Westeros Experts League 2016

[Bronn Stone]

That would be a felony.  I think I'd rather just pick Brady in a daily league.  Finger of Death Stone they call me.

 

[Prince of the North]

Please leave Brady alone (for this week, at least)!  I need him to do well

[Lord Lyman]

Just leave Brady alone period. He needs a 5th Super Bowl ring for his thumb.

[Prince of the North]

Hey, I'd have no problem with that either! 

[Jaime L]

Sorry for the lack of weighing in. Was on vacation the last couple of weeks. I'll look into the posts talking about how we choose who makes Experts in the next few days and we'll figure out a plan. 

But first, congrats to Groz on winning the league. Despite being very strong all year, he rode a 4 game losing streak into the playoffs but found a way to pull out 3 tight wins. Helluva season. 

[Mya Stone]

Goddammit, had I left Coleman in I would have won! 

 

Congrats groz! Well deserved! 

[Week]

Congrats Groz! 

 

Grozing, in honor of groz, the Tantivy put up 193 points after a few weeks in hibernation. Good timing folks!

Cherry on top grozing: It would have been over 200 with some common sense changes - Julio in for Britt and Crowell in for the execrable Kenneth Farrow.  

[Bronn Stone]

You're welcome, Groz.

[Jaime L]

This is the worst thing that ever happened to Groz. He has absolutely nothing to groz about. 

1 hour ago, Week said:

Congrats Groz! 

 

Grozing, in honor of groz, the Tantivy put up 193 points after a few weeks in hibernation. Good timing folks!

Cherry on top grozing: It would have been over 200 with some common sense changes - Julio in for Britt and Crowell in for the execrable Kenneth Farrow.  

But fortunately the rest of us can fill the vacuum. Same, man! My team was scorching hot for 7 of the final 8 weeks of the seasons but laid an egg against Groz. FFL is brutal, yo. 

[Jaime L]

On 12/11/2016 at 11:02 AM, Bronn Stone said:

My proposal for a point system involved very small point amounts for second and third,  such that they only became tie-breakers.  (ie finishing second in every single league was worth less than finishing first in all but the most oddball of leagues (100, 10, 2 for example)

But the underlying suggestion that the leagues with little turnover should be somehow downgraded for that reason is inherently silly.  Those leagues are what they are because of the RELIABILITY and ongoing competitive play by the people in them. 

The winner of Westeros A will have won a competitive league with ten good players who stuck with their teams all year long.  Said player will have stuck with it in good years and bad and demonstrated year after year that he/she has not just stumbled into a good autodraft once but every year puts a good effort out there.  Another term for that is an EXPERT.

I agree with the points Bronn is making here. I'm with the notion of instituting a point system to help distinguish between league winners. Furthermore I think all potential H2H feeders should be weighted equal. I think it's just about impossible to distinguish the feat of winning T-Dome vs. W-D vs. Dynasty - each requires its own application of skill (and luck). And it simplifies scoring so that everyone in week 16 can immediately do the math on their chances. 

This means the 8 main leagues: W-A, W-B, W-C, W-D, Open, Outlaw, T-Dome and Dynasty are all worth the same (100 points for winning, 10 for 2nd place, 2 for 3rd). You want a better chance to make Experts - be more active and join more leagues. If more leagues are created next year, we can add them to the list as they come up but feel like any league that has at least 10 teams and some variant of classic FFL rules should be considered. 

(Note: I didn't include Survivor or Defense above because they're like different games. But no doubt they each require their own skill so I'd be fine considering them as well if people want to.)

There's 3 openings this year so the top 3 in points get the first invites. However like JJ said, they have to agree to be to active to get the spot. And invitations can be revoked if it appears someone will not be. Really want to make sure anyone who joins has both earned it and really wants to be in this league. 

Thoughts? Agree/Disagree? 

 

[JJ Lannister]

Are there 3 open spots or only 2? If Bronn won Dynasty he should automatically get his spot back correct? 

[Dunknegg]

I'll provide my perspective in hopes it will further discussion to perfect (or at least) improve the methodology for inclusion into Experts league.

