Why let the Twins be built

[YOVMO]

Ok, so 600 years earlier than common times the Frey's built a rickety bridge and over the course of three generations built up the Twins. Over the course of three generations why were they allowed to build this strong and obviously strategic castle which would control the flow of trade. If at any point in the 100 years or so from the first bridge to when the Twins was a mighty castle any lord would have decided to just burn them, kill them, claim their castle etc it would have been fairly easy.

So did the Frey's do something that warranted some lord to grant them that land and build the castle under their protection? Anyone with eyes would have seen, as the castle rose, that its completion would grant great wealth and power to its Lords.

[Lion of the West]

Why did the Starks allow the Manderlys to raise White Harbor when it would give them extreme wealth compared to other Houses? Why didn't the Gardeners or Tyrells destroy Oldtown to ensure that Hightower would never have any power to go against their lieges? Probably because it was certainly self-destructive with a slim chance of there being some kind of preemptive value in the act.

In feudalism the works of the lords belongs to their House and thus their descendents will reap the rewards from these works. If I knew that if I am too successful my liege will accept that someone just comes over and burns down my investments, or strip them from me himself, why bother doing any investments at all then?

[YOVMO]

3 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Why did the Starks allow the Manderlys to raise White Harbor when it would give them extreme wealth compared to other Houses? Why didn't the Gardeners or Tyrells destroy Oldtown to ensure that Hightower would never have any power to go against their lieges? Probably because it was certainly self-destructive with a slim chance of there being some kind of preemptive value in the act.

In feudalism the works of the lords belongs to their House and thus their descendents will reap the rewards from these works. If I knew that if I am too successful my liege will accept that someone just comes over and burns down my investments, or strip them from me himself, why bother doing any investments at all then?

See those questions are interesting too. I mean, take Bear Island. When Rowdy Roddy Stark won his wrestling match with king loren (?) from the Iron Islands to take bear island he gifted it to the Mormonts. This makes sense. It is more profitable to have a grateful vassal who will do fielty than to try to hold the island himself (also, I am so proud of using Rowdy Roddy Stark). I would assume, though you are accurate to say we don't know, that White Harbor is raised because the Stark's can't control everything and, like bear island, need strong Vassal lords. Same with Gardeners/Tyrells and Oldtown. I mean, yeah, all good questions and I wish we had the answers. However, the twins seems to have a different character to me.

The Riverlands are an area where there were constant struggles for power and supremacy were going on right up until the conquest. It was dragons that brought peace to the riverlands. When White Harbor was raised there was a King of Winter and the north was stable. And the Reach too was a stable environment where if someone was rewarded and raised to lord, giving them a holdfast or a castle to hold a land would have been mutually beneficial.

 

The Mormonts and the Manderlys holding Bear Island and White Harbor respectively (and paying their taxes) would have been a good arrangement not just for them but for the King in the North as well. But the Riverlands has been highly contested land from the dawn age all the way to the conquest, so the idea of building the twins over the course of 100 years seems more unlikely unless the land was originally given to the Frey's by some powerful lord and it was under their protection that the castle was built.

 

[CJ McLannister]

It may be that the frequent strife in the Riverlands is what allowed the Freys to build up the Twins in the first place.  Who was ruling the Riverlands then?  Was it the Storm King, or the Vale?  Was the location really all that strategic at that time If the North was an independent mostly insular kingdom?

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, CJ McLannister said:

It may be that the frequent strife in the Riverlands is what allowed the Freys to build up the Twins in the first place.  Who was ruling the Riverlands then?  Was it the Storm King, or the Vale?  Was the location really all that strategic at that time If the North was an independent mostly insular kingdom?

I mean, yeah....this is exactly what I am curious about. I felt it was the Storm king but could have been the vale. Can't remember. As for the location, it took 3 generations for them to go from a "rickety bridge" to the massive castles we know as the twins funded entirely by the taxes and tolls they collected so I would assume yes.

