Heresy 190

[Black Crow]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

We could say that obsidian is frozen fire or fire made into stone. When Sam kills the White Walker with his obsidian blade; it can't be touched afterwards because it has absorbed the cold or perhaps the ice magic binding together the WW.

Is Mel's ruby really a ruby? She's more than familiar with the uses of dragonglass; saying that there is plenty of it at Dragonstone.  She uses a ruby to glamor Mance.  He says he can feel the heat of it on his wrist.  Yet when she breaks the glamor the stone turns dark.  Does the ruby at her throat draw the fire from her heart and glow red in the same manner that Sam's blade drew the cold from the WW?   Is it her ruby and burnt offerings that allow her to see visions in the flame.  

I suspect Mel's ruby to be obsidian and Stannis' sword Lightbringer that Sam describes to Aemon, burning without heat, giving off pretty colors to be a glass candle.

 

This could explain a lot if we see the glass candle not as a radio valve in itself but as a looking glass to see what is in the fire.

I particularly like the idea of it being "neutral" but capable of drawing out magic, whether of Ice or of Fire. We've seen it work on Ser Puddles when it "broke the spell holding him together" by drawing the magic into itself, then presumably that same dragonglass might have the same effect on a dragon by breaking the spell and drawing out the magic which holds fire together as flesh.

[wolfmaid7]

22 hours ago, Tucu said:

I prefer to keep the option of the identity of 3EC open, after all GRRM keeps telling us that ravens are not crows.

"The crow is the raven's poor cousin"

"When the ravens came the crows would scatter"

"The maester's ravens were paying court to some of the corpses, while the crows from the broken tower attended others"

"Listen to the crow call the raven black"

 

True,true.

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

I was actually referring to the first attempt during his coma dream when the library is burned down and Cat stops the assassin with the blade.  The blade that Baelish then claims as his own and lost to Tyrion in a bet.  An outright lie.  In the dream sequence; Bran is able to listen in on conversation that is not meant to be overhead. Information that is dangerous for him to know. He is breaking into a conversation in the same way that Bran and BR break into Mel's fire visions and she sees their faces.

I wouldn't categorize watching the watchers as a form of omnipresence.  I think the conversation he overhead; the whisperings, were a matter of sorcery using glass candles.  We know  from Marwyn that glass candles give you the ability to speak to another.  The dream image of climbing a windowless black tower fits the description in some ways to the House of Black and White.  Marwyn is closeted alone with Pate the Faceless Man when Sam arrives.  Sam smells something burnt in the brazier.  Marwyn says that all sorcery is rooted in blood and fire.  So is this a necessary part of using a glass candle.  The candle amplifies what the sorcerer sees in the flames.  Does this account for Bran seeing eyes like coals in a brazier.    The candles giving off light without burning doesn't seem to be enough to give Sam any visions.  We know Quaithe comes to Dany using a glass candle; but we don't know how a candle is used.  She was previously touched on her wrist leaving a tingling sensation.

We could say that obsidian is frozen fire or fire made into stone. When Sam kills the White Walker with his obsidian blade; it can't be touched afterwards because it has absorbed the cold or perhaps the ice magic binding together the WW.

Is Mel's ruby really a ruby? She's more than familiar with the uses of dragonglass; saying that there is plenty of it at Dragonstone.  She uses a ruby to glamor Mance.  He says he can feel the heat of it on his wrist.  Yet when she breaks the glamor the stone turns dark.  Does the ruby at her throat draw the fire from her heart and glow red in the same manner that Sam's blade drew the cold from the WW?   Is it her ruby and burnt offerings that allow her to see visions in the flame.  

I suspect Mel's ruby to be obsidian and Stannis' sword Lightbringer that Sam describes to Aemon, burning without heat, giving off pretty colors to be a glass candle.

That could lead to some speculation about the pale stone sword as ice made into stone.  Working in the opposite way and drawing fire magic to itself if you stab a fire demon in the heart. 

 

. 

 

I'm still a bit confused.I know he heard Jamie and Cersie's conversation before Jamie dispatched him through the window.But during the dream sequence itself he didn't hear anything.Also, nice to see you picked up BR with Bran hacking Mel's fire.I brought up that before in the Jon as AA thread one of those things that again makes me think of other portals by which one can divine and i believe to the right person the Wall is one of them courtesy maybe the Black gate.

