Jeor Mormont, Mance, GRRM: Who's lying or mistaken here and why?

[M_Tootles]

Deep into the deepest of tinfoil that's not tinfoil at all (he hoped), I came across something interesting and am curious how people have resolved this (or would, if they have not noticed).

I'm biased to believe GRRM does not make mistakes about stuff like this, so I'm looking for explanations other than "GRRM and his editors screwed up."

Jeor Mormont himself tells us he's been Lord Commander since BEFORE Ser Alliser Thorne and Jaremy Rykker took the black:

Quote

"The Watch has no shortage of stableboys," Lord Mormont grumbled. "That seems to be all they send us these days. Stableboys and sneak thieves and rapers. Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing." (GOT T III)

 

Rykker makes clear he and Alliser joined right after the sack of King's Landing in 283:

Quote

"On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion."

"Thank you," Ser Jaremy replied with a sardonic smile. (ibid)

 

But Mance indicates Lord Qorgyle is still the Watch's Lord Commander when Jon's old enough to be goofing around planning a snow attack:

Quote

"You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath." (SOS J I)

 

If Jon is a snow-mountain-building-boy (i.e. 287+) and Qorgyle is still the Lord Commander, that means Mormont is *not* the Lord Commander at the time King's Landing is sacked in 283, right?

 

And indeed the A World of Ice & Fire App, which some think is a place GRRM has secreted important clues, flat out states something I'm fairly certain is not in the text anywhere:

Quote

Five years after Robert's rise to the throne, Lord Commander Qorgyle passes away and Lord Mormont is elected in his place...

 

That puts Mormont's election to Lord Commander in 288, 5 years after Thorne and Rykker join. They aren't, in fact, two of the few knights to join since Mormont has been Lord Commander at all. They joined well before he becomes Lord Commander.

Now, here's Jorah's discussion of the events leading up to his marrying Lynesse:

Quote

"I married young, to a bride of my father's choosing, a Glover of Deepwood Motte. Ten years we were wed, or near enough as makes no matter. She was a plain-faced woman, but not unkind. I suppose I came to love her after a fashion, though our relations were dutiful rather than passionate. Three times she miscarried while trying to give me an heir. The last time she never recovered. She died not long after."

Dany put her hand on his and gave his fingers a squeeze. "I am sorry for you, truly."

Ser Jorah nodded. "By then my father had taken the black, so I was Lord of Bear Island in my own right. I had no lack of marriage offers, but before I could reach a decision Lord Balon Greyjoy rose in rebellion against the Usurper, and Ned Stark called his banners to help his friend Robert. The final battle was on Pyke. When Robert's stonethrowers opened a breach in King Balon's wall, a priest from Myr was the first man through, but I was not far behind. For that I won my knighthood. (COK Dae I)

 

Balon's rebellion happens in 289, which means Jorah becomes the Lord of Bear Island sometime before that. If we didn't have Mormont's statement about being Lord Commander (or indeed, simply in the Watch) in 283, we might assume he joined the Night's Watch not long before 288, since Jorah's "by then" seems to imply a more recent event rather than a long past event. That is, if Jorah marries in 278-80 and his father takes the black shortly thereafter (so that he's there for Allister and Rykker joining in 283), "by then" seems an unusual way to talk about that. Wouldn't you say "My father took the black a few years after I married" or something like that if that's when it happened? To be sure, it's not an out and out contradiction or anything, but if all we had was Jorah's statement, I'd tend to assume he'd taken it just a few years prior.

Regardless: Why be so imprecise? Is this the slow reveal of the fact that Mormont wasn't actually in the Night's Watch in 283? I tend to think his reason for joining probably has some significance, since as far as I know it's not even alluded to.

So is Mance lying (and the App wrong as a consequence of inferring from his statement) about coming to Winterfell with Qorgyle sometime in the mid-late 280s? Or is Mormont lying for some reason about being Lord Commander/in the Watch in 283? Or is he mistaken for some reason GRRM intended (i.e. that's important)?

Basically: does someone have a compelling narrative reason for all this to have been written exactly as it was written? (I have a couple ideas related to my tinfoil, but...)

[Julia H.]

