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Bakker: Pounded In The Brain By The Great Ordeal Spoilers III


Durckad

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I do think Bakker had this sort in mind, along with the more traditional religious "Inquisition wasn't so bad" types, when he wrote the Earwa novels. (Along with the milder sort who fantasize about living under Aragorn's rule upon his Return.)

Sadly that sort of modern commentary seems to be the weakest parts of the novels - compare whale mothers (lame) + abuse of women (hackneyed) to the eroticism/terror [of religion] combo involved with Kellhus/Proyas stuff (genius).

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On 08/08/2016 at 10:09 PM, sologdin said:

dark enlightment types are fairly literate, using the term broadly.  they won't appreciate the RSB philosophy.  they will identify with the setting's gender 'reality' as well as with its authoritarian governance and theocracy. I.e., they'd want to live in this setting.

I'd never heard of MRA(beyond the medical procedure) until an iteration of this thread a wee while back and this is the first time i've heard of dark enlightment at all.

Anyone who would want to live in Earwa is worth the watching though. 

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On 09/08/2016 at 4:27 AM, Kalbear said:

And yes, while we've largely chased those folks away from this topic here, they exist as bakker fans. Not exclusive to bakker of course. 

What were their usernames?

What is the username of one that hasn't been chased away.

Since we're discussing the people who read the series i've not seen any that fit the descriptions on here or on second apocalypse, however i've just become acquainted with this "fedora" "MRA" "dark elightenment" culture so it will be easy for me to just not notice it.

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On 8/8/2016 at 7:02 AM, sologdin said:

etymology of ekstasis is 'standing out [of self],' a displacement.  am liking the thematic consistency here with other narrative details.  we return therefore to the genealogy of morals (III.xx)--

" This ancient mighty sorcerer in his struggle with displeasure, the ascetic priest--he had obviously won, his kingdom had come: one no longer protested against pain, one thirsted for pain; 'more pain! more pain!' the desire of his disciples and initiates has cried for centuries.  Every painful orgy of feeling, everything that shattered, bowled over, crushed, enraptured [!], transported [!]; the secrets of the torture chamber, the inventiveness of hell itself [!]--all were henceforth discovered, divined, and exploited, all stood in service of the sorcerer, all served henceforward to promote the victory of his ideal, the ascetic ideal."

Great stuff Solo.

Yeah, Proyas makes meaning from his suffering. Arguably he already has an addiction to monstrous acts of violence, not so much in the commission (like, arguably, Saubon) but rather the scriptural significance of said violence. We might even invoke Serwa's conception of the Real, that Proyas' solidity comes from both physical burden in war but also the weight of his emotional burden.

I'd say it's ascetic but also aesthetic in some sense? And when the significance of all this is drained, the only way back to "clarity", really a blotting of doubt that comes from religious ecstasy, is sex with the one who maybe, just maybe, is doing all this for a reason.

Admittedly this is me fumbling around a bit, trying to explain my intuition about the importance of that Kellhus-Proyas scene. My explanation makes it seem Bakker is critiquing religious sentiment as akin to rape but that's not really where I'm going, I [think] he's trying to get us to rather sympathize. As has been noted in the old Genchat religion threads, just about everyone has faith in something - most (all?) of us make a Ground of things we know are true where "know" is not based on empiricism or logical proof.

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On 8/9/2016 at 11:26 AM, Caligula_K3 said:

Found this the other day while looking for online discussions about Bakker and his depiction of women, for those of you wondering about MRA/gamergate people being fans of Bakker...

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2p3u3v/the_case_of_r_scott_bakker_or_what_happens_if_we/

THE SJWS AND FEMINISTS ARE TRYING TO CENSOR ALL ART

Ugh, that thread gives new meaning to staring into the abyss.

Anyway, pardon the tangent, continue with your philosophical discussion i understand nothing of. :P

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1 hour ago, Triskan said:

This actually raises a question that I've pondered:

Bakker obviously has a ton of the philosophical and the metaphysical and whatnot, and on this board there is a great deal of discussion about that.  But of his readership, such as it exists, I wonder how high a % find that stuff interesting versus those that are really just into the fantasy world, the Tolkien tributes and subversions, the imagery, etc...

I've given out The Prince of Nothing to several people (a few family, a number of friends). It was too dark for many of my family members, and my friends who enjoyed it found Achamian a bit too plodding, but if they got on to the rest of the books, they loved the world. The philosophy either turned them off completely and they never even think about Bakker after not finishing, or, they find it an interesting back drop to a cool world and continue on.

 

I wouldn't be surprised, that with most things, its on a scale. I've vacillated on different re-reads on actually caring about the philosophy, to just skipping around for the fun world and characters (Kellhus/Dunyain conversations are the shit).

 

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I don't even think I can use the word metaphysics correctly, apparently it does not encompass the unique characteristics of the world, according to the other forum, so : shrug: 

as for the philosophy, eh, I find it interesting to leverage whilst engaging in various world unbuilding we do here with our close readings and cracked pots.

one thing rarely mentioned re Bakker and women that I found great the first read way back when was that instead of a princess he had a prostitute as his main female, coming off all the high born ladies of asoiaf I found that refreshing at the time, the commoner provenance of akka, esme, serwe and cnaiur.

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