There has to be a solid 40 years where other lords can see the value of that area and can very easily show up and demand it. So I have to believe that either the Storm King or the Vale gave that area to the Frey's to hold in their name.

[Jon Fossoway]

Serves as a buffer zone for the dominant power in the region if I see a map, so I guess each major ruler in the riverlands just let them be. 

[Maxxine]

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Why did the Starks allow the Manderlys to raise White Harbor when it would give them extreme wealth compared to other Houses? Why didn't the Gardeners or Tyrells destroy Oldtown to ensure that Hightower would never have any power to go against their lieges? Probably because it was certainly self-destructive with a slim chance of there being some kind of preemptive value in the act.

In feudalism the works of the lords belongs to their House and thus their descendents will reap the rewards from these works. If I knew that if I am too successful my liege will accept that someone just comes over and burns down my investments, or strip them from me himself, why bother doing any investments at all then?

I don't think the White Harbor and Oldtown are an apples to apple comparison to question the OP is asking. IIRC the Manderlys were given WH because they were tasked with the defending the  area after the Starks "took them in." Considering their loyalty and the history of them receiving WH it's not that much of a question. And Oldtown is such an historical city. I believe it was there along with the Hightowers longer or just as long as the Gardners. Definitely longer the Tyrells and wouldn't have been an easy place to take down as the Freys before the castles were actually built.

On the other hands, the Freys are quite young as a family. Why would you let this upstart family take such a strategic location. Even if you hadn't thought about it before, once they started building it remove them and put in place one of your younger sons or a lesser house you're sure of their loyalty. Now I will say I'm not sure what all was going on 600 years ago. Maybe the first Frey wasn't untrustworthy or as someone else said at the time there was too much other stuff going on to make this a priority.

[Minstral]

The first two keeps and bridge were timber, meaning that someone wanted crossing with pretty cheap materials. Why let the freys build the place? Because at the time the freys were nobody that had little land and a weak castle made of wood. The wealth and power of the twins and greys as we know it was something that was built in generations.

[Red Man Racey]

18 minutes ago, Minstral said:

The first two keeps and bridge were timber, meaning that someone wanted crossing with pretty cheap materials. Why let the freys build the place? Because at the time the freys were nobody that had little land and a weak castle made of wood. The wealth and power of the twins and greys as we know it was something that was built in generations.

But this further begs the question that the OP asks. If the Freys were so insignificant, then they would have been that much easier to defeat. So who was it that was protecting them which prevented their destruction and allowed them to fortify that stranglehold on the river?

[Maxxine]

1 minute ago, Red Man Racey said:

But this further begs the question that the OP asks. If the Freys were so insignificant, then they would have been that much easier to defeat. So who was it that was protecting them which prevented their destruction and allowed them to fortify that stranglehold on the river?

Right. It seems like the Freys were the first ones to hold on to this idea of "hey we could build a bridge & charge a fee to cross we could make money." It seems like the first time a high lord comes by and these random Freys charge this toll they would either 1) just not pay it, kill them, and move on or 2) do 1) but then at least think "hey that was a good idea. Let me do it myself or get one of my sons to do it, or some other petty lord I trust to do it." It just interesting the Freys seemingly have no history before building this bridge other than their founder being given lands and nobility, but they're allowed to keep this great strategic location.

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

IIRC the Manderlys were given WH because they were tasked with the defending the  area after the Starks "took them in."

This is exactly correct. And when given WH they had the time to build the castle living under the peace of the King in the North.

 

1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

Maybe the first Frey wasn't untrustworthy

Forrest Frey is, IIRC, the oldest Frey we know of and he was, by all accounts a noble and valiant knight so yes, this is def a possibility. However, some details right?

 

44 minutes ago, Minstral said:

The wealth and power of the twins and greys as we know it was something that was built in generations.