I've been playing FF for 20+ years now, however, I only discovered there was a group of players on this forum about four years ago...that happens when you are more focused on other forums in this site.  Anyway, I experienced extreme difficulty joining any leagues due primarily to the same 15-20 people playing in the available leagues.  WJ was kind enough to invite me into W-B that first year and I was fortunate enough to win it that year and again this year.  When someone dropped out of Thunderdome, I took over that team because (a) an active owner was needed and (b) it was obvious one must need to be in multiple leagues to stand a chance for Experts.  I joined a few other leagues, but didn't  feel right about preventing other people not in a league from joining for lack of availability so I relinquished those spots this year.

If the ultimate goal is to create competition and have fun, it doesn't seem like we are promoting either if the same core of players are monopolizing opportunity and in essence discouraging competition.

I do not know the solution and may appear to be in direct opposition of Jaimie's stance, but would like to see some type of limitation on the number of feeder leagues a participant can play in to allow a more fair opportunity to anyone wanting to compete on a level playing field. There are, and can be additional leagues that are just for fun if one simply has too much free time on their hands. I've considered adding a league next year for that very reason.

I know that does not solve the issue this year, but it seems like this is a debate we have every year. 

If a limitation of # of feeder leagues that can be played in is too difficult, perhaps some kind of rotation of which leagues will serve as feeders could be implemented.

Just an observation in regards to JJ's comment regarding Dynasty. While I think it is definitely an achievement to be respected to win that league and I have absolutely no qualms with Bronn either personally or ability-wise, what you suggest is in direct contrast to your own point system you created just last year(page 19 on this thread).  I'm not anti-Bronn at all. I just wanted to point out how this "appears".

[Jaime L]

11 hours ago, JJ Lannister said:

Are there 3 open spots or only 2? If Bronn won Dynasty he should automatically get his spot back correct? 

Good point, yes, only two spots. 

10 hours ago, Dunknegg said:

I'll provide my perspective in hopes it will further discussion to perfect (or at least) improve the methodology for inclusion into Experts league.

I've been playing FF for 20+ years now, however, I only discovered there was a group of players on this forum about four years ago...that happens when you are more focused on other forums in this site.  Anyway, I experienced extreme difficulty joining any leagues due primarily to the same 15-20 people playing in the available leagues.  WJ was kind enough to invite me into W-B that first year and I was fortunate enough to win it that year and again this year.  When someone dropped out of Thunderdome, I took over that team because (a) an active owner was needed and (b) it was obvious one must need to be in multiple leagues to stand a chance for Experts.  I joined a few other leagues, but didn't  feel right about preventing other people not in a league from joining for lack of availability so I relinquished those spots this year.

If the ultimate goal is to create competition and have fun, it doesn't seem like we are promoting either if the same core of players are monopolizing opportunity and in essence discouraging competition.

I do not know the solution and may appear to be in direct opposition of Jaimie's stance, but would like to see some type of limitation on the number of feeder leagues a participant can play in to allow a more fair opportunity to anyone wanting to compete on a level playing field. There are, and can be additional leagues that are just for fun if one simply has too much free time on their hands. I've considered adding a league next year for that very reason.

I know that does not solve the issue this year, but it seems like this is a yearly debate we have every year. 

If a limitation of # of feeder leagues that can be played in is too difficult, perhaps some kind of rotation of which leagues will serve as feeders could be implemented.

 

Appreciate your perspective, man. What I would say is you should never feel guilty filling a spot in a league. If demand exceeds supply, more leagues can be created. I think your instinct to create a new league next year is the right one. To solve the issue of people being crowded out of FFL leagues on this board, we shouldn't be looking to limit the number of feeder leagues, we should be looking to expand them if the demand is there, IMO.

You seem like a dedicated FFL player that is looking to play in multiple leagues and that's fantastic. I hope there's more like you out there in the woodwork but I'm not convinced. WJ is probably the best to comment as he runs the most leagues on the board and has for years, but I get the sense it's tough to fill up these leagues without having at least 5-6 of the slots taken by the same, dedicated, repeat players. There just hasn't been the kind of posting activity in the FFL threads at any point in the season to indicate this groundswell out there. 

[Week]

For a points system, maybe 50 for league champion, 25 for regular season champion, and 25 for most points. A bit more complicated but it means you can be rewarded for a solid season without actually winning.