Perhaps Ser Alliser wasn't sent to the Wall at once but was held in King's Landing for a few years for some reason. Perhaps after he agreed to take the black, someone influential with Tywin spoke up for him and he didn't go to the Wall with Rykker. However, something happened later, for example, his protector died or angered Tywin, someone noticed the "mistake", etc., and he still had to go. Or he was nevertheless sentenced to a few years in prison for some reason before being allowed to take the black - perhaps Tywin or someone else didn't appreciate his sense of humour.  Or he was wounded so gravely that he couldn't be sent along right then. Or, given Alliser's pro-Lannister (and anti-Stark) attitude, it is even possible that he and Tywin had more history between them than what Rykker tells Tyrion on his part. Perhaps Tywin (or Varys) saw the opportunity in Ser Alliser and they kept him in King's Landing on some believable pretext (such as an injury) but in reality to train him as a spy in the Night's Watch and sent him after the rest later. Now, of course, it's improbable that he was trained for five years or more, but maybe even the others weren't sent to the Wall directly because the victors had other things to do as well. Besides, the journey to the North takes some time. 

Or it's possible that Mormont, as an old man, makes a mistake. He thinks he was Lord Commander at the time when Alliser joined, but he wasn't. He was Lord Commander when some other knight joined. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Well, logically, either:

1. GRRM fucked up
2. One or more of the characters is mistaken
3. One or more of the characters is lying
4. Jon is at least five years older than we think
5. Alliser Thorne somehow escaped after the fall of King's Landing and managed to avoid taking the black until after Mormont became Lord Commander.

The last two are improbable, and the second two are probably unprovable at this stage. I lean toward the first, which I know is not what you want to hear, but hey - the man is human after all. He puts his trousers on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us.

"By then" means "by the time my wife died", i.e. almost ten years after they were married.

I can't think how any of the alternative explanations would be important. I know there's a theory that Mormont was lying about Longclaw, and that his house never had an ancestral Valyrian steel sword. Maybe there's a connection there?

@Julia H. - I do like the idea of Thorne having some Lannister connection, but I struggle to imagine Tywin caring enough about the Night's Watch to want to plant a spy there. Does Tywin even use spies himself? As far as I know, he just relies on Varys. I think he probably thinks the nitty-gritty of spycraft is beneath a great lord such as himself; he has people for that sort of thing.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

I think the easiest way out is to take Mormont's first statement with a grain of salt.  That is the only fact that doesn´t really play too well with the rest, and it is easy to make that statement when Mormont had maybe joined the Night´s Watch, but wasn´t yet the Lord Commander (though maybe already groomed for it, much like Jon).  He is probably mistaken and just gettng the times off by a few years, life in the Night´s watch is awfully repetitive and dull, probably hard to keep things straight outside of the big events. 

[CaliWolf]

38 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

 

@Julia H. - I do like the idea of Thorne having some Lannister connection, but I struggle to imagine Tywin caring enough about the Night's Watch to want to plant a spy there. Does Tywin even use spies himself? As far as I know, he just relies on Varys. I think he probably thinks the nitty-gritty of spycraft is beneath a great lord such as himself; he has people for that sort of thing.

If Tywin had Thorne in his pocket, he wouldn't have needed Janos. Remember when the NW sent word they needed more men, and Tywin sent a message back hinting that they would only send men if his good friend Janos Slynt became LC. If Thorne had allegiance to the Lannisters they certainly would have backed him. 

[Julia H.]

37 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Well, logically, either:

1. GRRM fucked up
2. One or more of the characters is mistaken
3. One or more of the characters is lying
4. Jon is at least five years older than we think
5. Alliser Thorne somehow escaped after the fall of King's Landing and managed to avoid taking the black until after Mormont became Lord Commander.

The last two are improbable, and the second two are probably unprovable at this stage. I lean toward the first, which I know is not what you want to hear, but hey - the man is human after all. He puts his trousers on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us.

"By then" means "by the time my wife died", i.e. almost ten years after they were married.

I can't think how any of the alternative explanations would be important. I know there's a theory that Mormont was lying about Longclaw, and that his house never had an ancestral Valyrian steel sword. Maybe there's a connection there?

@Julia H. - I do like the idea of Thorne having some Lannister connection, but I struggle to imagine Tywin caring enough about the Night's Watch to want to plant a spy there. Does Tywin even use spies himself? As far as I know, he just relies on Varys. I think he probably thinks the nitty-gritty of spycraft is beneath a great lord such as himself; he has people for that sort of thing.

Well, I don't think Tywin necessarily and voluntarily shares everything with Varys, so possibly, and he may have wanted a spy everywhere right after the rebellion, with Targaryen loyalists fleeing all over the planet.  

