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Thoughts on Maegor I and what possibly awaits in Fire & Blood


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I posted this in another thread but since it got no response I thought about posting it as part of its own separate thread so here it is.

While I agree with the general consensus that Maegor wasn’t a good person nor a good king (though probably the one the realm needed when Aenys I died) I think Fire & Blood is going to reveal information that will make him (like the proposed Aegon IV POV) more understandable. As things stand the information contained in TWOIAF and the Sons of the Dragon reading offer interesting possibilities that I think bear mentioning and discussion however small.

1. The Sons of the Dragon reading makes note that Maegor was not fond of animals but that makes little sense in light of the fact that Maegor was, per TWOIAF, a gifted jouster and must have before bonding with Balerion traveled by horse, foot, or ship.

2. The Sons of the Dragon further makes mention that in addition to being a gifted jouster and melee participant, Maegor also slew the robber knight the Giant of the Trident and took part in a Velaryon expedition to fight pirates in the Stepstones, all of which, when coupled with his status as a prince and Visenya’s ambitions, should have made him somewhat popular and have at least a few close friends realistically speaking unless George takes out the stuff from the Sons of the Dragon reading.

3. Maegor was Hand for two years yet in that time the realm was at peace as far as we know yet there is no way that the crowned Maegor we see in TWOIAF would be capable of that, especially when one considers Aenys’s weak personality would prevent him from reigning in Maegor’s excesses.

4. In TWOIAF it is noted that Maegor’s multiple marriages compounded his problems with the Faith Militant and his other enemies yet in the same book we see that not only did Maegor only have six wives (down from the eight or nine original estimate given by GRRM) but that from 44 AC (after the fall of the Harroways) to 47 AC (the Black Brides) Maegor was married only to Tyanna. If Maegor was so desperate for children (and if his descent into madness started with the monstrosities his seed brought forth from women’s wombs) why did he not marry more women between 44 AC and 47 AC? Furthermore, how had Tyanna been "poisoning" his wives when until the Black Brides (which this implies come before Tyanna's fall) Tyanna was his only wife for three years and before that only shared him with Alys, Ceryse a non-issue by that point who could have simply died of illness but because of Maegor's reputation later (false) stories of him having her murdered emerge.

5. The high point of Maegor’s reign seems to be 44 AC, the year in which the High Septon that declared Aenys “King Abomination” died and he won the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye yet that same year Visenya dies. I really wonder if things only went downhill for Maegor from there since it is a possibility that he only started his whole sparing no one shtick after that point, including with the Harroways, whom I think Visenya would have prevented Maegor from wiping out if only for the sake of public image (she may not have cared all that much about such things but she would have had to enough if she wanted to secure and safeguard his reign).

6. We don’t know whether Tyanna “questioned” Viserys at Maegor’s behest or even with his permission (though he at the very least accepted it since he attempted to use the body to lure his mother out of hiding).

7. If Maegor really died in the aftermath of the Trial by Seven during his coma and was resurrected by Tyanna that might explain his hitherto-nonexistent excesses seeing as in the current story when someone is resurrected they don’t come back completely. Alternatively, the head wound could have just neurologically damaged him through physical trauma. Plus, it is interesting that Maegor’s first instinct before his head wound isn’t to use his dragon like later but to fight mano-a-mano.

8. Maegor was the one who started construction of the Dragonpit, the history behind the construction of which sounds like it could be intriguing.

9. There is an implication in TWOIAF that during the finishing of the Red Keep the realm was largely at peace for a time since Maegor left the running of the realm to his Hand and good-father, which leaves the door open for other, likewise small periods of relative peace during Maegor’s reign which would be interesting to find out more about.

10. We know absolutely nothing of what went on in 46 AC and most of 45 AC apart from the campaign against the Poor Fellows.

11. Maegor’s Holdfast and the secret tunnels later turned out to actually be useful (for Aegon II and Aegon III at least).

12. Maegor, per TWOIAF and the Sons of the Dragon, didn't start the Faith Militant Uprising (as some thought beforehand).

13. Maegor's status as a usurper can be disputed seeing as Aenys basically gave up his kingdom without a fight plus the only one who spoke out in Aegon's name was the Grand Maester, who may have had his own reasons plus Yandel's "by rights should have been his" when discussing Aegon vs. Maegor in my opinion is simply him touting the historically "correct" version of those events rather than what actually happened.

14. Alyssa "mocking" Maegor for his lack of a dragon during his father's reign opens up the possibility for interesting family dynamics, including possibly a build-up of two court factions like during the latter reigns of Viserys I and Aerys II.

So all in all, I think Maegor, even with the full account of his reign, will not be sympathetic to us but at least more understandable. What are your thoughts fellow board members?

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6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I posted this in another thread but since it got no response I thought about posting it as part of its own separate thread so here it is.

While I agree with the general consensus that Maegor wasn’t a good person nor a good king (though probably the one the realm needed when Aenys I died) I think Fire & Blood is going to reveal information that will make him (like the proposed Aegon IV POV) more understandable. As things stand the information contained in TWOIAF and the Sons of the Dragon reading offer interesting possibilities that I think bear mentioning and discussion however small.