To go off that I think the glass candles are divining or scrying tools same go for the weirwoods they help with that other sight.Westrosi versions of scrying mirrors.Interesting thing Obsidian was one of the oldest material used to make a scrying mirror.It was suppose to rpresent water at a fixed point and all scrying mirrors are and should be "black"

That being said,Mel's ruby may not be a ruby.I work with crystals myself for ceremonial magic and in the path its used as a tool to heighten energies and already existing abilities,build courage and it is an aphrodisiac.It one of the gems that deal with circulation,blood,lifeforce that kind of thing.

Black obsidian is the most prized of the shades of obsidian we call it in the circle " the stone of truth" it is the stone of prophesy,healing( suppose to heal poison especially from snakes i've never tested that theory so i can't say,but i've heard from my Shamanic friends that it does),the traveler and its used for repelling negativity and banishing spells.This is what i think has gone on with Ser Puddles.GRRM did tell us that the dagger Sam used broke the "spell" holding them together.So we are dealing with an invocation that is a clue that something els created them.

One reason why i think GRRM's use of no gods appearing in the series need to be looked at in a broader context. Yeah we won't see Rhollor,or the Great Other in this series,but i believe we will be seeing extraordinary individuals with certan powers mascarading as them in order to fool the gullible and the people who think they are wise.

Once you have people being able to see through natural conduits we have omnipresence,you have the capability to manipulate nature,jump into anything that moves and manipulate them you are omnipotent,people kneeling down praying to you we have reverence.Ergo you have gods.

All this is another reason why i think BR isn't the 3ec Bran's "one day" seeing beyond the trees has already come and gone.

I just had a thought and @LynnS you and @Feather Crystal may find this interesting.Euron we know is kind of paralleling BR right.He's pretty much copying him.The Kraken tentacles as weirwood roots reach out ya da yada.

We are guessing Euron is a failed pupil of the 3ec who in search knew he could fly but wok and didn't went to the edge of the world and is probably going to frack things up something fierce.Bran same thing got up from his dream disapointed because the 3ec told him he could fly and didn't actually "fly" when he woke up.But we can't deny he found someway to fly courtesy BR who i'm still asserting isn't the 3ec,Bran think he is because he thought we was going to meet him and he actyaly did fly in real through skinchanging the birds.

What if,BR is also a failed student and he and the little treehuggers stole Bran from the 3ec that's why BR and the trees can't see the crow when they enter Bran's dream.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I know he heard Jamie and Cersie's conversation before Jamie dispatched him through the window.But during the dream sequence itself he didn't hear anything.

Yes, my first thought also; that he was dreaming about Jamie and Cersei.  There is a minor difference in the detail.  The tower Bran climbs in his dream doesn't have any windows.  I'm surmising that glass candles are used in conjunction with fire and blood offerings to do all the things that Marwyn says they you can do with them.  Communicating with another and that Mel's ruby is in reality obsidian drawing on her inner fire or even other way around.  Therefore it glows red and is mistaken for a ruby.  She is searching in the flames for R'Hllor's instruments; when Bran and BR break into her fire vision; she in turn sees them.  This is what I think occurs in Bran's dream when he overhears whispering and then the gargoyle/lions see him.  He's desperately afraid, pleading he didn't hear anything until Hodor wakes him.  This is why Bran is such a danger to the powers or agencies playing the game of thrones and of ice and fire.  This is why someone attempted to kill him while in coma.  This is why he has to get beyond the Wall to safety.  Because he has this ability to tune in to these plots.

I also think the memory of Jaime pushing him out the window has been blocked by the 3EC. Jaime doesn't appear to him as a twisted gargoyle but the golden face and golden hand.  

Bran's coma dream; first flying lesson:

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones.  Had he always been so thin?  He tried to remember.  A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden.  "The things I do for love," it said.

Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing.  Not that, it shrieked at him.  Forget that, you do not need it now, put is aside, put it away.  It landed on Bran's shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

So Jaime can't be the gargoyle/lion from his later dreams.  They must be someone else. While Bran is falling he can see the entire realm and everyone in it for a brief moment when he forgot to be afraid.  He sees the Winterfell godswood tree:

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind.  When it felt Bran watching, it lifted it's eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

That's a strange thing. Who is Bran watching?  Bloodraven? Who is giving Bran his lesson? Or is this Bran looking at himself in the pool; wondering why he was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. If he always looked that way. 

