Intriguing mystery swords

[Seams]

6 hours ago, gregg22 said:

I think Illyn's sword represents the irony that the crown is prepared for the wrong enemy. Apparently the sword is silver for killing (were)wolves, but the sword is backwards .

We learn earlier in ASOS that dragonglass blades kills the Others. Then it appears in the hilt of Illyn's sword, as an ornament, instead of in the blade, where it would kill the true enemy, which they fail to see. The point is nailed home by Sansa contrasting it to Ice.

Excellent points!

Based on the quote from Ser Dontos, I am starting to wonder whether there might be a silver and dragonglass combination that is magical or lethal. The blades and arrowheads that Ghost finds on the fist of the first men were wrapped with a horn. Was that horn silver? Did it have runes on it? The big horn that Melisandre burned had metal bands with runes on the bands. Tormund Giantsbane wore arm bands with runes on them, and I'm wondering whether they came from an old horn.

[Seams]

Adding to the list of intriguing swords:

Howd Wanderer swore his oath upon his sword, as nicked and pitted a piece of iron as Jon had ever seen. Devyn Sealskinner presented him with a sealskin hat, Harle the Huntsman with a bear-claw necklace. The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred. And on and on and on.

As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gemstones, bracelets, rings, niello cups and golden goblets, warhorns and drinking horns, a green jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls … all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt.

And there were queerer things: a toy mammoth made of actual mammoth hair, an ivory phallus, a helm made from a unicorn's head, complete with horn. How much food such things would buy in the Free Cities, Jon Snow could not begin to say.

(ADwD, Jon XII)

I searched on the word "treasure" because of a line in AGoT where Petyr Baelish says that Ned's gratitude is a treasure. It was such an odd phrase that I thought there might be a motif there. I don't see a pattern in references to treasure at this point, but several times the word seems to refer to a sword, including when Brienne unsheaths Oathkeeper for the first time. Theon says that he hid is treasures in the boles of ancient oaks in the Winterfell gods wood, and I suspect that his treasures may have been swords stolen from the Winterfell crypt. Of course, Tyrion and Penny are among Yezzan's treasures, and they are not swords so, as I say, there may be no pattern behind this word.

But the treasured broken sword brought in by a wildling warrior reminded me of Old Nan's story:

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

(AGoT, Bran IV)

The three sapphires are the best clue, along with any hidden meanings contained in the other treasures listed in the surrounding paragraphs. For those who think Brienne and/or Jaime might be the Last Hero reborn, the sapphires in this broken wildling sword might provide a Tarth-related hint. But it may be no more than the embodiment of Bowen Marsh's fear that the broken remnants of Mance Rayder's wildling force can be reconstituted and turn on the Night's Watch:

"A broken sword can be reforged. A broken sword can kill."

(ADwD, Jon XI)

[Seams]

I think this thread might be the place to post this inquiry: would there be participation and interest in a close reading of details about armor and weapons? Particularly swords, of course.

On @SeaWitch's recent thread about the Valyrian steel dagger used by the catspaw in Bran's sleeping chamber, I posted the following comment:

I'm starting to think about the need for a systematic analysis of hilts and pommels. (Maybe also sheaths.) I suspect that dagger with the dragonbone hilt is going to lead us to a Targaryen or someone of Valyrian origin. I realize that witness claims (possibly including some false claims) have put that dagger in the possession of non-Targs, and that dragon bone has been seen in other contexts in the books. I may be wrong, but I think GRRM is using hilts to give us clear connections to the person wielding the weapon.

@Traverys responded that this kind of a re-read thread might be a good idea, and added that roundels on armor could be part of the analysis.

Some of the symbolism seems fairly obvious: Robert had antlers on his helmet, the Hound wears a dog's head helmet, Tywin wants gold and rubies on the hilt and sheath of the swords he commissions for Joffrey and Jaime.

