Unreliable History

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

I have never trusted the histories of Westeros, especially the earlier tales which were all written down hundreds maybe thousands of years after the fact, and had been told countless times between the events themselves and the transcribing into "Andlish"

Dawn Age 12,000 -10,000 yrs Before Aegons Conquest-  Arrival of First men, beginning of conflict with CotF, lasts for centuries.

Heroes age 10,000 BC CotF nearly wiped out, flood the neck, First men/Cotf sign a pact.

Long Night 8,000 BC Men and Cotf join forces to beat back WW.

Heroes age ends 6,000 bc when the andals arrive.

I have always had a problem with this account, starting with the fact that Dawn should come after Night, not before.

Men are not likely to have made peace with their enemy on the verge of extinction, Men would only be willing to make peace if they were truly threatened. 

I believe the old stories about the Others are actually referring to the CotF. CotF are the actual Others.  

In AGoT Old Nan is interrupted when she's about to talk more in depth about the Others, who hate iron (cotf- no metal), fire (an intruder in BR cave)  , and the touch of the sun ( we see Leaf outside the cave only after night has fallen).  Later, Maester Luwin is interrupted when he's about to talk about the Cotf. 

 I believe Men crossed the Arm of Dorne during an Ice age around 8,000 yrs BC, serious conflict with CotF didn't start until hundreds of years later as more men kept encroaching. During this time the Ice age ended, flooding the Neck and sinking the Arm of Dorne. Men being bigger, stronger, and better armed were eventually going to drive the CotF to extinction.

6,500-5,500 BC Long Night, the CotF create the WW to combat Men, Men start losing the War and become willing to make Peace. The Pact is signed, ending the Long Night, the Wall is built, NW formed. Dawn of Heroes lasts till 2,500-1,500 bc, then the andals come to Westeros, write everything down.

 

 

[Lord Vance II]

18 minutes ago, Stark Jon Targaryen said:

 I believe Men crossed the Arm of Dorne during an Ice age around 8,000 yrs BC, serious conflict with CotF didn't start until hundreds of years later as more men kept encroaching.

That's a stated fact: the CotF thought they could coexist at first. Not the Ice Age part though.

22 minutes ago, Stark Jon Targaryen said:

In AGoT Old Nan is interrupted when she's about to talk more in depth about the Others, who hate iron (cotf- no metal), fire (an intruder in BR cave)  , and the touch of the sun ( we see Leaf outside the cave only after night has fallen).  Later, Maester Luwin is interrupted when he's about to talk about the Cotf. 

I mean, I can see how you could get that...but no. Old Nan knows the difference and wouldn't arbitrarily switch the names of the two main antagonists of her stories. 

26 minutes ago, Stark Jon Targaryen said:

Men are not likely to have made peace with their enemy on the verge of extinction, Men would only be willing to make peace if they were truly threatened. 

By that logic, why would the Others/CotF make peace with Man if they had us on the ropes?

24 minutes ago, Stark Jon Targaryen said:

Men are not likely to have made peace with their enemy on the verge of extinction, Men would only be willing to make peace if they were truly threatened. 

Only in the show. I'd put money on the Others not having that origin in the books. 

The years not making sense is just because so much was lost between the events happening and them being written down. 

[Macgregor of the North]

While i do not share your view, and do not believe the Others were created by the CoTf in the books, i never have and wont unless i read it on page, i do agree the timelines are seriously funked up.

Sam touches on it that it is all questioned, when things happened etc.

Its entirely possible things like the Andal invasion and the Age of Valyria is actually closer to the Long night than everyone is led to believe which could go a long way to explaining the connection between this mysterious weapon called DragonSTEEL and the Others/long night.

On the Others, its probably more likely they just a unique mysterious race who saw their chance to migrate south after whatever messed up the seasons meant longer winters, long enough for them to move south and take over the land.

 

 

 

[khal drogon]

Never took Westerosi history at face value. If you have read TWOIAF and read about Robert Baratheon alone you would know how wrong Westerosi history is.