However, I agree that those scenarios are somewhat convoluted, except the one that Mormont was mistaken, and I don't see any plot reasons for him to make that mistake. Still, it's fun to suppose that GRRM does not make mistakes - even though we know that he does - and to play with ideas that might explain things like this in-world. Incidentally, I do think there is something strange about Thorne being so pro-Lannister (given his vindictive nature) and so anti-Stark, when it was apparently Tywin who sent him to the Wall. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

...I do think there is something strange about Thorne being so pro-Lannister (given his vindictive nature) and so anti-Stark, when it was apparently Tywin who sent him to the Wall. 

I don't think he's actually pro-Lannister or anti-Stark: I think he just hates Jon Snow and likes Janos Slynt.

[Julia H.]

24 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I don't think he's actually pro-Lannister or anti-Stark: I think he just hates Jon Snow and likes Janos Slynt.

I don't know. He hates Jon Snow before having any real reason. He's a master-at-arms teaching peasant boys to use swords. He should be happy to finally have a pupil who is more skillful than the others and not a criminal, but he only insults that pupil. In ASoS, Thorne also accuses Benjen Stark (who is quite respected by the other men of the Night's Watch) of treason and expresses hostility against all Starks in general:

“He murdered Qhorin just as his fellow turncloaks did Lord Mormont. It would not surprise me to learn that it was all part of the same fell plot. Benjen Stark may well have a hand in all this as well. For all we know, he is sitting in Mance Rayder’s tent even now. You know these Starks, my lord.”

On the other hand, Slynt is not particularly likable and he is far less intelligent than Thorne. Why would Thorne (a knight) want to be bossed around by a stupid, upstart brute? Slynt has Tywin's support. Slynt helped the Lannisters to get Ned Stark killed. I think their friendship is based on such things rather than on Slynt's amiable personality.

It would be in character with Thorne if he had been a sort of Lannister protégé among the fresh convicts in the Watch right after the rebellion, whose job was to spy on all those armed and out-of-sight Targaryen-supporters on the Wall, lest they should plot something. Since there was no plotting, Thorne could be forgotten in time, but he might hope to get back into Tywin's favour through Slynt. I'm not saying that is how it actually happened, only that it wouldn't be out of character with either Thorne or Tywin. Thorne definitely has an anti-Stark agenda though, which he focuses on Jon, as he can't really touch the other Starks. He is very happy when Ned is imprisoned, and it may be for a reason greater than the fact that it hurts Jon. I suspect that something happened in the past that makes Thorne hate the Starks, and we may even find out what it was.    

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

It's either the author messing up, or a subtle (mighty subtle) example of the Old Bear forgetting and misremembering this or that.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I don't think he's actually pro-Lannister or anti-Stark: I think he just hates Jon Snow and likes Janos Slynt.

This.  I think its obvious that Thorne, being a loyalist, would not like either Starks or Lannisters.  In this sense he seems to be living in the past.  Plus he seems to have the general disdain for bastards that so many nobles possess. 

50 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

I don't know. He hates Jon Snow before having any real reason. He's a master-at-arms teaching peasant boys to use swords. He should be happy to finally have a pupil who is more skillful than the others and not a criminal, but he only insults that pupil. In ASoS, Thorne also accuses Benjen Stark (who is quite respected by the other men of the Night's Watch) of treason and expresses hostility against all Starks in general:

“He murdered Qhorin just as his fellow turncloaks did Lord Mormont. It would not surprise me to learn that it was all part of the same fell plot. Benjen Stark may well have a hand in all this as well. For all we know, he is sitting in Mance Rayder’s tent even now. You know these Starks, my lord.”

On the other hand, Slynt is not particularly likable and he is far less intelligent than Thorne. Why would Thorne (a knight) want to be bossed around by a stupid, upstart brute? Slynt has Tywin's support. Slynt helped the Lannisters to get Ned Stark killed. I think their friendship is based on such things rather than on Slynt's amiable personality.

It would be in character with Thorne if he had been a sort of Lannister protégé among the fresh convicts in the Watch right after the rebellion, whose job was to spy on all those armed and out-of-sight Targaryen-supporters on the Wall, lest they should plot something. Since there was no plotting, Thorne could be forgotten in time, but he might hope to get back into Tywin's favour through Slynt. I'm not saying that is how it actually happened, only that it wouldn't be out of character with either Thorne or Tywin. Thorne definitely has an anti-Stark agenda though, which he focuses on Jon, as he can't really touch the other Starks. He is very happy when Ned is imprisoned, and it may be for a reason greater than the fact that it hurts Jon. I suspect that something happened in the past that makes Thorne hate the Starks, and we may even find out what it was.    