Other details are harder to decipher: Why did Ser Ilyn Payne have a silver sword covered with runes at Joffrey's wedding feast? Why do rusty helmets wash up at the Quiet Isle, but swords from the same river come out of the water "shining"? Why is obsidian both a weapon and a crystal-ball type of candle? Why did Robert use a hammer instead of a sword? Why don't more people use axes?

Then there are fine distinctions such as why some swords get a name and others do not. Why do some swords go to eldest sons and others do not. Which swords have been used in combat and which have been awol? Why does it matter that Widow's Wail was not made for slicing pies?

If there is interest in this, should it be a systematic re-read, taking chapters in order and systematically examining each weapon or discussion of weapons in order? Or should it be organized around specific topics?

For an instance of a topic, I once posted something about the apparent association of Lannisters with "throwing arms," and offered ideas comparing Jaime's disembodied arm to trebuchets. The thread didn't attract much response, and I wouldn't want to start a whole new series if people are not all that interested. (Although sometimes I hope that the threads without much discussion are being read and enjoyed, but are found to be so complete that people can't think of anything to add or to question.)

Maybe a new thread discussing all details about weapons and armor is too broad, and it would be better just to get a grip (so to speak) on hilts and pommels as I originally suggested on the dagger thread.

I am nearing the end of the ACoK direwolf re-read, and had planned to drop that topic when the last chapter is posted. If I did help to organize a new weapons-focused re-read, I would hope for a few interested people to work with me to help provide content. If I use the search site to come up with a list of relevant chapters or topics, who would be interested in taking an assignment or two, and helping to keep a thread going? We could pin down the details via p.m. if there is interest.

Anyone? Bueller?

[Traverys]

I'm still pondering everything, but the thing that stood out most to me (that no one else has mentions) is that Ilyn's sword was six feet long... I'm six feet tall and that just seems like an impractical sword for the average person to wield. It may be practical for a Clegane, but Payne is never mentioned as being exceptionally tall.  To me that speaks that it's largely for ceremonial purposes, which lines up with someone pointing out that silver is impractical for swords made for battle. The joke used in the series "useless as nipples on a breastplate" comes to mind.

I don't think it's clear if the sword was forged for the purpose of cutting the pie or if Joffrey just didn't want to dirty his own sword... knowing Joffrey, the latter seems most likely. Further along in the story, when Ilyn attends Jaime to Riverun, he's wielding a "common sword."

I doubt I've been very helpful, but there's a lot of quotes provided that are worth pondering.

Actually, what caught my interest the most was the theory that Tywin killed Joffrey. I've been fairly convinced that many things are not as resolved as we had assumed... for example, for a couple of books Jon Arryn's death seemed like it had been solved but it really hadn't. As GRRM stated, the "astute" reader will have come to the conclusion of Lady Olenna and Littlefinger collaborating, but that doesn't mean that someone didn't get to him first. I'm fairly convinced that the same situation occurred with Tywin; Tyrion killed him before poison (Widow's Blood) could take full effect. 

The above paragraph was mostly to bring up if the sword could represent, in any way, the intersecting assassination plots that were likely occurring during the Purple Wedding. It has a skull on the pommel, but that doesn't seem so out of place for a weapon. But... it's not really a weapon, is it?

[Darkstream]

On 03/08/2016 at 9:08 PM, Seams said:

This is at the Quiet Isle, strategically located where anything that gets caught up in the river will wash up on its shores. But here's the thing: Why would the helmets be rusted but the swords be shining? Also, notice that the word "swords" is followed by the word "aye". Because of the pun on "ice" and "eyes," I'm always interested in references to swords and ice/eyes and now, aye. What is the Elder Brother telling the reader here? 

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but is not the blade of a sword a much stronger and durable steel than that used for armor? I would suspect that the process used to forge a sword would render it much more impervious to wear and tear/rusting than that of armor.