[Raisin' Bran]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

While i do not share your view, and do not believe the Others were created by the CoTf in the books, i never have and wont unless i read it on page, i do agree the timelines are seriously funked up.

Sam touches on it that it is all questioned, when things happened etc.

Its entirely possible things like the Andal invasion and the Age of Valyria is actually closer to the Long night than everyone is led to believe which could go a long way to explaining the connection between this mysterious weapon called DragonSTEEL and the Others/long night.

On the Others, its probably more likely they just a unique mysterious race who saw their chance to migrate south after whatever messed up the seasons meant longer winters, long enough for them to move south and take over the land.

I think that what Sam found is a huge clue against taking the long history at face value. That doesn't mean that what he found in the vaults under Castle Black to be accurate. To me it just means that the record keeping is suspect at best and the chronology and history is significantly shorter than we had been led to believe (perhaps by as many as a few thousand years).

[Grey Firewyrm]

Earth history as told by the oldest surviving records (mostly religious) have clearly got many facts either wrong, misunderstood or misinterpreted. That is something that just gets reflected in the books.

[Macgregor of the North]

22 minutes ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

I think that what Sam found is a huge clue against taking the long history at face value. That doesn't mean that what he found in the vaults under Castle Black to be accurate. To me it just means that the record keeping is suspect at best and the chronology and history is significantly shorter than we had been led to believe (perhaps by as many as a few thousand years).

Which is exactly what I mean since we are on the topic of the years and timeline etc. as I go on to explain after the part you bolded.

[scotcat]

23 minutes ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

I think that what Sam found is a huge clue against taking the long history at face value. That doesn't mean that what he found in the vaults under Castle Black to be accurate. To me it just means that the record keeping is suspect at best and the chronology and history is significantly shorter than we had been led to believe (perhaps by as many as a few thousand years).

This is very often the case with history (whether we're talking about real world history or the history of a fictional world), particularly the further back you go.

Facts are noted down wrong, translations of texts can be inaccurate.  Also, history tends to be written by the victors, so it is naturally skewed towards their viewpoint.

[Prince of the North]

2 minutes ago, scotcat said:

This is very often the case with history (whether we're talking about real world history or the history of a fictional world), particularly the further back you go.

Facts are noted down wrong, translations of texts can be inaccurate.  Also, history tends to be written by the victors, so it is naturally skewed towards their viewpoint.

Exactly!  And even those doing the so-called translations/histories will naturally have their own biases/influences/agendas that will effect what they write, etc.  I love how this was even incorporated into TWoIaF because it was written by the seemingly pro-Lannister Maester Yandel (although it was probably more that Yandel's source on the reign of Aerys II, Pycelle, was actually the Lannister-biased one and not Yandel himself).

[scotcat]

5 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Exactly!  And even those doing the so-called translations/histories will naturally have their own biases/influences/agendas that will effect what they write, etc.  I love how this was even incorporated into TWoIaF because it was written by the seemingly pro-Lannister Maester Yandel (although it was probably more that Yandel's source on the reign of Aerys II, Pycelle, was actually the Lannister-biased one and not Yandel himself).

That was my thinking.  It's great that GRRM incorporated this into his books - it invites questions, discussions & debates.

[Prince of the North]

3 minutes ago, scotcat said:

That was my thinking.  It's great that GRRM incorporated this into his books - it invites questions, discussions & debates.

It's one of the more refreshing things about ASoIaF - the fact that Martin actually acknowledges and incorporates the concept of the "unreliable narrator".  And that concept goes hand-in-hand with the concept of, as the thread title says, "unreliable history"

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

2 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

That's a stated fact: the CotF thought they could coexist at first. Not the Ice Age part though.

Its said the Cotf used magic to break the arm of Dorne to stem the migration of men, then years later used the same magic to flood the neck. I'm saying that the arm and the neck were affected by rising sea levels, natural events, and the cotf took credit for it.