ETA:

Also curiously, Marwyn doesn't say that the glass candles will let you see past and future and Quaithe's riddles so far have been about the present.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool.  "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire.  The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles.  They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles.  Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

Visions of what? The kind of visions that Cersei receives in her dreams? Terrors and nightmares?  Why does Marwyn search out so many lost books if he could just use the candles and find out for himself.  I don't think they can.  That might be the advantage that Bran has over them.  Can false visions be sent to someone like Melisandre?

 

   

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I just had a thought and @LynnS you and @Feather Crystal may find this interesting.Euron we know is kind of paralleling BR right.He's pretty much copying him.The Kraken tentacles as weirwood roots reach out ya da yada.

We are guessing Euron is a failed pupil of the 3ec who in search knew he could fly but wok and didn't went to the edge of the world and is probably going to frack things up something fierce.Bran same thing got up from his dream disapointed because the 3ec told him he could fly and didn't actually "fly" when he woke up.But we can't deny he found someway to fly courtesy BR who i'm still asserting isn't the 3ec,Bran think he is because he thought we was going to meet him and he actyaly did fly in real through skinchanging the birds

You know, I only have some loose ideas about Euron.  Did he fail the flying test?  He still thinks is possible to fly if you jump off some tall cliff. Was he shown the heart of darkness or has he become the heart of darkness? Maybe he was meant to die from the fall; but survived to become what he is now.   He is perhaps like BR in the sense that he is dabbling in sorcery; and he might be a sorcerer's apprentice of a sort.  I do believe he's been to Asshai and the Smoking Sea.  All he needs is a guide; someone who can espy the land and a passage across the Sunset Sea using a glass candle, doesn't seem so farfetched.   Marwyn on a mapping expedition,  for example.  He seems a willing instructor for unsavory types like Qyburn.

ETA: Answered my own question; BR disappeared 252.

[Black Crow]

I'm reminded by Ravenous on another thread that since I originally wrote that essay linking Bran's journey to Conrad's Heart of Darkness, the literary parallel was all but confirmed in a passage in the World Book speaking of Asshai and the journey made by pilgrims up the river into the Heart of Darkness. Ravenous' point was that Mel had been to Asshai  and this, he suggests, points to darkness being the foundation for everything, including worship of the Red God. Indeed Mel herself speaks of the darkest shadows being cast by the brightest light. However this might be interpreted it is once again pointing to darkness being necessary to open the third eye.

Whether or not Mel sees [sorry] things in these terms, it does suggest that her third eye was opened during this ordeal and that her "ruby" acts as a glass candle in allowing her third eye to see through the flames. The downside is that the same glass candle, being constantly "switched on" may be feeding unwanted images into her dreams.

[Yes I know Stannis is also allowed to see the fight on the Fist through the flames, but he's standing next to the glass candle at the time with herself showing the way.]

[LynnS]

I agree that darkness is needed to open the 3rd eye.  I think it was an interview or panel with GRRM and Stephen King where he made the comment that all sorts of things can happen in the darkness; hallucinations, etc.  IIRC  It would make sense to me that Mel has that capability.  She does recognize Orel in his eagle; something that skinchangers seem to be able to do.  Then she extends her mind to his and burns him.  I'm just not sure if that's an amplification of the ruby. As for Stannis being able to see visions in the fire; I'm conscious of Mel's abilities with the power of suggestion.  Staring into a flame could be have an hypnotic effects.  This is probably one of her tools for convincing Stannis that he is Azor Ahai and otherwise bringing him under her control.  That and whatever smoky drugs she uses in her brazier.

I'm not opposed to the idea that the land north of the wall or Asshai represent the heart of darkness; that the land is permeated with the darkness like a poison. But I am conscious of Jojen poking Bran in the forehead and telling him that he would never open the 3rd eye using his finger.  He specifically tells him that he has to search with his heart.  I think it is the quality of heart or soul to which Jojen is referring.  Bran doesn't just espy the land in his coma dream; he sees something specific; something that terrifies him.  I think when he looks into the heart of darkness itself; he sees the locus or focal point; that he is seeing into someone else's heart and mind.  That would be something monstrous, insane and evil.  He sees the face of the enemy that Mel tries so hard to find but fails.  And that evil has also seen him.  Whether Bran is seeing him through another mirror at the top of the world, like the Smoking Sea or the God's Eye is the question in my mind.