[Byfort of Corfe]

I think that it is much more likely that if any sword "cursed" or killed Joffrey it is "Widow's Wail".  The smith who is making it has tried over and over to get the Crimson (a Lannister color) into the blade yet the natural grey black (a Stark color) keeps re-emerging.  He tells Tywin and Tyrion both that Valeryian steel "remembers".  "Ice" has been the ancestral sword of the Starks for as long as can be remembered and it is the symbol of Northern Power.  And now it has been melted down and given to the boy who had Ned executed.  I believe that both swords," Widow's Wail" and "Oathkeeper" are cursed.  Now "Oathkeeper is being used by Brienne who is on a quest to save Sansa and Arya, as such it is being wielded for the safety and defense of Starks and so it's curse won't affect Brienne.  But any Lannister or anyone wielding "Widow's Wail" is bound to feel the curse, unless and until it is returned to the Starks to be reforged into "Ice".

 

Now in Fantasy terms the possession of a cursed object is a curious thing.  The object itself may or may not bring about the subject's demise.  Sometimes the mere ownership of the article leads to "bad luck".  Sansa could have forgotten the hairnet, the Queen of Thorns might not have been able to get one of the amethysts, Joffrey might have taken another cup of wine.  It will remain to be seen if the current Lannister "owner" of "Widow's Wail". King Tommen, has something untoward happen to him.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

commenting for later. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Interesting thread @Seams, I do love a good swords thread

So, mystery swords hey! Firstly the silver warg killing swords, well I think it is indeed a nod to the real world silver killing weirwolves tradition. But that doesn't mean I don't think it is important. In fact we can take away the fact that GRRM included it in the books means that it is a thing in universe. Now wether it being something that smallfolks think works against wargs or if it is an actual effective weapon against them is another story. I guess time may tell. Do any of the Stark kids wear silver other than Sansa? might the tendancy for the Lannisters to put her in silver jewelry (when we look at sansa's jewels most have been gifts from Joffrey during their betrothal) have been deliberate? Obviously they are well aware that she no longer has Lady, but how much does Cersei or Tywin say, know about skinchangers? They're bound to know a few folktales.  What I'm getting at is could wearing silver dampen a wargs power? Were the Lannisters deliberatly  giving her silver to wear to prevent her forming a bond with any animals? I think I'm getting a bit tin foil hat here. So please don't infer too much certainty on my part here. i'm kinda spitballing. 

Sansa barely gets any oportunity in the RK to even have contact with animals. The only time she does is when she goes hawking with the Tyrells, and she chooses a Merlin. We are not given a chapter showing this ocasion, she recolects it later. I think personally that she will go hawking in the Vale too, maybe as a date with Harry? and once again choose a Merlin. Which is europes smallest bird of prey. I've seen them they're tiny compared to the rest. So it's a little bird and now that she is Alayne she doesn't wear much jewelry at all and chooses things such as a plain velver ribbon over all Lysa's finery.  

Do we see Bran or Jon wearing silver? my guess is Arya doesn't because she has not been in a posistion to wear any jewelry at all. 

I don't think Tywin was truly forging silver swords. But I think the rumour that he was is informative, as are the rumours of Robb turning into a wolf, and there being multiple Stark wargs in his army, and of course the rumour that Sansa turned into a wolf with bat wings and flew away. 

It is pretty clear that despite the Maesters seeming long term war on magic that the talk of magic has never abated in Westeros. Maesters only provide service to the high born, they have never influenced the smallfolk. Who seem to believe in magic well. remember Nimble Dick telling Brienne of his folk hero knight who had a woods witch wife that kissed the severed heads of his fallen foes. His telling of that story sounds like a man who believes it was true. Not of a man who tells it as a far fetched fairy tale.

I'm afraid I can't search for silver being worn by Starks right now as my internet is fucking atrocious and not loading pages well at all. But I'd be interested if anyone else can look it up on A Search of Ice & Fire.

So Illyn Paynes new sword. You know what that sword always struck me as crass and tasteless and thus I assumed commisioned by Tywin. Cos his taste is appalingly OTT.  And again silver is not a metal which is effective as a weapon, but is one in which runes could be etched. i don't think you'd get much joy etching anything into steel. But am by no means an expert on mettal.  The Obsidian skull just seems too cheesey to me. Especially when you add in the ruby eyes.  Maybe I am wrong and it is old and came from Roberts armoury as others suggested. But it felt so tywinesque in it's OTT'ness. In which case I doubt the runes are significant. But more for show.  