1. The Sons of the Dragon reading makes note that Maegor was not fond of animals but that makes little sense in light of the fact that Maegor was, per TWOIAF, a gifted jouster and must have before bonding with Balerion traveled by horse, foot, or ship.

2. The Sons of the Dragon further makes mention that in addition to being a gifted jouster and melee participant, Maegor also slew the robber knight the Giant of the Trident and took part in a Velaryon expedition to fight pirates in the Stepstones, all of which, when coupled with his status as a prince and Visenya’s ambitions, should have made him somewhat popular and have at least a few close friends realistically speaking unless George takes out the stuff from the Sons of the Dragon reading.

3. Maegor was Hand for two years yet in that time the realm was at peace as far as we know yet there is no way that the crowned Maegor we see in TWOIAF would be capable of that, especially when one considers Aenys’s weak personality would prevent him from reigning in Maegor’s excesses.

4. In TWOIAF it is noted that Maegor’s multiple marriages compounded his problems with the Faith Militant and his other enemies yet in the same book we see that not only did Maegor only have six wives (down from the eight or nine original estimate given by GRRM) but that from 44 AC (after the fall of the Harroways) to 47 AC (the Black Brides) Maegor was married only to Tyanna. If Maegor was so desperate for children (and if his descent into madness started with the monstrosities his seed brought forth from women’s wombs) why did he not marry more women between 44 AC and 47 AC? Furthermore, how had Tyanna been "poisoning" his wives when until the Black Brides (which this implies come before Tyanna's fall) Tyanna was his only wife for three years and before that only shared him with Alys, Ceryse a non-issue by that point who could have simply died of illness but because of Maegor's reputation later (false) stories of him having her murdered emerge.

5. The high point of Maegor’s reign seems to be 44 AC, the year in which the High Septon that declared Aenys “King Abomination” died and he won the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye yet that same year Visenya dies. I really wonder if things only went downhill for Maegor from there since it is a possibility that he only started his whole sparing no one shtick after that point, including with the Harroways, whom I think Visenya would have prevented Maegor from wiping out if only for the sake of public image (she may not have cared all that much about such things but she would have had to enough if she wanted to secure and safeguard his reign).

6. We don’t know whether Tyanna “questioned” Viserys at Maegor’s behest or even with his permission (though he at the very least accepted it since he attempted to use the body to lure his mother out of hiding).

7. If Maegor really died in the aftermath of the Trial by Seven during his coma and was resurrected by Tyanna that might explain his hitherto-nonexistent excesses seeing as in the current story when someone is resurrected they don’t come back completely. Alternatively, the head wound could have just neurologically damaged him through physical trauma. Plus, it is interesting that Maegor’s first instinct before his head wound isn’t to use his dragon like later but to fight mano-a-mano.

8. Maegor was the one who started construction of the Dragonpit, the history behind the construction of which sounds like it could be intriguing.

9. There is an implication in TWOIAF that during the finishing of the Red Keep the realm was largely at peace for a time since Maegor left the running of the realm to his Hand and good-father, which leaves the door open for other, likewise small periods of relative peace during Maegor’s reign which would be interesting to find out more about.

10. We know absolutely nothing of what went on in 46 AC and most of 45 AC apart from the campaign against the Poor Fellows.

11. Maegor’s Holdfast and the secret tunnels later turned out to actually be useful (for Aegon II and Aegon III at least).

12. Maegor, per TWOIAF and the Sons of the Dragon, didn't start the Faith Militant Uprising (as some thought beforehand).

13. Maegor's status as a usurper can be disputed seeing as Aenys basically gave up his kingdom without a fight plus the only one who spoke out in Aegon's name was the Grand Maester, who may have had his own reasons plus Yandel's "by rights should have been his" when discussing Aegon vs. Maegor in my opinion is simply him touting the historically "correct" version of those events rather than what actually happened.

14. Alyssa "mocking" Maegor for his lack of a dragon during his father's reign opens up the possibility for interesting family dynamics, including possibly a build-up of two court factions like during the latter reigns of Viserys I and Aerys II.

So all in all, I think Maegor, even with the full account of his reign, will not be sympathetic to us but at least more understandable. What are your thoughts fellow board members?

These are my thoughts on the issue.

1. I don't see the issue with this, for although I am not a rider, I don't see why not being particulary friendly with horses or caring deeply for them would prevent you from getting what you want from that horse. There are peopler treating animals horrible, and have been in history, yet at the same time they've been perfectly able to keep the animals around. So I would expect that Maegor left the treatment of his horses to servants and only dealt with the horse when needed to use the horse.

And lets not forget that Balerion might not per necessity be a very nice personality, so he might not have respect someone with a bleeding heart. Or at least that's what I think.

2. I don't think that Maegor was without admirers but if you lack social skills and perhaps also have a different time with empathy then you are not going to get many friends regardless of how skilled you are at your work. Relations works that way to my knowledge.

3. Why not? Maybe there was no one to fight, maybe Maegor's coma changed him in a great way or something else? People changed acros their lives and I don't doubt that Maegor did so as well.

