Heresy 190

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm thinking of Dany in the House of Undying when she encounters the splendor of wizards.  She's offered the food of forever and secret knowledge.  She burns the place down instead.

That's an interesting twist since the Garden of Eden's promise of everlasting life is contingent upon not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

[LynnS]

On 2016-08-28 at 2:12 AM, Black Crow said:

Yuup, that's the one. Read it, enjoy it and see how much it meshes with ASoIF in every way

I'm not finished reading but I'm getting some sense of where you are heading if we are talking about white shadows and shadowbinding.  That would seem to point to the CotF and the WW including the wights.  

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm not finished reading but I'm getting some sense of where you are heading if we are talking about white shadows and shadowbinding.  That would seem to point to the CotF and the WW including the wights.  

And don't forget the pilgrims...

[LynnS]

Just some random thoughts about the CotF going back to some old heresy discussion about creating weapons that get away from the maker's control.  It occurs to me that the CotF may have lost control of their own weapon, the WW in the sense that Moqorro explains the outcome of fire mages trying to match the power of the Smoking Sea.  The resulting wrath of the gods and catastrophe.  Also Melisandre's close call with spontaneous combustion.

The CotF may have lost a large part of their population due to their own actions in creating an army of WW; resulting in a pact with men and the consignment of weapons.  I'm not sure that the WW are actually under their control at this point.  Coldhands is certainly concerned about them; when he tells Bran they can't light a fire without attracting foes that leave no tracks in the snow.

[Black Crow]

40 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Just some random thoughts about the CotF going back to some old heresy discussion about creating weapons that get away from the maker's control.  It occurs to me that the CotF may have lost control of their own weapon, the WW in the sense that Moqorro explains the outcome of fire mages trying to match the power of the Smoking Sea.  The resulting wrath of the gods and catastrophe.  Also Melisandre's close call with spontaneous combustion.

The CotF may have lost a large part of their population due to their own actions in creating an army of WW; resulting in a pact with men and the consignment of weapons.  I'm not sure that the WW are actually under their control at this point.  Coldhands is certainly concerned about them; when he tells Bran they can't light a fire without attracting foes that leave no tracks in the snow.

Broadly I'd agree. According to the World Book they sacrificed thousands of their own in order to bring down the Hammer of the Waters - and that sacrifice is all the greater due to their low birth rate. I'd be more inclined to see it as their being crippled by that effort and finding it unavailing turning instead to creating their winter soldiers.

Where I think the twist comes in is that the white walkers were abandoned by the Children once the Pact was agreed and that's why they have turned against their creators.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Just some random thoughts about the CotF going back to some old heresy discussion about creating weapons that get away from the maker's control.  It occurs to me that the CotF may have lost control of their own weapon, the WW in the sense that Moqorro explains the outcome of fire mages trying to match the power of the Smoking Sea.  The resulting wrath of the gods and catastrophe.  Also Melisandre's close call with spontaneous combustion.

The CotF may have lost a large part of their population due to their own actions in creating an army of WW; resulting in a pact with men and the consignment of weapons.  I'm not sure that the WW are actually under their control at this point.  Coldhands is certainly concerned about them; when he tells Bran they can't light a fire without attracting foes that leave no tracks in the snow.

I miss the "like" button on Westeros!  You make very good points that the wights and white walkers are no longer their soldiers. If they ever were, they've lost control as your supporting text points out. But I wonder if Euron does have control over them now? Euron is able to control the wind, or at least he was credited with providing good winds for Victarion's invasion of the Shield Islands. If he can manipulate the wind, whose to say that he isn't adding to the winds that are compounding the blizzard at Winterfell at the end of Dance? He says he's the first storm and the last, so I am wondering if the god of the sea and goddess of the wind aren't part of the Drowned God?

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I miss the "like" button on Westeros!  You make very good points that the wights and white walkers are no longer their soldiers. If they ever were, they've lost control as your supporting text points out. But I wonder if Euron does have control over them now? Euron is able to control the wind, or at least he was credited with providing good winds for Victarion's invasion of the Shield Islands. If he can manipulate the wind, whose to say that he isn't adding to the winds that are compounding the blizzard at Winterfell at the end of Dance? He says he's the first storm and the last, so I am wondering if the god of the sea and goddess of the wind aren't part of the Drowned God?

If they are no longer true to the three-fingered tree-huggers I'd be very surprised to find them under anybody's control, let alone Euron.

[Melifeather]

On 8/29/2016 at 4:05 PM, Black Crow said:

If they are no longer true to the three-fingered tree-huggers I'd be very surprised to find them under anybody's control, let alone Euron.

IMO Euron is Bloodraven's inversion and will be Bran's primary enemy. 