I do like the idea that Tywin may have been also attempting to kill Joffrey. I agree he had motive and his wearing a glove does seem mighty odd. But I wonder what the pay off would be narativly to have the Tyrells be inncoent. Or rather that there were more people seeking to off Joff. If Illyn was delivering death via the swords hilt then he must have known as otherwise Tywin can not garuntee that he himself would not touch and be effected by the poison.  Illyn dying too would be like pointing a great big sign to the murder weapon, as the sword would be the common denominator in the deaths, and it would be easily traced back to Tywin. Again he can not be assured that Marge won't grasp the hilt too. Which is too risky given the alliance with the Tyrells is so important. All together I just think the idea of contact poison is too risky, plus as far as I am aware we have never been told of any such poisons in world? I recall some years ago a thread on poisons and am pretty certain non acted in that manner. 

I'm most interested in the notion of a silver sword and of those runes in regard to Illyn's sword tbh. 

Other items which have runes on, include the crown of winter both past and present (I think) and the bronze dagger which the widow of the waterfront has on her table when Jorah gives her gloves. The Royces armour; which is bronze, but the younger Royces at the Tourney of the Hand have the same runes on their armour done in silver fillergie. And of course Tormunds gold arm bands and the enormous horn at the wall. As well as on stones throughout the land. All of these things are howether soft metals or stone. Which kinda backs up my feeling that Steel would be too hard to carve into. The younger Royces wear armour with the runes done on in fillergie, which again indicates steel is too hard to incise into. 

I'm of the mind that VS IS dragon steel. I used to think not, but again what point does that being the case serve the story? I don't see it as likely tbh. I'm pretty convinced now that the VS swords are important, mainly due to Curled Fingers threads. 

I think the horn found with the obsidian cache is just a horn made from a horn. It is not described as being carved with runes at all. I think that, and hope that one of teh wildlings will set about translating some of the runes, so that we can know what they say. There are some amongst them who speak the Old tongue and I hold out hope that some will read runes too, Rattleshirt tells Jon he'll use his teeth to cast his runes so I think that there is a good chance some Wildlings read runes still. 

I think the missing swords will mostly show up, Lammentation was lost in the Dragon pit, yes? So chances are some one picked it up and kept it, an opportunist smallfolk maybe? or a hedge knight caught up in the fray. Maybe the current owner has it stashed away, Maybe the person who took it or maybe they've sold it on. This was after all 200 years ago ish. It might have passed through several hands in that time.  Orphan-maker. Unless it is officially missing is in my opinion where you'd expect it to be, in the hands of house Roxton.

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I am very interested in the idea of doing a study on sword hilts though. So count me in on that one. 

[Traverys]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I am very interested in the idea of doing a study on sword hilts though. So count me in on that one. 

I'm still game too. We've seen fairly consistently that GRRM uses gems/jewels/colors for things. Why not sword hilts, especially because so many people carry them in the story.

[Cridefea]

On 10/5/2017 at 3:51 PM, Seams said:

would there be participation and interest in a close reading of details about armor and weapons? Particularly swords, of course.

I'm in!

Great thread by the way .... I've finished AFfC and I'm re-reading ADwD now. I had noticed the swords in Quite Isle, too. That part piqued my interest.

[Lord Wraith]

On 5/10/2017 at 9:51 AM, Seams said:

 

Some of the symbolism seems fairly obvious: Robert had antlers on his helmet, the Hound wears a dog's head helmet, Tywin wants gold and rubies on the hilt and sheath of the swords he commissions for Joffrey and Jaime.

Other details are harder to decipher: Why did Ser Ilyn Payne have a silver sword covered with runes at Joffrey's wedding feast? Why do rusty helmets wash up at the Quiet Isle, but swords from the same river come out of the water "shining"? Why is obsidian both a weapon and a crystal-ball type of candle? Why did Robert use a hammer instead of a sword? Why don't more people use axes?