I mean, I can see how you could get that...but no. Old Nan knows the difference and wouldn't arbitrarily switch the names of the two main antagonists of her stories. 

I'm saying that the tales about the Others were always about the cotf, men forgot, but bits of truth linger in the tales, like the aversion to iron, fire, and sun. It's too much coincidence that this tale about the Others describes things we know the cotf avoid. 

By that logic, why would the Others/CotF make peace with Man if they had us on the ropes?

i believe it was a necessity on both parts, both races were on the verge of extinction.

Only in the show. I'd put money on the Others not having that origin in the books. 

There is a connection between WW and Cotf, I'm not saying they necessarily created them, but based on the description of the camouflaging body armor they both wear, there is a connection of sorts.

The years not making sense is just because so much was lost between the events happening and them being written down. 

 

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

1 hour ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

I think that what Sam found is a huge clue against taking the long history at face value. That doesn't mean that what he found in the vaults under Castle Black to be accurate. To me it just means that the record keeping is suspect at best and the chronology and history is significantly shorter than we had been led to believe (perhaps by as many as a few thousand years).

It could also be explained by the fact that when the NW started there was no written language for a few thousand years, only first men runes.

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

I've had mistrust for cotf before I read Dance, after reading Brans chapters in the cave I'm even more wary of them, their motivations, and those creepy undying trees that seem to enjoy blood. 

The Others take you, the Others take your eyes.

In the books it's always the Others take someone or something but the WW never actually take anything but lives. The Cotf, however seem to have hunted and taken animals, humans and giants, and brought them back to BR cave to be placed in niches carved into the stone and Wed to the tree against their will. I say against their will because no Giant, Bear, or Wolf would willingly be Wed to a tree, allowing roots to grow through their bodies.

I think these were early experiments with magic resulting in  skinchanging and greenseeing.

[Lord Lannister]

I have a larger problem with almost 12,000 years of recorded history with little technological or cultural progress.

[Tucu]

8 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I have a larger problem with almost 12,000 years of recorded history with little technological or cultural progress.

It is only 6000 (or 4000) years of recoded history in Westeros. And 8000 (or 6000) since the Long Night. In that time Westeros moved from an early Bronze Age to an early Modern Age. So they did in 6000 years (by the shortest account elapsed since the Long Night) what Europe did in almost 5000 years. Not bad having started from an apocalyptic event and facing long winters every few years.

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

On 8/3/2016 at 5:06 PM, Tucu said:

It is only 6000 (or 4000) years of recoded history in Westeros. And 8000 (or 6000) since the Long Night. In that time Westeros moved from an early Bronze Age to an early Modern Age. So they did in 6000 years (by the shortest account elapsed since the Long Night) what Europe did in almost 5000 years. Not bad having started from an apocalyptic event and facing long winters every few years.

But they haven't advanced at all, all of recorded human history is only about 6000 yrs.the earliest form of writing, sumerians, cuneiform whatever, up to now, with space flight, penicillin, and Google, some the same amount of time.

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, Crowing with Wolves said:

But they haven't advanced at all, all of recorded human history is only about 6000 yrs.the earliest form of writing, sumerians, cuneiform whatever, up to now, with space flight, penicillin, and Google, some the same amount of time.

They have advanced a lot. They started in prehistory with basic runes, bronze weapons and no seafaring vessels. They went from bronze, to iron and to steel. From runes in rocks to an availability of books that matches the time just before the movable type. They have developed ships that match the Age of Discovery (or even later). The architecture has changed. They developed telescopes, paper, wind mills, trebuchets and I could go on.

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

Westeros has had a medieval society for supposedly thousands of years, ours lasted a few hundred.

[Tucu]

Around 5th century to 15th century. So close to 1000 years.

It is not clear how medieval was the initial period shortly after the Andal invasion. They brought iron to Westeros, not all the technologies of the Middle Ages. They could have easily started as an Iron Age culture similar to the Hittites or Etruscans (to put some european theme in the mix). This would give more than 2500 years of European/Middle East history to compare too.