I'll go a little crackpot here and say that what Bran sees is a stationary cyclonic storm with an eye at it's center.  I imagine something akin to Jupiter's great red spot.  Jupiter/Thor/The Storm God; it's veil or cloud wall lit with purple and blue lightening like the bar sinister that chases Tyrion across the sea; smashing to Stinky Steward to bits.  That's the tinfoil I'm wearing these days.  

 

 

 

 

   

[Black Crow]

Its possible, but I've always tended to believe that this thing which so terrifies Bran when he looks into the Heart of Winter Darkness, is the future - and the truth.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its possible, but I've always tended to believe that this thing which so terrifies Bran when he looks into the Heart of Winter Darkness, is the future - and the truth.

I can't disagree with that idea. There's nothing to say that he not only espy's the land but also has a set of visions.  There is an interesting interview with GRRM with Marvel where he mentions two movies:  The Mist and the Descent.  Neither of which I've seen; but of course I looked at the movie previews on youtube.  There is a line in the Mist that it is a door to another dimension and it's not one way.  And we have all these mysterious gate and portals in-story; the least of which is the Black Gate.  Pyat Pree tells Dany the way out is the way in and Tyrion experiences the mysterious time loop when he passes beneath the Bridge of Dreams on the Sorrows.  The mist they encounter is "not normal" and frightening.  Perhaps the aptly named Bridge of Dreams is another kind of portal or gateway.  Why everyone with greyscale is dumped at that location is a good question.  Tyrion thinks he shouldn't breath the mist.  Let's suppose there is another gateway or portal at the top of the world that's an exit point for whatever poison permeates the land of always winter.  My tinfoil is getting heavier by the minute.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Whether or not Mel sees [sorry] things in these terms, it does suggest that her third eye was opened during this ordeal and that her "ruby" acts as a glass candle in allowing her third eye to see through the flames. The downside is that the same glass candle, being constantly "switched on" may be feeding unwanted images into her dreams.

I do like this explanation for Mel's ruby that you and LynnS have detailed. It's like Mel is carrying a portable glass candle.

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'll go a little crackpot here and say that what Bran sees is a stationary cyclonic storm with an eye at it's center.  I imagine something akin to Jupiter's great red spot.  Jupiter/Thor/The Storm God; it's veil or cloud wall lit with purple and blue lightening like the bar sinister that chases Tyrion across the sea; smashing to Stinky Steward to bits.  That's the tinfoil I'm wearing these days.

This is interesting, and even though you've mentioned this before elsewhere, I didn't catch the connection to the Storm God which I believe plays a big part, because after all it was the wrath of the gods of sea and wind, after their daughter Elenei was taken and took mortal form, that they grew angry and tore apart Durran's castle over and over until Bran the Builder helped him build Storm's End...effectively putting an end to storm damage. The Storm God could be joining forces with the magic being released from the expellation of the Wall. But I don't think the Storm gods are aligned with Euron. Doesn't Victarion curse the storm?

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I do like this explanation for Mel's ruby that you and LynnS have detailed. It's like Mel is carrying a portable glass candle.

This is interesting, and even though you've mentioned this before elsewhere, I didn't catch the connection to the Storm God which I believe plays a big part, because after all it was the wrath of the gods of sea and wind, after their daughter Elenei was taken and took mortal form, that they grew angry and tore apart Durran's castle over and over until Bran the Builder helped him build Storm's End...effectively putting an end to storm damage. The Storm God could be joining forces with the magic being released from the expellation of the Wall. But I don't think the Storm gods are aligned with Euron. Doesn't Victarion curse the storm?

I don't think the Storm God is a god perse; but a manifestation of natural magic or something can be used with sorcery.  Calving off smaller storms, calling up the winds to put some speed in your sails.  Something Euron claims to be able to do. And the mysterious statement from Marwyn when he left the Citadel to board ship; that he would need to get to her fast.  Combined with Moqorro's and Benerro's knowledge of the bar sinister in advance and they were in a race and Tyrion's comment that some big bastard was creeping up on them;  well you can speculate who that might be.  