I think, from Thorne´s perspective, when the realm is at peace and the wall is normal, he still views Westeros the way it was when he was sent to the Wall.  And that makes him as Anti-Lannister as he is Anti-Stark, and that leads him to be against Jon from the get-go, but as time passes, his concern shifts more to events at the wall that have him worried (Jon´s consorting with the Wildlings, killing Qhorin, eventually bringing the Wildlings over to the other side of the wall) this makes him see a clear and present danger in Jon, one he is willing to forget old hatreds to work to stop.

Slynt is a means to an end for Alliser, he doesn´t like him especially, (other than being the one of those responsible for bringing down a personal enemy of his in Ned Stark) but he sees that he can help him achieve what he wants, and that fresh blood has a better chance of being LC than himself and putting a stop to Jon´s 'nonsense.' and the threat he represents.

[mormont]

5 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

I'm biased to believe GRRM does not make mistakes about stuff like this

The problem is, there are numerous examples of him doing exactly that.

[M_Tootles]

Just now, mormont said:

The problem is, there are numerous examples of him doing exactly that.

IMO he's cleaned up the biggest one he's semi-copped to, which is Renly's eyes, with the Tourmaline Emperor. He actually made it a clue. But that's just me. So you think this is a mistake. Pretty explicit, spelled out mistake if it is.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

5 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

Deep into the deepest of tinfoil that's not tinfoil at all (he hoped), I came across something interesting and am curious how people have resolved this (or would, if they have not noticed).

I'm biased to believe GRRM does not make mistakes about stuff like this, so I'm looking for explanations other than "GRRM and his editors screwed up."

Jeor Mormont himself tells us he's been Lord Commander since BEFORE Ser Alliser Thorne and Jaremy Rykker took the black:

 

Rykker makes clear he and Alliser joined right after the sack of King's Landing in 283:

 

But Mance indicates Lord Qorgyle is still the Watch's Lord Commander when Jon's old enough to be goofing around planning a snow attack:

 

If Jon is a snow-mountain-building-boy (i.e. 287+) and Qorgyle is still the Lord Commander, that means Mormont is *not* the Lord Commander at the time King's Landing is sacked in 283, right?

 

And indeed the A World of Ice & Fire App, which some think is a place GRRM has secreted important clues, flat out states something I'm fairly certain is not in the text anywhere:

 

That puts Mormont's election to Lord Commander in 288, 5 years after Thorne and Rykker join. They aren't, in fact, two of the few knights to join since Mormont has been Lord Commander at all. They joined well before he becomes Lord Commander.

Now, here's Jorah's discussion of the events leading up to his marrying Lynesse:

 

Balon's rebellion happens in 289, which means Jorah becomes the Lord of Bear Island sometime before that. If we didn't have Mormont's statement about being Lord Commander (or indeed, simply in the Watch) in 283, we might assume he joined the Night's Watch not long before 288, since Jorah's "by then" seems to imply a more recent event rather than a long past event. That is, if Jorah marries in 278-80 and his father takes the black shortly thereafter (so that he's there for Allister and Rykker joining in 283), "by then" seems an unusual way to talk about that. Wouldn't you say "My father took the black a few years after I married" or something like that if that's when it happened? To be sure, it's not an out and out contradiction or anything, but if all we had was Jorah's statement, I'd tend to assume he'd taken it just a few years prior.

Regardless: Why be so imprecise? Is this the slow reveal of the fact that Mormont wasn't actually in the Night's Watch in 283? I tend to think his reason for joining probably has some significance, since as far as I know it's not even alluded to.

So is Mance lying (and the App wrong as a consequence of inferring from his statement) about coming to Winterfell with Qorgyle sometime in the mid-late 280s? Or is Mormont lying for some reason about being Lord Commander/in the Watch in 283? Or is he mistaken for some reason GRRM intended (i.e. that's important)?

Basically: does someone have a compelling narrative reason for all this to have been written exactly as it was written? (I have a couple ideas related to my tinfoil, but...)

I think that Jeor is simply mistaken. He's been at the Wall a long time, after all, and might simply have misremembered at the time that Alliser joined before he was elected LC. The important thing to take away from it, I think, is that Jeor was already in the NW when Alliser took the black.

It wouldn't be the only time Jeor misremembers something. He also stated that King Aerys I was married to his sister, which was not the case.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Just now, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

It wouldn't be the only time Jeor misremembers something. He also stated that King Aerys I was married to his sister, which was not the case.