4. I would imagine that even Maegor realized that there are some needs for prince or princess that must be met. Like nothing having a common escort for a mother or a wife who will slit his throat in his sleep? Also Tyanna might have given him assurances that she would provide an heir to him and that she got three years before Maegor decided no little kid was coming from their unions and so moved on, while Tyanna wanted to protect her position by ensuring that no other woman could provide Maegor with an heir? Of course these are guesses.

5. Yes, in a way I think that Maegor fell ont he finishing line. Just when he had broken all opposition he was left without advice on how to continue on without the sledge, and so he kept the sledge, and turned things around on himself.

6. Given the plot with the body, if Maegor didn't tell Tyanna to interrogate Viserys, Maegor seems to have approved of it afterwards.

7. Both dead and ressurected or the brain damage theories have credits to themselves as explinations.

8. Indeed.

9. There's no need to have been a peace, only that the war wasn't so pressing that Maegor couldn't do something else for a while.

10. So I would assume more bloodshed and violence and atrocities.

11. Yes?

12. No, you are correct.

13. I fail to see why the maester's support for laws of succession above blatant usurpation should be a mark against them. Also Aenys never gave up his kingdom, he retreated and then died. Stannis, Rhaenyra and Aegon II didn't give up their kingdoms when they retreated to Dragonstone and the Blackfyres don't seem to have given up their claims when they left Westeros for Essos. Making a retreat is not the same as giving up your cause.

14. Ok

I think he's an interesting figure to be sure, but still an usurper and really unfit to lead given he seems to have been unable to use any methods othe than sledge hammer to solve problems.

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6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I posted this in another thread but since it got no response I thought about posting it as part of its own separate thread so here it is.

While I agree with the general consensus that Maegor wasn’t a good person nor a good king (though probably the one the realm needed when Aenys I died) I think Fire & Blood is going to reveal information that will make him (like the proposed Aegon IV POV) more understandable. As things stand the information contained in TWOIAF and the Sons of the Dragon reading offer interesting possibilities that I think bear mentioning and discussion however small.

1. The Sons of the Dragon reading makes note that Maegor was not fond of animals but that makes little sense in light of the fact that Maegor was, per TWOIAF, a gifted jouster and must have before bonding with Balerion traveled by horse, foot, or ship.

That is not mutually exclusive. You can be a good enough rider and still not particularly like animals. It is also not stated that Maegor hated animals in general. Just that he allegedly (Gyldayn suggests that this might just be a later slander) butchered a cat at the age of three when Visenya first put a sword in his hand and then later cruelly killed that horse who kicked him in the stable. And when the stable boy tried to intervene he slashed at his face, too.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

2. The Sons of the Dragon further makes mention that in addition to being a gifted jouster and melee participant, Maegor also slew the robber knight the Giant of the Trident and took part in a Velaryon expedition to fight pirates in the Stepstones, all of which, when coupled with his status as a prince and Visenya’s ambitions, should have made him somewhat popular and have at least a few close friends realistically speaking unless George takes out the stuff from the Sons of the Dragon reading.

It is stated Maegor couldn't inspire any true loyalty or make really good friends because of the suspicious/brooding nature he inherited from his mother. Visenya didn't have any close friends, either. Prince Maegor certainly would have had a lot of hangers-on and the like, but he never had friends and companions of the sort Robert Baratheon made at the Eyrie and elsewhere. I think we can compare Maegor to Joffrey there. A lot of people obviously sought his favor but young Joffrey doesn't seem to have had a good friend.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

3. Maegor was Hand for two years yet in that time the realm was at peace as far as we know yet there is no way that the crowned Maegor we see in TWOIAF would be capable of that, especially when one considers Aenys’s weak personality would prevent him from reigning in Maegor’s excesses.

Back then the Handship wasn't yet defined the same way it was later on. The king was the one in charge, and the Hand just one servant among many. We didn't even have a defined Small Council (that was only made later on by Jaehaerys I). The thing is also that Gyldayn doesn't mention that anything problematic happened during the ~2 years Aenys and Maegor ruled together. The rebellions had been crushed and both Visenya and Maegor seem to have been content with the arrangement. It was the birth of Princess Vaella in 39 AC - another proof of Alyssa Velaryon's continuous fertility - that drove Maegor over the edge and caused him to take another wife. That caused a major rift between Aenys I and his half-brother, culminating in Maegor's exile.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

4. In TWOIAF it is noted that Maegor’s multiple marriages compounded his problems with the Faith Militant and his other enemies yet in the same book we see that not only did Maegor only have six wives (down from the eight or nine original estimate given by GRRM) but that from 44 AC (after the fall of the Harroways) to 47 AC (the Black Brides) Maegor was married only to Tyanna. If Maegor was so desperate for children (and if his descent into madness started with the monstrosities his seed brought forth from women’s wombs) why did he not marry more women between 44 AC and 47 AC? Furthermore, how had Tyanna been "poisoning" his wives when until the Black Brides (which this implies come before Tyanna's fall) Tyanna was his only wife for three years and before that only shared him with Alys, Ceryse a non-issue by that point who could have simply died of illness but because of Maegor's reputation later (false) stories of him having her murdered emerge.