Whatever magic is spilling out of the Storm's eye; could be likened to the Smoking Sea and Moqorro's description of the Doom:  

No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship who’s captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking sea. “So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we’re seeing, reflected on the clouds?”

“Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is no wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god’s own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men.

“Some smaller than others.” Valyria. It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes too hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turn to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted.

When Moqorro says that no human flame can match them;  I think he saying that using that magic can get away from anyone who tries to match it and the god's wrath was the result.

There is a hint of that when Melisandre's burn Rattleshirt glamored as Mance.  She is relieved that Jon put an arrow in his heart because she herself was reaching the limits and thought she was about to perish having extended glamors to Rattleshirt; Stannis' sword and I suspect the Horn of Joramun.  I don't think that was the real horn but switched with one of the great horns on top of the wall.    

[Tucu]

It is amazing how the R'hllor religion has twisted Melissandre's view of magic. She trained with Shadowbinders and went into the heart of darkness, but where others see power, knowledge and wisdom, she just sees darkness, cold and death.

[Black Crow]

13 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It is amazing how the R'hllor religion has twisted Melissandre's view of magic. She trained with Shadowbinders and went into the heart of darkness, but where others see power, knowledge and wisdom, she just sees darkness, cold and death.

Clearly she was terrified by what she found there.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

There is a line in the Mist that it is a door to another dimension and it's not one way.  And we have all these mysterious gate and portals in-story; the least of which is the Black Gate.  

There's also [significantly I think] that business which Catelyn recalls of the Crone with her lantern opening the door into death and letting the first crow fly into the world - but we'll leave that one for another day.

[Tyryan Lannister]

31 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

There's also [significantly I think] that business which Catelyn recalls of the Crone with her lantern opening the door into death and letting the first crow fly into the world - but we'll leave that one for another day.

It's interesting that it's the Crone, the personification of knowledge and wisdom, that lets the first crow, the harbinger of death (or doom), into the world.

A bit of hidden knowledge from the old Andals about delving to deeply into the mysteries of the world?

[Melifeather]

Sounds like the House of Black and White to me. All men must die.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

It's interesting that it's the Crone, the personification of knowledge and wisdom, that lets the first crow, the harbinger of death (or doom), into the world.

A bit of hidden knowledge from the old Andals about delving to deeply into the mysteries of the world?

Could be, it's certainly a bit Pandora's box-like but very interesting that it's a crow she lets in.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Sounds like the House of Black and White to me. All men must die.

I'm not sure; going through that door comes to us all in the end. As I've just said to Tyryan the crow comes the other way, but we'll leave that for the bicentennial discussion.

[Black Crow]

Found it. 

Its the first Catelyn chapter in Storm of Swords, where she's gone into a sept to pray for her father:

"...and lit a candle to the Father Above for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death, and a third to the Mother..."

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Found it. 

Its the first Catelyn chapter in Storm of Swords, where she's gone into a sept to pray for her father:

"...and lit a candle to the Father Above for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death, and a third to the Mother..."

The Crone represents wisdom, so it's implied that it was wise to let the raven into the world. The association of death and wisdom caused me to make the connection to the House of Black and White and the Faceless men's view that death is a gift...a necessary gift and part of the cycle of life. Ravens are carion birds that feed upon the carcasses of the dead, but its a messenger too keeping and communicating knowledge.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Found it. 

Its the first Catelyn chapter in Storm of Swords, where she's gone into a sept to pray for her father:

"...and lit a candle to the Father Above for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death, and a third to the Mother..."

It's interesting how some these old tales are being tied to different characters.

Dany with the crones and the 'light':

...mother of dragons, daughter of death

...mother of dragons, bride of fire

...mother of dragons, slayer of lies

'Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.'

Quaithe to Dany: ... to touch the light, you must pass beneath the shadow... to find the truth.

I'm getting the Morrigan vibe here.  A crone with a lantern to light the way? Someone who brings the light? Does the three mounts she must ride include a wolf?  I'm liking my odds here. 

http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/godsandgoddesses/p/Morrighan.htm