Exactly. However, building a castle takes time. It is said 3 generations to build the twins. So lets say, for even numbers 100 years. So there are the freys of the crossing with their wooden bridge. 30 years pass and they are bringing in enough dough that the castle starts going up. What is to stop literally any well established house to see this, walk on up with their army and tell the freys to take a hike. They are not a powerful family at the time. They aren't rich yet and what money they have is being spent on building their castle and they are 70 years from having a castle which would represent a formidable obstacle to an invader. Yet 30 years in, even if no one saw the wisdom in taking that area at the time, it would have become abundantly clear that this was a very valuable and strategic location which is weakly held by a family that no one really cares about.

 

 

In the end, in order to build a castle without a major house or even a band of brigands coming along and kicking your butt to the curb and taking it you have to be doing it under the protection of a house that has the power to allow for safe building (or do is so far out of the way or in a place with natural boundaries so you can spend a century of unmolested labor but that is not nearly the case in the Riverlands).

 

This means, to my thinking though I would very much appreciate other suggestions, that the Frey's had either started paying taxes to an overlord for protection (either Storm King or Vale) but this seems to be a difficult one as there were constant wars and areas in the riverlands changed hands too frequently to allow 3 generations to go by. Plus, at the outset, a lord would have seen the immense value at some point in the first, say 20-60 years, before the Frey's had the wherewithal to defend themselves. The other option is that the early Frey's were "taken in" like the maderly's or asked to hold the green fork in the name of, maybe, the Storm King. But what would those early Frey's have done for some king such that they would give them the opportunity to become great lords rather than, say, any one else...some second or third son, some brave hedge knight who proved his loyalty and valor, etc. 

 

[Jon Fossoway]

34 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

 

 

Forrest Frey is, IIRC, the oldest Frey we know of and he was, by all accounts a noble and valiant knight so yes, this is def a possibility. However, some details right?

If lord Walder is by any means an example of how Freys have behaved in the past, one could say they are cautious. Forrest Frey joined the blacks, but the Stark also did, so they had their backs covered; lord Frey who went to Whitewalls arranged a marriage of his young daughter to the aging lord Butterwell and apparently was working with or tipped off Bloodraven at the same time, when he saw with his own eyes, that the 'rebellion' was in no way going to succeed. Walder is called late Walder Frey but that could also be taken as a token of his cautiousness, he also arranged a marriage of one of his daughters to a king, and when that failed, he still got another Great House clutched by marriage. These dudes are not stupid. They could have held any possible invaders, when the Twins were being built, at bay by doing that spider-web marriage system Walder currently has with his sons and daughters (who are linked by marriage almost everywhere), but that's especulation. 

Perhaps they built the bridge at first and managed it from afar, and then, very quickly, fortified it. 

Maybe it's just plot by GRRM.

Either way, dudes got away with it.

[Trigger Warning]

If you attack your vassals because they built a bridge your other vassals will notice. If other vassals attacked the Freys it would be their overlords duty to punish them. Considering they'd been granted significant lands they were probably quite well ingratiated with those initial overlords as well. 

Also whoever happens to be the Frey's overlord benefits anyway, they have vassals with a fortified crossing across the river that said overlord didn't have to finance the construction of and will likely gain more taxes from the Freys than they would if they were just paying from general agricultural gains. 

The Freys must have been given significant lands with enough wealth to undertake the construction of even wooden castles and a bridge of that size so it's not like they were weak anyway.

[Rise]

Maybe the riverlands have more problems with stormlords and iron island that time, they simply didn't have time or interest to take twins from Freys, since Twins are if not northern most castle at riverlands, its very near that.

[BricksAndSparrows]

I think I remember reading that the bridge and keeps took hundreds of years to build. Maybe that was because it was burned and/or otherwise assaulted during its construction. 

[YOVMO]

9 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

They could have held any possible invaders, when the Twins were being built, at bay by doing that spider-web marriage system Walder currently has with his sons and daughters

Yup.  That would have done the trick. This is essentially what I am getting at. Was this the case?

 

7 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

Also whoever happens to be the Frey's overlord benefits anyway, they have a vassals with a fortified crossing across the river that said overlord didn't have to finance the construction of and likely gain more taxes from the Freys than they would if they were just paying from general agricultural gains. 