Then there are fine distinctions such as why some swords get a name and others do not. Why do some swords go to eldest sons and others do not. Which swords have been used in combat and which have been awol? Why does it matter that Widow's Wail was not made for slicing pies?

If there is interest in this, should it be a systematic re-read, taking chapters in order and systematically examining each weapon or discussion of weapons in order? Or should it be organized around specific topics?

For an instance of a topic, I once posted something about the apparent association of Lannisters with "throwing arms," and offered ideas comparing Jaime's disembodied arm to trebuchets. The thread didn't attract much response, and I wouldn't want to start a whole new series if people are not all that interested. (Although sometimes I hope that the threads without much discussion are being read and enjoyed, but are found to be so complete that people can't think of anything to add or to question.)

Maybe a new thread discussing all details about weapons and armor is too broad, and it would be better just to get a grip (so to speak) on hilts and pommels as I originally suggested on the dagger thread.

I am nearing the end of the ACoK direwolf re-read, and had planned to drop that topic when the last chapter is posted. If I did help to organize a new weapons-focused re-read, I would hope for a few interested people to work with me to help provide content. If I use the search site to come up with a list of relevant chapters or topics, who would be interested in taking an assignment or two, and helping to keep a thread going? We could pin down the details via p.m. if there is interest.

Anyone? Bueller?

Also there are plenty of Targaryens that had dragon helmets, Aemon the Dragonknight springs to mind immediately.

Robert was freakishly strong in his youth. Ned mentions he couldn't even lift his warhammer. Robert was all about the melee and hammers are really good for that. Swords have always been the noble weapons but Robert was all about practicality so he used a warhammer. Brienne also used a Mace against Loras because she is big and strong.

As far as axes I know some Northerns use them. Also they are one of the key symbols of the Andals. Lastly House Celtigar has a Valyrian Steel Axe.

I think Westeros is sword obsessed for the most part.

[SeaWitch]

A six foot blade is basically a claymore.  The longest one existing is over two metres.  You go with momentum and weight.  Essentially ten kilos of metal swung into someone.

[Seams]

On 5/10/2017 at 9:51 AM, Seams said:

Maybe a new thread discussing all details about weapons and armor is too broad, and it would be better just to get a grip (so to speak) on hilts and pommels as I originally suggested on the dagger thread.

I am nearing the end of the ACoK direwolf re-read, and had planned to drop that topic when the last chapter is posted. If I did help to organize a new weapons-focused re-read, I would hope for a few interested people to work with me to help provide content. If I use the search site to come up with a list of relevant chapters or topics, who would be interested in taking an assignment or two, and helping to keep a thread going? We could pin down the details via p.m. if there is interest.

I have not forgotten this and I thank anyone still interested for your patience. The Search of Ice and Fire site suddenly does not work on my home computer, so I have to go to the library and use their computers for systematic searches on GRRM's key words. (Libraries are so great!) Today I finished taking notes on hilts, pommels and grips. Whew!

But the upshot of my research is that I'm not sure there will be enough material for a systematic re-read that focuses on hilts and pommels. A few interesting posts? Yes. And maybe that's a good thing. I'm getting to the point where I see the connections between GRRM's symbols, and how one thing leads to another. So a focus on a narrow topic can be difficult to maintain.

Here are the interesting things I discovered by searching on hilts, pommels and grips:

- Pommels tend to be either heads with notable eyes or notable mouths.

- If they are not heads, they are hearts.

- A few are nondescript shapes - Needle's pommel is smooth; Nightfall's pommel is just a moonstone.

- One exception to the general head/heart pattern is the sword of Ser Loras, which has a rose-shaped pommel.

- It's not just the shapes of the pommels that are significant; GRRM often tells us the material from which the pommel is made - dragonglass for Ser Ilyn's death's head; gold and jewels for various Lannister lions; silver for Lord Commander Mormont's bear; "pale stone" for Jon Snow's wolf's head; star-shaped crystals for the Warrior's Sons (knights serving the High Septon); an alabaster rose for Ser Loras; a moonstone for Ser Harras Harlaw (the Valyrian steel sword Nightfall); a ruby heart for Ser Lyn Corbray (V. steel sword Lady Forlorn).

