jurble Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 5 hours ago, Happy Ent said: Does Serwa actually attach nonzero probability mass to the idea that the Nonmen are friendly? I believe she does, given her conversations with her father. Moreover, she trusts her father's judgement and he didn't tell her to teleport to Ishterebinth and bring down the mountain. From her point of view, Kellhus is, if not divine, superhuman and infallible (recall Kayutas' shock at Kellhus telling the Ordeal to flee). His limitations or even the basis of his abilities (the probability trance) are unknown to her beyond her mother explaining the Dunyain as Achamian explained it to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 6 hours ago, Damned with the Wind said: From her point of view, Kellhus is, if not divine, superhuman and infallible (recall Kayutas' shock at Kellhus telling the Ordeal to flee). His limitations or even the basis of his abilities (the probability trance) are unknown to her beyond her mother explaining the Dunyain as Achamian explained it to her. So proof that Kellhus did not know the Nuke was at Dagliash? Sounds like it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: So proof that Kellhus did not know the Nuke was at Dagliash? Sounds like it to me. What? How is that proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapushiSun Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 18 hours ago, Happy Ent said: But why does Serwa not want to teleport all the way to the Nonmansion? From her perspective, they’ll be taken prisoner upon arrival anyway, at which moment her leet metagnostic skills will be known. Or does she fear that the Quya just blast her to ashes if she appears as initially too powerful? And why worry about Sorweel not seeming sufficiently hostile? I think Serwa and Sorweel's job is to ensure Golgotterath's opponents take back control of Isterebinth, not to destroy it. Kellhus knew that Isterebinth was ruled by Golgotterath's proxies and that opposition to those rulers existed. He knew that Serwa and Moenghus would be taken prisoner, and that only Sorweel would be free to act. By sending a believer, he'd hoped that the opposition faction (Oinaral, the Lord of Swans, etc) would be encouraged to move against Nin'ciljiras and his allies. An enemy non-believer like Zsoronga wouldn't have done what was needed. However since the Niom calls for an enemy to be sent, Sorweel had to be made to act like he hated the Anasurimbor, which is why Serwa and Moenghus spend their antagonising Sorweel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Have we a complete list of Tolkien references for the third trilogy somewhere? Here are some, all in the Sorweel arc: Emilidis is an Elven artisan in the tradition of Celebrimbor or maybe Fëanor. Ishterebinth has two giant statues, much like the Argonath. (By the way, do the statues look a bit like the monk-goat hybrid that Kellhus sometimes sees? Probably not.) The descend into the vast cavern beneath Ishterebinth cites the (mind-blowing) scene in the the Jackson movie, when Mithrandir and the Balrog of Moria plunge into a vast cavern at the foot of Dwarrodelf. (I don’t think that particular imagery is from the book.) Dead faces stare up through the Mere as in the dead marshes east of Emyn Muil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 13 hours ago, Kalbear said: What? How is that proof? Because it was something that Kellhus had not accounted for, Kayutas's shock is what I was referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt b Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 49 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: Because it was something that Kellhus had not accounted for, Kayutas's shock is what I was referring to. You're assuming that Kellhus has told Kayutas everything, which I don't think is a safe assumption to make. Kayutas is also standing on conditioned ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 9 minutes ago, matt b said: You're assuming that Kellhus has told Kayutas everything, which I don't think is a safe assumption to make. Kayutas is also standing on conditioned ground. Yea, I guess so. But, tell me this, how does Kellhus know that the Nuke is in the Well of Viri? How could of it been part of his plan? It takes takes an Ordeal just to reach Dagliash, do you think Kellhus made a trip by his self to Dagliash and found this Nuke and made it part of his plan? Its the one thing that make absolutely zero sense to me when people say Kellhus new of the Nuke and it was his plan all along. The Nuke was a surprise to Kellhus and there is more evidence for that being the case than against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt b Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 33 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: Yea, I guess so. But, tell me this, how does Kellhus know that the Nuke is in the Well of Viri? How could of it been part of his plan? It takes takes an Ordeal just to reach Dagliash, do you think Kellhus made a trip by his self to Dagliash and found this Nuke and made it part of his plan? Its the one thing that make absolutely zero sense to me when people say Kellhus new of the Nuke and it was his