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I miss the "like" button on Westeros!  You make very good points that the wights and white walkers are no longer their soldiers. If they ever were, they've lost control as your supporting text points out. But I wonder if Euron does have control over them now? Euron is able to control the wind, or at least he was credited with providing good winds for Victarion's invasion of the Shield Islands. If he can manipulate the wind, whose to say that he isn't adding to the winds that are compounding the blizzard at Winterfell at the end of Dance? He says he's the first storm and the last, so I am wondering if the god of the sea and goddess of the wind aren't part of the Drowned God?

I don't know what drives the WW.  Hatred of of all living things? I think they are a force apart from whatever Euron is doing.  Euron intends to make himself into Azor Ahai using sorcery on his little ship of horrors. I'm reminded of this legend of AA killing the demon from the Jade Compendium:

The pages told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.  - westeros wiki

Sounds similar to Sam's WW; but they don't burst into flame when dispatched. They steam and melt and then burst into mist and ice crystals.

At best Euron is a false AA and a true monster.

 

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't know what drives the WW.  Hatred of of all living things? I think they are a force apart from whatever Euron is doing.  Euron intends to make himself into Azor Ahai using sorcery on his little ship of horrors. I'm reminded of this legend of AA killing the demon from the Jade Compendium:

The pages told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.  - westeros wiki

Sounds similar to Sam's WW; but they don't burst into flame when dispatched. They steam and melt and then burst into mist and ice crystals.

At best Euron is a false AA and a true monster.

 

A monster bursting into flames is much more in the nature of a dragon, especially when the written legend comes from out east exactly at the time when the Targaryens and their dragons were destroying the old Ghiscari empire.

[Black Crow]

As to the white walkers, I still hold that Old Nan's description of the Others being cold dead things hating all life is a confusion of white walkers and of wights. GRRM has flatly stated that the former are not dead; the latter on the other hand are dead and I suggest that they do hate the living precisely because they themselves are dead. 

The walkers were compared by GRRM in that same email to the Sidhe made of ice, and whilst that was a physical descriptor addressed to an artist, that artist needed to capture their character and we do indeed see them paralleling the Sidhe in their Wild Hunt form: which is important because while the two are often confused the Wild Hunt were not themselves Faerie born and bred, but men; changelings and above all the damned. 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

A monster bursting into flames is much more in the nature of a dragon, especially when the written legend comes from out east exactly at the time when the Targaryens and their dragons were destroying the old Ghiscari empire.

Actually, that makes a lot more sense.

[Melifeather]

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

The pages told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.  - westeros wiki

The story of Azor Ahai is not about an actual person. It's the story of the three "swords" the Children forged in order to defeat humans. The third sword is what broke the moon. If Planetos is actually a moon itself, then the Children believe they "broke" it. The natural order of things is unbalanced. When the third sword was "thrust" it caused volcanic eruptions, and that is the monster in the tale, the boiling blood of lava, and the smoke and steam of a powerful eruption. The lava melting and dribbling down, bursting anything in it's path into flame.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The story of Azor Ahai is not about an actual person. It's the story of the three "swords" the Children forged in order to defeat humans. The third sword is what broke the moon. If Planetos is actually a moon itself, then the Children believe they "broke" it. The natural order of things is unbalanced. When the third sword was "thrust" it caused volcanic eruptions, and that is the monster in the tale, the boiling blood of lava, and the smoke and steam of a powerful eruption. The lava melting and dribbling down, bursting anything in it's path into flame.

It's one layer of the story.  But there are people who think they are AA and weapons that can boil blood and melt eyes.

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's one layer of the story.  But there are people who think they are AA and weapons that can boil blood and melt eyes.

Indeed, and given that there are so many layers of meaning in GRRM's writing I'd be reluctant to seek one true answer. As we've discussed before it's not just a question of what happened but of what people think happended - and conduct themselves accordingly

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Indeed, and given that there are so many layers of meaning in GRRM's writing I'd be reluctant to seek one true answer. As we've discussed before it's not just a question of what happened but of what people think happended - and conduct themselves accordingly

I agree.  Lightbringer could just as easily refer to the crone carrying a lantern as much as it could to a weapon or the person wielding the weapon.  Forging lightbringer could refer as much to the forging of a soul or the heart, as it could to an actual weapon.

I'll have to get back to the Heart of Darkness today.  They have arrived at the inner station.  

[Black Crow]

Good-oh and there the parallels become very clear

[Melifeather]

IMO Lightbringer is the comet.

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO Lightbringer is the comet.

Feather! How's the knee?  Yes, it's the comet; but not only the comet.

 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Good-oh and there the parallels become very clear

Wow.  I'll say.  I started to note the obvious parallels but there is so much of it; it was getting in way of just reading.  The harlequin Russian with his strange glamor a parallel to Leaf.    Please explain the 'pilgrims' to me.