Makes you wonder if this is something specific to Leaf or something that all COTF do? The COTF have supposedly disappeared for hundreds or thousands of years. Yet she travels the world and manages the hide from the world as she travels.

What is she watching for and what is she trying to learn? What are the Children doing?

 

Presumably she needed to learn about the realms of men, but then the tree-huggers got Bloodraven and now Bran to provide that window.

The real question, as you say, is whether this intelligence gathering is defensive, passive or aggressive.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

Rambling on, Coldhands is a good puzzle piece to tie things together. He speaks the common tongue, what appears to be the old tongue, and understands the ravens. He never speaks the ravens' language, but he comprehends. And he acts as a guide too. And a messenger. 

That's another good reason for thinking that the crows and ravens can communicate in the mind. I was going to kick off the bicentennial essays with a piece on Winterfell but given the current level of interest I'm now thinking of starting it off with the Crows.

[LynnS]

11 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

Leaf had a goal in mind, but when she didn't find what she was looking for she  headed home. That's the way I take her sentiment

Curiously, Tyrion recalls hearing of a dwarf who served with the Silent Sisters.

[Black Crow]

They seek her here, they seek her there...