One assumes that Maegor's third marriage to Tyanna in 42 AC (after his ascension to the Iron Throne) marked the beginning of his renewed trouble with the Faith. By that point he was a polygamous king who was married to three wives at the same time, openly living together with two of them (Alys & Tyanna).

The scandal of the black brides in 47 AC seems to mark the beginning of the end of Maegor's reign. The serious Faith Militant rebellions and other uprising began in that year and continued in 48 AC.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

5. The high point of Maegor’s reign seems to be 44 AC, the year in which the High Septon that declared Aenys “King Abomination” died and he won the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye yet that same year Visenya dies. I really wonder if things only went downhill for Maegor from there since it is a possibility that he only started his whole sparing no one shtick after that point, including with the Harroways, whom I think Visenya would have prevented Maegor from wiping out if only for the sake of public image (she may not have cared all that much about such things but she would have had to enough if she wanted to secure and safeguard his reign).

We don't know whether the Harroway butchering happened before or after Visenya's death. And we also don't know how much influence the aged Visenya still had over her royal son. I'm not sure Maegor would have been open to reason after he had come to the conclusion that his wife and cuckolded him.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

6. We don’t know whether Tyanna “questioned” Viserys at Maegor’s behest or even with his permission (though he at the very least accepted it since he attempted to use the body to lure his mother out of hiding).

The idea that Tyanna did this without Maegor's permission or even on his explicit command makes no sense at all. Keep in mind that Prince Viserys was a prince of the blood, the eldest surviving son of Aenys I and a grandson of Aegon the Conqueror. Tyanna would have had neither the right nor the power to lay hands on him without the permission of the king.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

7. If Maegor really died in the aftermath of the Trial by Seven during his coma and was resurrected by Tyanna that might explain his hitherto-nonexistent excesses seeing as in the current story when someone is resurrected they don’t come back completely. Alternatively, the head wound could have just neurologically damaged him through physical trauma. Plus, it is interesting that Maegor’s first instinct before his head wound isn’t to use his dragon like later but to fight mano-a-mano.

There were excesses prior to his head trauma. The incidents with animals are cited above. 'The Sons of the Dragon' gives additional details how Maegor dealt with the rebels around Jonos the Kinslayer. When he appeared on Balerion in the Vale Jonos' allies threw him through the Moon Door and yielded the Eyrie to Maegor and the Targaryen loyalists under Lord Royce. But Maegor still insisted to hang all of them as traitors.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

8. Maegor was the one who started construction of the Dragonpit, the history behind the construction of which sounds like it could be intriguing.

Well, it is just a stable for dragons.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

9. There is an implication in TWOIAF that during the finishing of the Red Keep the realm was largely at peace for a time since Maegor left the running of the realm to his Hand and good-father, which leaves the door open for other, likewise small periods of relative peace during Maegor’s reign which would be interesting to find out more about.

I'm not sure we'll find out much more about that in 'The Sons of the Dragon'. Some details perhaps. But I agree that there was some semblance of peace after the death of the High Septon and the victory over Prince Aegon at the Gods Eye.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

10. We know absolutely nothing of what went on in 46 AC and most of 45 AC apart from the campaign against the Poor Fellows.

Considering that we don't know anything either about what transpired in 37-39 AC while Aenys and Maegor ruled together I'm not holding my breath for a lot of additional information there. We might get some more details on Alyssa Velaryon and her plans in the years after her escape.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

11. Maegor’s Holdfast and the secret tunnels later turned out to actually be useful (for Aegon II and Aegon III at least).

Yeah, but that is just an accident. Maegor most likely never wanted these people to sit the Iron Throne in the first place. He wanted his line to continue House Targaryen.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

12. Maegor, per TWOIAF and the Sons of the Dragon, didn't start the Faith Militant Uprising (as some thought beforehand).

Not sure who thought that but Aenys I's troubles with the Faith began with Maegor's marriage to Alys Harroway. Prince Aegon's marriage to his sister Rhaena complicated things even further (and Maegor's absence certainly emboldened the Faith Militant) but it was Maegor's new marriage that drove a wedge between the sons of the Conqueror.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

13. Maegor's status as a usurper can be disputed seeing as Aenys basically gave up his kingdom without a fight plus the only one who spoke out in Aegon's name was the Grand Maester, who may have had his own reasons plus Yandel's "by rights should have been his" when discussing Aegon vs. Maegor in my opinion is simply him touting the historically "correct" version of those events rather than what actually happened.

One can hold that opinion but Maegor is still partially to blame for Aenys I losing his kingdom in the first place. Not to mention that from a loyalist position Maegor and Visenya actually had no right to put forth Prince Maegor as champion or head of House Targaryen in that Trial of Seven. His five year exile was not yet over.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

14. Alyssa "mocking" Maegor for his lack of a dragon during his father's reign opens up the possibility for interesting family dynamics, including possibly a build-up of two court factions like during the latter reigns of Viserys I and Aerys II.