Personally, I'd use W-A/B/C/D and Open as feeders for promotion (Unjaxoming via points system) and a win in any board league (including TDome or Dynasty) can block Jaxoming. Broadening the 'blocking' is a bit biased towards long-time players, but - frankly - that's ok because the Experts' league is based on a dedicated, competitive group.

We may want to consider limiting 3 teams per individual in the feeder leagues - just to keep things as fair as possible. Consider that WJ runs 4 of those leagues, I'd just cut his point total by 50% and call it a day.

[Bronn Stone]

Just win, baby.  That's what makes the playoffs and the H-T-H so exciting.

HYPOCRITE ALERT

Honestly, I don't think my return should be "automatic".  I do think some tie-breaker consideration should be given to "already in Experts", but not such that it is automatic.  I don't want to see someone who won three leagues being aced out down the road because all three losers in Experts eked out one win apiece.

In my mind, for this year, the first candidate for Experts this time SHOULD be JJ - winning two leagues.  Second, maybe me since I have a win and the tie-breaker of being a return candidate and that the third slot should go via tie-breaker to Pyro if he's the only remaining winner with a second place finish.

 

The downside of treating all leagues equally is the fear of league spamming - putting together four or five squanky leagues that don't really involve the core players of this site in hopes of winning one.  I definitely think that first-year leagues should count less than established ones.

I also totally concur on Survivor and Defense counting less.  Those are larks.  But I do hope to bring back Survivor next year.

For those not familiar, our Survivor league isn't like the standard ones where you pick a team each week.  It is normal fantasy football, roto style, sixteen teams, where the low scorer every week is eliminated from the league entirely.  No head-to-head.  Just don't finish 16th in weeks 1/2 (which are combined).  Or 15th in week 3, or 14th in week 4.  It is a lively format.  But

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 Noob to Westeros FF, so take this with a grain of salt. It seems to me you have way more Feeder Leagues than you have spots in Experts to fill. Maybe consider opening up another premium league? I suppose that makes it less of a gem, but it seems to make sense given the amount of feeders. Either that or consider making the feeders tiered. Like you'd have 3 at the top tier feeding experts, and 3 at the bottom feeding that tier?

 Also it seems to me to be a bit unfair to have someone who got Jaxxomed get their spot back right away, unless there aren't enough qualified (or interested) winners coming out of the feeders. The last bit I would add is considering chopping all 4 spots that fail to make the playoffs. Makes it a bit more cutthroat, but it seems fair to me. Making the playoffs should mean something.  

[Week]

Fair points, I'll say that these leagues are much more fun with active and competitive members and there simply aren't that many over the last several years. In a perfect world, I'd like for someone from W-B to join because that league/thread was the most active discussion of any league other than Experts.

[Bronn Stone]

If we want to discuss adding a fourth Jaxoming, this might be the year for it, since it is moot (Mudguard won Westeros B).  I like the Power Ranking system because it is one check against really bad luck H-T-H.

The "automatic" getting back of a spot DOES rely on winning a league.  I am not of the opinion that the value of a win should be downgraded because the winner was previously in Experts.

My initial advocacy of the point system was its scalability.

Also, I was in four feeder leagues this year.  The reason I was able to join four feeder leagues was pretty simple - while I was not on the boards much during the summer, come the first winds of autumn, I checked almost every day in order to be there when the leagues were announced.  These things don't happen by accident.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

^^^^^

Yeah, I don't mean to single you out, it just seems more fair that other winners of Feeder leagues should be given preference over someone who was bumped out.

 I like the point system idea, but the amount of leagues you play in certainly weights that towards someone who's playing multiple leagues. I get your point that you were diligent about signing up for those leagues, but it still kind of skews any attempt made at a point system.

[Week]

Just to point out, fairness is a matter of perspective. The process ought to be 'fair', however I would prefer a little less fairness and avoid what happened this year where a team was 0-13 and abandoned. That was not fair to people in the league* nor was it fair to other active players that weren't added to Experts. Ultimately, the decision is up to Jaime as the commish.

*Grozing - 4 teams got an extra win by virtue of two matchups.