- There is a lot of fingering, touching and brushing of pommels, as well as some leaning on them. There is a lot of touching, laying hands on, resting hands on, slapping, sweating on, reaching for, clasping, curling around and gripping of hilts.

- The author seems to make a point (so to speak) in certain situations of swords or daggers being handed to someone hilt first.

- "Grip" is a complicated word: sometimes it seems to be just a synonym for a hilt, but it also allows the author to extend the hilt motif. People and other things can be gripped, and I think GRRM uses the word with swords as well as with people and other things to show how people can be victimized by being turned into weapons, controlled, threatened or put at risk. (This may go back to the first wordplay I examined, with swords and wards.) We also hear figurative uses of the word: Theon wishes he could tighten his "grip" on Winterfell by marrying a Stark daughter, but later he tells us that Winterfell is "gripped" by frost except in the relative warmth of the godswood.

- Dalla's advice to Jon about a sword without a hilt is probably worth a good, long analytical post. We see a few hilts without swords - Ser Waymar's blade shatters, leaving only the hilt; in ADwD, Jon XII, a wildling contributes a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt to the wagon where treasures are being collected. But fire is also referred to as the sword without a hilt, and we did see Jon Snow pick up a flaming log from a fireplace and use it to defeat the wight in Mormont's bedchamber.

- Daario's hilts are naked women and we hear several times that he brushes his thumbs over them; Dany is jealous of the hilts at one point.

- Dany gets a woman's head pommel of her own - on the dragonbone handle of the whip Kraznys hands her when she gives him the end of the chain connected to Drogon, at the purchase of the unsullied army. Kraznys tells her the whip is named "The Harpy's Fingers."

- The makers of some hilts seem important - Jon makes an "ugly" hilt for his dragonglass dagger; Halder and Pate (both Night's Watch builders?) make the stone pommel for Jon's sword; Sam Tarly obtains the garnets for the wolf's eyes on Jon's pommel: Arya makes herself a sword out of an old broom. I may be wrong, but I believe that we don't hear about a hilt or pommel made by a smith. We hear from Tobho Mott about the making of the blades for Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, but he doesn't mention the hilts or pommels (I should go back and double-check that) and then Tywin instructs him on the making of the scabbard.

- Hilts are often described as sticking up above a knight's shoulder. This struck me as significant in connection with the Eyrie, where the castle and the waterfall known as Alyssa's Tears are both described as sitting on the shoulders of the mountain. But it's also significant because of the head motif - pommels are often shaped like heads; heads rest on shoulders; people who are beheaded no longer have heads on their shoulders.

- I can't help looking for wordplay. For "hilt," I wonder about a possible connection with "lith," a combining word meaning "stone." (e.g., paleolithic, neolithic, megalith) We also see stone heads (the Baelish family sigil is the head of the Titan of Braavos) and stone hearts (Catelyn, after her drowning), so the head and heart pommels could easily connect to the stone heads and hearts in the books. (See the discussion of Longclaw's pommel, below, for a theory about pommel wordplay.)

- Longclaw's pommel is the most complicated symbol, based on what I've noticed so far. Here are some of the possibilities for discussion and analysis:

• Is Longclaw a skinchanger, since it goes from being a bear to being a wolf?
• The silver bear melts when Mormont's sleeping chamber is burned during the defense agains the wight. How does this relate to the melted silver brooch when Theon burns the bodies of the miller's boys, who are dressed in Bran and Rickon's clothes? Is there meaning in silver being replaced by pale stone, when the sword passes from Mormont to Jon Snow? (In a maester's chain, silver represents both healing and killing, according the Maester Cressen.)
• The word "pommel" has its origin in Latin and old French, and means little apple. Obviously, the word is also related to pomegranate. The pommel made for Jon Snow features garnet eyes, so this is an even stronger link to pomegranates, which are featured on the sigil of House Marsh. Bowen Marsh stabs Jon Snow, "for the Watch" at the end of ADwD. Additionally, there is a theory somewhere in the forum about apple symbolism being linked to kings - I think someone mentioned it in an old thread I started about the function of inns. Edit: There was apple stuff in that consideration of inns, but the comment and some follow-up I was remembering were in this thread about the silent old man Jon refuses to kill.
• After receiving his sword, Jon returns to his sleeping chamber and shows the pommel to the direwolf Ghost saying, "Look, it's you."