Granted, there were two factions at court during the reign of the Conqueror. Aegon I, Aenys, and Alyssa (and later their children, too) were on one side, and Visenya and Maegor on the other. Aenys I tried to bridge the gap when he made his half-brother his Hand.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

So all in all, I think Maegor, even with the full account of his reign, will not be sympathetic to us but at least more understandable. What are your thoughts fellow board members?

I don't think there is much more to Maegor than 'the Cruel'. He doesn't appear as a very complex character. There is no reason to believe that his character changed after the whole head trauma thing. Nor is it likely he was resurrected from death considering that no special magical blood properties are reported thereafter.

There might be some interesting personal layers in the whole Maegor-Visenya and Maegor-Tyanna dynamic, though. It might be that Visenya's presence sort of held Maegor's darkest impulses back somewhat. His breaking in the end is interesting, too. Possibly a combination of the loss of Tyanna (who might have been closest to him after his mother) as well as the realization that he had been an abomination spawned from black magic rendering him incapable of fathering normal children. The idea that Tyanna actually poisoned Alys, Jeyne, and Elinor makes little sense. Especially not Alys (who allegedly had been Tyanna's lover, too).

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Lord Varys

You make some good points but I feel the need to disagree on a few things.  

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not mutually exclusive. You can be a good enough rider and still not particularly like animals. It is also not stated that Maegor hated animals in general. Just that he allegedly (Gyldayn suggests that this might just be a later slander) butchered a cat at the age of three when Visenya first put a sword in his hand and then later cruelly killed that horse who kicked him in the stable. And when the stable boy tried to intervene he slashed at his face, too.

It is stated Maegor couldn't inspire any true loyalty or make really good friends because of the suspicious/brooding nature he inherited from his mother. Visenya didn't have any close friends, either.

Back then the Handship wasn't yet defined the same way it was later on. The king was the one in charge, and the Hand just one servant among many. We didn't even have a defined Small Council (that was only made later on by Jaehaerys I). The thing is also that Gyldayn doesn't mention that anything problematic happened during the ~2 years Aenys and Maegor ruled together. The rebellions had been crushed and both Visenya and Maegor seem to have been content with the arrangement. It was the birth of Princess Vaella in 39 AC - another proof of Alyssa Velaryon's continuous fertility - that drove Maegor over the edge and caused him to take another wife. That caused a major rift between Aenys I and his half-brother, culminating in Maegor's exile.

One assumes that Maegor's third marriage to Tyanna in 42 AC (after his ascension to the Iron Throne) marked the beginning of his renewed trouble with the Faith. By that point he was a polygamous king who was married to three wives at the same time, openly living together with two of them (Alys & Tyanna).

There were excesses prior to his head trauma. The incidents with animals are cited above. 'The Sons of the Dragon' gives additional details how Maegor dealt with the rebels around Jonos the Kinslayer. When he appeared on Balerion in the Vale Jonos' allies threw him through the Moon Door and yielded the Eyrie to Maegor and the Targaryen loyalists under Lord Royce. But Maegor still insisted to hang all of them as traitors.

Considering that we don't know anything either about what transpired in 37-39 AC while Aenys and Maegor ruled together I'm not holding my breath for a lot of additional information there. We might get some more details on Alyssa Velaryon and her plans in the years after her escape.

Not sure who thought that but Aenys I's troubles with the Faith began with Maegor's marriage to Alys Harroway. Prince Aegon's marriage to his sister Rhaena complicated things even further (and Maegor's absence certainly emboldened the Faith Militant) but it was Maegor's new marriage that drove a wedge between the sons of the Conqueror.

One can hold that opinion but Maegor is still partially to blame for Aenys I losing his kingdom in the first place. Not to mention that from a loyalist position Maegor and Visenya actually had no right to put forth Prince Maegor as champion or head of House Targaryen in that Trial of Seven. His five year exile was not yet over.

1. If it is mentioned by Gyldayn himself that it may have been slander (which therefore implies that there were people distorting the facts) I'm waiting till Fire & Blood comes out or, barring that, another reading of the Sons of the Dragon before I take that into consideration.

2. I doubt having a brooding and suspicious nature means you can't make friends or at least allies and acquittances. Just look at Stannis and the fanatical devotion he inspires. Furthermore, considering Visenya's ambitions for Maegor and the fact that he was a bloody prince born of the conqueror himself there is no way he didn't have a court following of his own that was based on only fear. In addition, when Maegor returns to Westeros with his mother and plants his banner, declaring himself a new king offering justice to his supporters and death to his enemies, people flock in great numbers. How could someone who "couldn't inspire true loyalty" accomplish such a feat or make people believe in his words? Not to mention being a great warrior and the youngest knight in history up until that point would have had an inspiration all of its own.

3. My point was exactly that we don't hear anything of note occurring (not even a Dornish War...) yet if you look at Maegor when he wears the crown how do you imagine that same man ruling as the second most powerful person in the Seven Kingdoms for two years peacefully? Something doesn't add up in my mind and I sincerely doubt Aenys had anything to do with it. Honestly, his well-meaning dithering probably did not accomplish much except to reinforce the idea that he was weak and unfit for the throne.