Wait, what?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Wait, what?

From ACOK, Jon I

Mormont continued. “Aemon was at his books when the eldest of his uncles, the heir apparent, was slain in a tourney mishap. He left two sons, but they followed him to the grave not long after, during the Great Spring Sickness. King Daeron was also taken, so the crown passed to Daeron’s second son, Aerys.”
“The Mad King?” Jon was confused. Aerys had been king before Robert, that wasn’t so long ago.
“No, this was Aerys the First. The one Robert deposed was the second of that name.”
“How long ago was this?”
“Eighty years or close enough,” the Old Bear said, “and no, I still hadn’t been born, though Aemon had forged half a dozen links of his maester’s chain by then. Aerys wed his own sister, as the Targaryens were wont to do, and reigned for ten or twelve years. Aemon took his vows and left the Citadel to serve at some lordling’s court... until his royal uncle died without issue.

Aerys I was married to Aelinor Penrose, a cousin. Not his sister.

Take note that I'm talking about Aerys I, not Aerys II. Aerys II was married to Rhaella, who indeed was his sister.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Oh shit, I thought you meant Aerys married Mormont's sister

[M_Tootles]

8 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I think that Jeor is simply mistaken.

This isn't a real life crime scene. Please explain the dramatic sense of that in an intentional, authorial, dramatic narrative. That's not how dramatic fiction is written.

[Julia H.]

1 minute ago, Khal BlackfyreO said:

This.  I think its obvious that Thorne, being a loyalist, would not like either Starks or Lannisters.  In this sense he seems to be living in the past.  Plus he seems to have the general disdain for bastards that so many nobles possess. 

I think, from Thorne´s perspective, when the realm is at peace and the wall is normal, he still views Westeros the way it was when he was sent to the Wall.  And that makes him as Anti-Lannister as he is Anti-Stark, and that leads him to be against Jon from the get-go, but as time passes, his concern shifts more to events at the wall that have him worried (Jon´s consorting with the Wildlings, killing Qhorin, eventually bringing the Wildlings over to the other side of the wall) this makes him see a clear and present danger in Jon, one he is willing to forget old hatreds to work to stop.

Slynt is a means to an end for Alliser, he doesn´t like him especially, (other than being the one of those responsible for bringing down a personal enemy of his in Ned Stark) but he sees that he can help him achieve what he wants, and that fresh blood has a better chance of being LC than himself and putting a stop to Jon´s 'nonsense.' and the threat he represents.

Book Alliser doesn't see Jon bring the wildlings over, he doesn't even see Stannis do that before he wants to have Jon hanged. As a soldier, he must have heard of spies, and Jon's return from the wildlings with vital intelligence that helps the Watch prepare for a very dangerous attack in itself should make it clear whose side Jon is on - as many others in Castle Black indeed understand. Thorne doesn't give a damn what happens to the Watch, all he sees is his own agenda. Jon held Castle Black against the wildlings but Alliser and Slynt's main concern is how to get him killed as soon as possible, while Mance is still sitting with his host just outside the gate and the fight is far from being over. That clearly shows what their priorities are.

However, it is possible that Thorne only sides with the Lannisters because he doesn't want to be on the losing side once more. It is still curious that he can get over (even if for practical reasons) his hatred and vindictive feelings towards the Lannisters when it was Tywin who gave him and Rykker that particular choice, but he can't stop hating the Starks. What did they do to him? (It is true that the Rebellion was started by the Baratheons and the Starks, and the Lannisters joined only later, but King's Landing was taken by Tywin, and that was where Thorne fought and was captured.)

[M_Tootles]

3 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Aerys I was married to Aelinor Penrose, a cousin. Not his sister.

Wasn't this changed? He fucked up the Penrose shit and had to re-work it. That's a known error, isn't it?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Oh shit, I thought you meant Aerys married Mormont's sister

 

3 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

This isn't a real life crime scene. Please explain the dramatic sense of that in an intentional, authorial, dramatic narrative. That's not how dramatic fiction is written.

People in real life make mistakes. So do the characters in GRRM's books, sometimes. It makes them more realistic.

1 minute ago, M_Tootles said:

Wasn't this changed? He fucked up the Penrose shit and had to re-work it. That's a known error, isn't it?

No. It has been confirmed to not  have been an error. She was a Penrose, and Aerys's cousin. The only thing we don't know, is how she is related to Aerys, or the other Penroses. The only thing about that that we do know is that Aelinor did not descent from Princess Elaena, whose second husband was also a Penrose.