I think I may have to go back to the library and do some more searching on key words. "Grip" was an obvious synonym for "hilt," but I think I might need to also search on "handle" and some other possibilities. Long ago, I noticed that people like Olenna and Lysa grab Sansa by the wrist. I wondered whether these were symbolic attempts to use Sansa as a weapon - maybe a woman's version of taking up arms. So I may have to look for references to wrists, to see whether they are the human equivalent of a hilt. (If they are, then Jaime could turn into the "sword without a hilt" about which Dalla advised Jon Snow.)

It also became clear that blades can be unique and might have to be linked to the discussion of hilts and pommels. Just a very few important swords have fullers, and GRRM is specific about whether there are two or three on the blades that have them. A number of blades catch reflected light in specific ways - that seems very important. And we see various colors, shapes, lengths.

And then there are scabbards and wrappings . . .

Might as well start the discussion here, if people are so inclined, instead of starting a new re-read thread. If any of these ideas seems to need its own thread, we can always spin one off.

[Cridefea]

Great work @Seams ! I think you're right, there are not so many descriptions of hilts and pommels. I had found some infos  in SSM about VS swords, I don't remember if there was something about hilts or pommels too.

On 28/5/2017 at 4:06 AM, Seams said:

Is Longclaw a skinchanger, since it goes from being a bear to being a wolf?

good idea!

On 28/5/2017 at 4:06 AM, Seams said:

Dalla's advice to Jon about a sword without a hilt is probably worth a good, long analytical post.

yeah, where did she said it?

On 28/5/2017 at 4:06 AM, Seams said:

It also became clear that blades can be unique and might have to be linked to the discussion of hilts and pommels. Just a very few important swords have fullers, and GRRM is specific about whether there are two or three on the blades that have them. A number of blades catch reflected light in specific ways - that seems very important. And we see various colors, shapes, lengths

yes, they're linked. And I think colors and lights are really important ... Maybe we have to consider hilts pommels blades shape colors and names (?) in their entirety.

[Seams]

56 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

On 5/27/2017 at 10:06 PM, Seams said:

Dalla's advice to Jon about a sword without a hilt is probably worth a good, long analytical post.

yeah, where did she said it?

"The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." (ASoS, Jon X)

[ravenous reader]

On 5/27/2017 at 10:06 PM, Seams said:

• Is Longclaw a skinchanger, since it goes from being a bear to being a wolf?
• The silver bear melts when Mormont's sleeping chamber is burned during the defense agains the wight. How does this relate to the melted silver brooch when Theon burns the bodies of the miller's boys, who are dressed in Bran and Rickon's clothes? Is there meaning in silver being replaced by pale stone, when the sword passes from Mormont to Jon Snow? (In a maester's chain, silver represents both healing and killing, according the Maester Cressen.)
• The word "pommel" has its origin in Latin and old French, and means little apple. Obviously, the word is also related to pomegranate.

You are on the right track.  'Pommel' also has the additional meaning of 'saddle,' reinforcing the skinchanger theme.

The 'pommel' is the host/mount and the 'sword'/rider is the skinchanger.  In sexual terms, every sword -- phallic symbol -- has its vaginal analogue -- pommel, hilt and/or sheath.  Longclaw's pommel is pale stone indicating the weirwood/Ghost (the 'wife for life') providing the hilt to Jon's black Valyrian steel sword without a hilt.  This is the proof:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon V

Just then one of the dogs had raised his head and growled, and he had to move away quickly, before he was seen. I was not meant to hear that, he thought. He considered taking the tale to Mormont, but he could not bring himself to inform on his brothers, even brothers such as Chett and the Sisterman. It was just empty talk, he told himself. They are cold and afraid; we all are. It was hard waiting here, perched on the stony summit above the forest, wondering what the morrow might bring. The unseen enemy is always the most fearsome.