4. I thought Maegor married Tyanna while he was in exile?

5. I have to disagree here. Him ordering them all executed even after they surrendered was harsh but I can see the point. The Targaryen Dynasty still had shaky foundations and in the rebellions of the last year Aenys had proven to everyone that their suspicious concerning his ability to rule were right. Therefore, taking a hard stance against treason and rebellion (like Bloodraven advocated against the Blackfyres later) in Maegor's eyes could have been necessary to send a clear message to silence any remaining seditious sentiment, especially when they obviously did it to (understandably) save their asses. And if that is the only example of excess (I'm discounting the animals thing since it may not be true) then we don't really have any examples of excess prior to the head wound in his own reign, only a man with many feats of arms and service to the realm (the whole Stepstones and Giant of the Trident thing from the Sons of the Dragon) with a harsh, brooding personality like Stannis or Maekar.

6. Well, yeah, but as we discussed elsewhere there could have been a Dornish War in that little time and that would be interesting to find more or even some other crazy event cut from TWOIAF. I mean do we know how much of The Sons of the Dragon was unable to be included?

7. Sorry but I disagree. Maegor added fuel to the fire (not that I can't blame him, the man was at the height of his power and prestige prior to the beginning of his reign and was therefore taking a big risk simply because he wanted a child of his own) but Aenys was the one who lit it underneath his own feet for nothing other than the feelies. 

8. Considering that said king had retreated to an island and given up his capital without a fight I think saying he gave up his kingdom is pretty reasonable and as you yourself have pointed out in other threads Maegor returning and declaring for say Aegon 1.5 or calling for a Trial by Seven in his name probably wouldn't have saved Aegon's Conquest. Not to mention as the senior male, born of the elder sister-wife, and a great warrior, Maegor declaring himself the then-champion of House Targaryen seems reasonable.   

9. Finally, Maegor not being a complex character, well, neither is Aegon IV, or most of the other Targaryen Kings, who we don't have a lot of info on, and in the case of Aegon IV, if GRRM hadn't announced his desire to write his reign from his POV I doubt anyone would be saying the man wasn't anything more than an completely unsympathetic monster. In fact its one of my pet peeves about the TWOIAF that all the kings seem to me for the most part to be caricatures with a theme of excess (excess piety, excess cruelty, excess weakness, excess hedonism, excess warmongering, excess obsession with reading, and so on).  

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2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Lord Varys

You make some good points but I feel the need to disagree on a few things.  

1. If it is mentioned by Gyldayn himself that it may have been slander (which therefore implies that there were people distorting the facts) I'm waiting till Fire & Blood comes out or, barring that, another reading of the Sons of the Dragon before I take that into consideration.

It is just the cat incident when Maegor was three that may be just slander, according to Gyldayn. The fact that Visenya gave Maegor his first sword at the age of three seems to be confirmed. By the way, Maegor's first master-at-arms was one Gawen [?] Corbray, 'as deadly a man as could be found in the Seven Kingdoms.'

Unlike Aenys, Maegor showed no love for horses, dogs, or any animals. The incident with the palfrey kicking Maegor who then was stabbed to death by him happened when the boy was eight. And he actually slashed off half the face of stable boy who came running when the horse was screaming.

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

2. I doubt having a brooding and suspicious nature means you can't make friends or at least allies and acquittances. Just look at Stannis and the fanatical devotion he inspires. Furthermore, considering Visenya's ambitions for Maegor and the fact that he was a bloody prince born of the conqueror himself there is no way he didn't have a court following of his own that was based on only fear. In addition, when Maegor returns to Westeros with his mother and plants his banner, declaring himself a new king offering justice to his supporters and death to his enemies, people flock in great numbers. How could someone who "couldn't inspire true loyalty" accomplish such a feat or make people believe in his words? Not to mention being a great warrior and the youngest knight in history up until that point would have had an inspiration all of its own.

'Maegor had but companions throughout his life but no true friends. He was a quarrelsome boy, quick to take offense, slow to forgive, and fearsome in his wrath.'

This suggests Maegor did have hangers-on and the like as any royal prince would have but he had no close confidants whom he could trust, and neither did he have friends he would support should they be in need of his help. A very bad trait for a future king.

The people rallying to Maegor after his return to KL are Kingslanders, by the way. It is no surprise that they come considering that they are all Targaryen men, who were drawn to the city of the Conqueror after the Conquest was complete, growing wealthy and powerful there. Just because those people (then) preferred Maegor over the Faith Militant (who at that point ruled the city) doesn't mean they loved Maegor.

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

3. My point was exactly that we don't hear anything of note occurring (not even a Dornish War...) yet if you look at Maegor when he wears the crown how do you imagine that same man ruling as the second most powerful person in the Seven Kingdoms for two years peacefully? Something doesn't add up in my mind and I sincerely doubt Aenys had anything to do with it. Honestly, his well-meaning dithering probably did not accomplish much except to reinforce the idea that he was weak and unfit for the throne.

Well, unless Gyldayn is concealing something there or George going to add more information to 'The Sons of the Dragon' we won't get anything on the time of Maegor's Handship, I'm sorry. Aenys I seemed to be insecure when faces with resistance and rebellion but we don't know how things stood with him when everything was working well. Presumably he and Maegor actually got along. Keep in mind that Maegor apparently never raised his hand against his half-brother. It is Visenya who loathed Aenys, not necessarily Maegor. In fact, the one redeeming quality Prince Maegor had was that he remained loyal to his brother and king and did not even rebel when he was sent into exile.