Again, I agree with this too. However, this is why I asked the question. I mean to say that it was possible because they had an interconnected web of marriages or because their overlords saw gain in it and made sure they were under their protection are both perfectly valid possibilities. I just was wondering if anyone had any insight into the way this actually played out.

The fact remains that House Frey is a relatively new house. Their power derives from the wealth they have built over the centuries by manning a castle which collected taxes and tolls.

This castle was built in the Riverlands at a time when the Riverlands were a disputed territory and when there was a lot of power shifts going on there. It took 3 generations to build and the Frey's, until after the Twin's were built, were a nobody family.

So yes, every way people have given in the thread WOULD explain a way they were able to, over 3 generations, build a valuable castle and bridge on a valuable piece of land. What it doesn't do is give any evidence of how it actually happened. Mind you, I am not asking a lot. I am pretty tin foiley. So I am willing to go down any road so long as it is not impossible or logically contradictory, but just saying things that could have happened down help. I mean, the frays could have also had a 38 thousand man standing army and no castle and that's how. Or maybe Bran the Builder was resurrected by a red priest and built the entire castle in a fortnight.

 

I mean, I am obviously kidding with the last two, but the point remains. Yes, your reasons the Frey's could build the twins are perfectly valid but there seems to be nothing in the history to suggest they actually happened. I was just wondering if there was something out there that someone could explain to me that would clarify.

 

6 minutes ago, Rise said:

Maybe the riverlands have more problems with stormlords and iron island that time, they simply didn't have time or interest to take twins from Freys, since Twins are if not northern most castle at riverlands, its very near that.

THis might have been true at first and I suspect it was. However, the Frey's were a poor family but the fact that they built their castle collecting tolls over 3 generations. I mean, some lord with a standing army must have, 3-5 decades before the Frey's had any real fortification that would have mattered, taken it into their head to take the burgeoning castle from them unless they had protection from an overlord. But if they had protection from an overlord then 1) Who was that overlord and 2) Why give it to the frays and not anyone else...I mean, what made the Frey's so special.

[Lord Lannister]

If a liege lord starts hindering their bannermen's efforts to build up themselves, their bannermen's efforts will start going into overthrowing that liege lord.

[Jon Fossoway]

2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

If a liege lord starts hindering their bannermen's efforts to build up themselves, their bannermen's efforts will start going into overthrowing that liege lord.

Well, Fairmarket and Saltpans growth was hindered by the river kings.

[Trigger Warning]

According to the wiki the Teagues united the Riverlands and the Storm Kings toppled them 360 years before the Conquest. Assuming the Teagues provided adequate protection to the Freys they'd have more than enough time to establish themselves as a power in the 240 years prior to the Durrandons taking the Riverlands even if the Riverlands were unstable in those 240 years. The Freys would be able to protect themselves anyway in regards to conflict between other competing nobles in the Riverlands, if after being granted lands sufficient enough to finance two wooden castles and a bridge immediately after they were granted then these lands must have been quite large, making them powerful nobles in their own right, this of course brings marriages and alliances with the other local nobles that would wish to benefit from the growth of house Frey. We also don't know how long three generations were and the timescale in which the Twins were actually built and in what order. 

All in all, with their own power, protection from an overlord and local alliances it wouldn't be a simple matter to just roll in and destroy the Twins. Also they probably had some minor castles for protection anyway, I find it highly unlikely that they'd been granted this prime spot of land without the previous owners having built anything on it. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The Freys control a bridge and some lands on the Green Fork. They don't control the entire Green Fork, other Lords who rule lands on the Green Fork were able to do the same, it seems that the Freys took it more seriously and put more labor and effort into it than their neighbors.

 

There has been no native Riverland King while the Freys have had that bridge, no Riverlander was in a position to demand that land and likely the Ironborn and Stormking did not mind as long as they paid fealty.

By the time the Targaryens conquered the Freys were likely strong enough to defend their own lands and since then they will have grown stronger as a united Westeros would have meant some of the border regions will have seen population spikes.