Jon slid his new dagger from its sheath and studied the flames as they played against the shiny black glass. He had fashioned the wooden hilt himself, and wound hempen twine around it to make a grip. Ugly, but it served. Dolorous Edd opined that glass knives were about as useful as nipples on a knight's breastplate, but Jon was not so certain. The dragonglass blade was sharper than steel, albeit far more brittle.

It must have been buried for a reason.

 

[Pain killer Jane]

On 8/4/2016 at 8:20 PM, Seams said:

(This has had some discussion on the puns ans wordplay thread - I speculated that the pie somehow alludes to the "little birds" who work for Varys, and "slicing pies" is wordplay with "Lysene spies." But I haven't had a complete "Aha!" moment yet regarding pies.)

Seams, did you ever consider that a 'pie of little birds' is referring to 'piety' and being 'pious' especially now that the Faith of the Seven is ruled by the High Sparrow and his sparrows?

This isn't really hidden and I am sure someone has noticed this but

Quote

"If she tries I will have my brother kill her."

Knowing what needed to be done was one thing, though; knowing how to do it was another. Jaime could no longer be relied on. A sudden sickness would be best, but the gods were seldom so obliging. How then? A knife, a pillow, a cup of heart's bane? All of those posed problems. When an old man died in his sleep no one thought twice of it, but a girl of six-and-ten found dead in bed was certain to raise awkward questions. Besides, Margaery never slept alone. Even with Ser Loras dying, there were swords about her night and day.

Swords have two edges, though. The very men who guard her could be used to bring her down. The evidence would need to be so overwhelming that even Margaery's own lord father would have no choice but to consent to her execution. That would not be easy. 

-Cersei VIII, aFfC

Lord Randyll shared the platform with Lord Mooton, a pale, soft, fleshy man in a white doublet and red breeches, his ermine cloak pinned at the shoulder by a red-gold brooch in the shape of a salmon. Tarly wore mail and boiled leather, and a breastplate of grey steel. The hilt of a greatsword poked up above his left shoulder. Heartsbane, it was named, the pride of his House.

-Brienne III, aFfC

Cersei is suggesting killing Margaery her with a "cup of Heart's Bane" but settles on using Margaery's  "swords" to cast her down. Randyll Tarly owns the VS with the name of Heartsbane and Margaery is currently guarded by Lord Tarly and has promised to return her for her trial. 

Another thing two of the things named have been used to kill people as a mercy. The VS knife of the Catspaw. He failed but he kept calling it a mercy. Dany smothers Drogo with a pillow. I wonder if the cup of Heart's Bane/VS Heartsbane will be used in the guise of mercy against Margaery?

And something is interesting here, Lord Mooton is dressed like a Heart tree with a carved bleeding face and has lost all its leaves. The trunk with the bleeding face is Lord Mooton's red breeches and his white doublet is the bare branches of the trees. And even more interesting, the red-gold salmon whispers to me as being a reference to Lady Stoneheart the former Catelyn Tully, now a Heart Tree walking around hanging people. And Maidenpool screams the human sacrifice of a woman in the same manner Cat was killed at the Twins. 

[Cridefea]

23 hours ago, Seams said:

"The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." (ASoS, Jon X)

Thank you!

And that reminds me the broken longsword at LF's ancestral home you quoted in other threads.

[Curled Finger]

You know, Seams, I've been locked out of this place for 2 months.  I haven't been able to post or reply or read or have any fun at all.   I need a focused study of the swords.  How do we do this, Sister?   I am particularly interested in the gems and stones of the pommels.  We need to bone up on this stuff before we see this black armor of Euron's.   Do we still have the search for the SSMs?   

Did I miss something or did you not bring up the Hound's new old sword?