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

4. I thought Maegor married Tyanna while he was in exile?

No, that happened after Maegor became king, presumably shortly after he had recovered. We don't know any details, though.

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

5. I have to disagree here. Him ordering them all executed even after they surrendered was harsh but I can see the point. The Targaryen Dynasty still had shaky foundations and in the rebellions of the last year Aenys had proven to everyone that their suspicious concerning his ability to rule were right. Therefore, taking a hard stance against treason and rebellion (like Bloodraven advocated against the Blackfyres later) in Maegor's eyes could have been necessary to send a clear message to silence any remaining seditious sentiment, especially when they obviously did it to (understandably) save their asses. And if that is the only example of excess (I'm discounting the animals thing since it may not be true) then we don't really have any examples of excess prior to the head wound in his own reign, only a man with many feats of arms and service to the realm (the whole Stepstones and Giant of the Trident thing from the Sons of the Dragon) with a harsh, brooding personality like Stannis or Maekar.

Maegor hanged the entire garrison of the Eyrie naked down the walls of the castle. That is just overkill, especially considering that those people were just following orders given by Jonos, they weren't the instigators of his treason.

Jonos had to die, of course, but not necessarily all his men, right?

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

6. Well, yeah, but as we discussed elsewhere there could have been a Dornish War in that little time and that would be interesting to find more or even some other crazy event cut from TWOIAF. I mean do we know how much of The Sons of the Dragon was unable to be included?

Ran/Linda did make a fine job condensing the reign of Aenys I. A lot of details are missing, of course, but the major events are all there (with the Dance and the Regency it is completely different - we got an outline version of the real story, basically, and with Regency not even the outline version).

A Dornish War could have happened in 37-39 AC, I guess. Either then or after Maegor had finished the Red Keep and dealt with the Harroways.

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

7. Sorry but I disagree. Maegor added fuel to the fire (not that I can't blame him, the man was at the height of his power and prestige prior to the beginning of his reign and was therefore taking a big risk simply because he wanted a child of his own) but Aenys was the one who lit it underneath his own feet for nothing other than the feelies.

'The Sons of the Dragon' makes it clear that the whole trouble began with Maegor. The High Septon and the Faith Militant were sharpening their knives ever since then, the Aegon-Rhaena affair was just the last drop.

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

8. Considering that said king had retreated to an island and given up his capital without a fight I think saying he gave up his kingdom is pretty reasonable and as you yourself have pointed out in other threads Maegor returning and declaring for say Aegon 1.5 or calling for a Trial by Seven in his name probably wouldn't have saved Aegon's Conquest. Not to mention as the senior male, born of the elder sister-wife, and a great warrior, Maegor declaring himself the then-champion of House Targaryen seems reasonable.

It is one thing to discuss the details of the succession and another for Prince Maegor to actually defy the will of his brother and father in regards to the succession. Maegor did not conquer Westeros in his own right, he first usurped the lordship/crown of Dragonstone (which was still Aenys' upon his death) and then used the island stronghold as power base to take the Iron Throne.

Visenya and Maegor knew that they were betraying Aenys and (both) Aegon(s). The people of Westeros may have been more or less fine with Maegor eventually taking the throne (the succession wasn't yet that fixed) but the royal family definitely knew that Aegon had been Aenys' chosen and anointed heir, not Maegor. And even if we go with Aenys I losing the entire Conquest he was still the rightful king of Visenya and Maegor, and thus they should have followed his wishes.

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

9. Finally, Maegor not being a complex character, well, neither is Aegon IV, or most of the other Targaryen Kings, who we don't have a lot of info on, and in the case of Aegon IV, if GRRM hadn't announced his desire to write his reign from his POV I doubt anyone would be saying the man wasn't anything more than an completely unsympathetic monster. In fact its one of my pet peeves about the TWOIAF that all the kings seem to me for the most part to be caricatures with a theme of excess (excess piety, excess cruelty, excess weakness, excess hedonism, excess warmongering, excess obsession with reading, and so on).  

There are more complex characters like Viserys II, Aegon III, Daeron I, Rhaenyra and Aegon II. Maegor is more like a Gregor Clegane than any other character in the series. He is sadistic and cruel and (eventually) became obsessed with power.

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Lord Varys

The quotes in your response and some of the details like Maegor hanging the entire garrison of the Eyrie naked, are they from someone who took notes from a Sons of the Dragon reading, because I didn't find them anywhere else? If so, could you link me to them?

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Those are from stuff we wrote down during the reading back in London. If you check the original thread on that stuff (now archived) I was in quite a hurry to get detailed accounts out and didn't capture everything.

I don't find Maegor completely deplorable but he clearly was a sadistic monster. The whole affair with the workers on the Red Keep shows how much fun he had terrorizing people. Throwing a feast for them and then killing all of them is just evil.