plan all along. The Nuke was a surprise to Kellhus and there is more evidence for that being the case than against it. Kellhus has many methods of obtaining information we know nothing about ("There is a head on a pole behind him"). He's been capturing and interrogating skin-spies for a long time, who knows what he's been able to figure out, not only based on what they said but what wasn't said. Honestly, I don't think there's enough there to judge one way or the other. Regardless, I don't really find the difference to be material enough to matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 he obviously looked into the inverse fire by means of his contrapositive fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Was Kayutas killed in the nuke? Did he have any lines/description after the explosion? It seems like for most of the Faithful that Kayutas would make a more logical successor to Kellhus than Proyas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 39 minutes ago, Maithanet said: Was Kayutas killed in the nuke? Did he have any lines/description after the explosion? It seems like for most of the Faithful that Kayutas would make a more logical successor to Kellhus than Proyas. I thought Kayutas was hanging with Proyas the whole time and sort of following his lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Yeah, they were beside each other. Though I don't know why Kellhus didn't put Kayutas in charge. Perhaps Kellhus knows ordering the Ordeal to eat each other will lead to damnation and would rather his spare his son than Proyas (or Proyas is already damned for sins committed in life). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 2 hours ago, matt b said: Kellhus has many methods of obtaining information we know nothing about ("There is a head on a pole behind him"). He's been capturing and interrogating skin-spies for a long time, who knows what he's been able to figure out, not only based on what they said but what wasn't said. Honestly, I don't think there's enough there to judge one way or the other. Regardless, I don't really find the difference to be material enough to matter. I agree and a very logical response. But, other point to the Nuke as the reason goes back to Momemn. Why then would Kellhus be prepping Proyas for the last three books to take over the Ordeal? Kelhhus was going back to Momemn Nuke or no Nuke. I sure the Nuke is of little consequence to the actions of Kellhus afterwards, his plan to go back to Momemn had already been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 On 30/08/2016 at 9:18 PM, Happy Ent said: Meanwhile: What’s everybody’s take on how much Serwa and Moënghus know will happen? It is clear to me that Kellhus and Serwa assume that the Niom is a trap. But why does Serwa not want to teleport all the way to the Nonmansion? From her perspective, they’ll be taken prisoner upon arrival anyway, at which moment her leet metagnostic skills will be known. Or does she fear that the Quya just blast her to ashes if she appears as initially too powerful? And why worry about Sorweel not seeming sufficiently hostile? Does Serwa actually attach nonzero probability mass to the idea that the Nonmen are friendly? Does Moënghus know that extreme torture awaits? (Clearly Sorweel has no idea.) I don't think Moe has any idea. Serwa is prepared for it, but holds out some belief that it might not happen, probably the human part of her not warning to be subjected to it herself and especially not Moe (since she genuinely seems to care for him), but Moe seems so committed to the whole Niom thing I don't think he has any idea. On 31/08/2016 at 8:49 AM, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: So proof that Kellhus did not know the Nuke was at Dagliash? Sounds like it to me. Kayutas was conditioned to be shocked at that moment as part of the conditioning of Proyas to become a non-believer, which was necessary for him to take leadership of the ordeal and turn them cannibal. I just don't see how the entire Proyas plotline makes any sense if AK didn't know about the nuke or something equivalent happening and leaving was always part of the plan. Its not the human side of him breaking because he cares about the empire, unless he always planned to save it because that part has always been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Speaking of Serwa caring for Moe... Was their incestuos dalliance merely to ensure that the Niom was complete? Or was it something they had engaged in before? There were lines in TGO that made it seem like it was entirely to cause Sorweel to hate instead of love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I got the impression that it was done in discreetly to ensure that sorweel hated them and this was obvious, but the actual action had been something they had done for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 You guys do know its not actually incest right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: You guys do know its not actually incest right? You don't say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Well now I'm going to gave nightmares for a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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