Stuff like that would have greatly contributed to convince people that he had to go. Even among those circles who weren't close to the Faith Militant. Even more so his later 'campaign' against the Poor Fellows if what Yandel tells us is true (that Maegor just butchered random smallfolk, basically).

Some of his methods in dealing with the Faith (showing strength and determination) certainly were correct and necessary. But then, after the problematic High Septon was removed a compromise could have been reached. In the end it may very well be the ominous memory of Maegor the Cruel that led to the rise of the Shepherd and to the Storming of the Dragonpit, marking the beginning of the end of the Targaryen dragons.

Another positive trait may be the fact that he never rebelled against either his father or his elder brother but his obsession with fathering an heir of his own body clearly was a bad trait.

And then, of course, treating his family as badly as he did. If he had named Prince Aegon his Heir Apparent from the start he may have been able to include Aenys' family into his new regime. And even if not then the wiser move would have been to make such attempts after the Gods Eye rather than continue antagonizing Alyssa and her children. The treatment of Prince Viserys is inexcusable both on a personal level as well as on the dynastic perspective. Maegor the Cruel did a much better job killing Targaryens than the Faith Militant or any other rebels did. If Maegor had gotten to Jaehaerys, too, House Targaryen would have died with Maegor.

What he was worth as a ruler and warrior also becomes apparent in the end when he breaks and kills himself rather than facing his enemies in battle. I mean, he still had Balerion the Black Dread, right? He could have burned quite a lot of his enemies, actually. Or made a living for himself as the Flying Terror of Westeros as Prince Aemond later did during the Dance.

It is interesting to speculate what led to all that. There might be more insight into all that considering that the reign of Aenys I contained much more vivid details in the 'Fire and Blood' version George read.

If anybody ever attends a reading where 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading is offered do everything in your power to convince George to read the section covering the reign of Maegor this time! Last time he stopped right after Aenys' funeral on Dragonstone.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If anybody ever attends a reading where 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading is offered do everything in your power to convince George to read the section covering the reign of Maegor this time! Last time he stopped right after Aenys' funeral on Dragonstone.

I will try if it is ever within my power. And thanks for your responses, Lord Varys. I always enjoy reading them.

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  • 1 month later...

I think you could be onto something. History is filled with people who have been misrepresented to make them look bad, and others have been completely erased from history in an attempt to make people forget about them, and who is to say that that didn't happen to Maegor? What if it's revealed that Maegor was actually not at all what TWOIAF is telling us (which was written by a maester)? After all, if the Maester Theory is true, it does make sense why Maegor would be different in history than he was in "real life".

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5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I think you could be onto something. History is filled with people who have been misrepresented to make them look bad, and others have been completely erased from history in an attempt to make people forget about them, and who is to say that that didn't happen to Maegor? What if it's revealed that Maegor was actually not at all what TWOIAF is telling us (which was written by a maester)? After all, if the Maester Theory is true, it does make sense why Maegor would be different in history than he was in "real life".

There might be some false history (Lord Varys mentions at least one of the details about Maegor may be, according to Gyldayn, slander, implying that there were people trying to distort the truth and make Maegor worse than he actually was, which would be quite the accomplishment) but the broad strokes are probably true.
Honestly, what I'm most interested in when it comes to Maegor right now are:

1. What was his relationship with his mother and wives like, especially Ceryse and Tyanna?

2. What was his relationship with his half-brother and father like? One of his few undeniably good qualities was that he was loyal to Aegon and Aenys but why, when his mother had little fondness for her nephew and her relationship with Aegon, her younger brother, was lukewarm at best? Furthermore, why was he so loyal to Aenys yet was willing to kill his children (though I don't blame him for Aegon, which was an honest battle out in the open)? (My original headcanon before TWOIAF came out was that Aenys got murdered by the Faith Militant and Maegor didn't take it well.)

3. What was he like before his coma? (No one takes a severe blow to the head and spends a month comatose without suffering significant neurological, and therefore, psychological, damage, on top of which, magic might have been involved, both in his conception and reawakening.)

4. What did he do as Hand for two years? Maegor the Cruel presiding over any length of peacetime doesn't make sense to me given what we know of him, even with Aenys as king.

5. What other noteworthy things did he do (if any) besides slay the Giant of the Trident and fight pirates in the Stepstones during his father's reign?

6. What was the nature of the "sporadic attempts to bring the Dornishmen into the realm" during his reign, considering that that line (which includes Aegon I and Aenys I as well) directly contradicts the Dornish section later which says that "the treaty of eternal peace proved to be less than eternal" with regards to Daeron I and "there were other Dornish Wars, to be sure, and even during times of peace, raiders out of Dorne continued to descend from the Red Mountains in search of plunder in the richer, greener lands to the north and west". Seriously, I want an answer for this!!!!!!!!

7. What was his actual campaign against the Faith Militant like? Apart from the battles at Stonebridge and the Great Fork of the Blackwater we don't know anything!

8. Who were the other participants in the Trial by Seven apart from him and Ser Damon Morrigen?

9. What happened in the last year of Maegor's reign that left him so broken that he killed himself rather than go down fighting?

10. What was the popular perception of him when he was a prince and do people distinguish that from his later reputation as a king?

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