The King of Winter's Crown

[Dorian Martell]

On 8/4/2016 at 9:52 AM, Lord Vance II said:

"The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold." - Catelyn I, ACoK

This is by far the best description of the crown Robb bore as King in the North. Two main questions I have. 

1. Why 9 Longswords? What's the significant of the nine? Does it represent 9 kings who were subdued? By my count I can think of 4 we know the Starks downed: The Red King (Bolton), Barrow King (Dustin), The Marsh King (Reed, I guess) and the Warg King, 5 if you count the Night King. There were many others defeated, but if we count them as Kings, it would add up to much more than 9. If it's an arbitrary number, why specify at all?

2. Could the original crown still exist somewhere? Aegon respected the Northmen enough that none of their swords were added to the Iron Throne (I suppose because they surrendered with dignity), could he have stashed the original Crown of Winter somewhere? Any chance it could be found? Would there be any significance to the discovery of the original?

And a smaller question...what does "open circlet" mean? Just that its not a complete ring and open in the back?

1: 9 was probably all they could fit on the crown. Have you tried to make a very small wrought Iron sword? It isn't easy
2: Argon either hid them on a place like dragonstone or mnore likely he melted them down into something else 

[The Fattest Leech]

10 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

1: 9 was probably all they could fit on the crown. Have you tried to make a very small wrought Iron sword? It isn't easy
2: Argon either hid them on a place like dragonstone or mnore likely he melted them down into something else 

The crown swords were melted down into teeny tiny throne-shaped ashtray.

 

(soory. couldn't help myself)

[Dorian Martell]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The crown swords were melted down into teeny tiny throne-shaped ashtray.

 

(soory. couldn't help myself)

prolly 

 

[OuttaOldtown]

While looking for the significance of nine to the First Men I came across this:

The weirwoods rose in a circle around the edges of the clearing. There were nine, all roughly of the same age and size. Each one had a face carved into it, and no two faces were alike. Some were smiling, some were screaming, some were shouting at him. In the deepening glow their eyes looked black, but in daylight they would be blood-red, Jon knew. Eyes like Ghost's.

[NorthernXY]

15 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

1: 9 was probably all they could fit on the crown. Have you tried to make a very small wrought Iron sword? It isn't easy
2: Argon either hid them on a place like dragonstone or mnore likely he melted them down into something else 

I'm hoping you just didn't see my post because it was at the bottom of the previous page.  I answered why there is nine swords, just like Storm's End was built seven times.

There may be seven kingdoms, but there are nine realms.  North, Reach, Iron Islands, Dorne, Stormlands, Westernlands, Vale, Riverlands (not a kingdom), and the Crownlands (not a kingdom).  There are seven wonders of the natural world, and nine wonders made by man.

[Dorian Martell]

4 minutes ago, NorthernXY said:

I'm hoping you just didn't see my post because it was at the bottom of the previous page.  I answered why there is nine swords, just like Storm's End was built seven times.

I did not see your post earlier but now I will say that since I have not read anthing in the books about the number 9 being holy/special in the north I have to say my answer is at least if not more reasonable than yours 

[NorthernXY]

I won't post the face palm meme, too lazy, but really?  Nine swords is all they could fit your excuse for the number nine being plastered everywhere like the number seven, nine being a pure coincidence GRRM has unconsciously put in.  Nine was a holy number in old Norse, a religion mostly forgotten, just like the Old Gods.  Nine was used in sacrifice in Old Norse, every nine years they would hold a Yule festival and sacrifice nine of many things, including nine men.  Typically these would be done in groves, like that OO described in the nine weirwoods.  As sacrifice was done away with, so would the importance of nine.  Most likely any story with nine is as hokum as southern stories that have the number seven.  You think nine iron swords are purely because of the quality of blacksmith who made it could only manage nine?  What if there was a better blacksmith, maybe 30 tiny swords or 3 for a bad smith?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Are there any other indications that GRRM has researched old Norse religious customs?

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Are there any other indications that GRRM has researched old Norse religious customs?

Yes. The ironmen have a legend of a demon tree who fed on human flesh called Ygg (basically a weirwood). This sounds like a direct reference to Yggdrasil

Yggdrasil is related to a trio of Norn that represent past, present and fate. The name for the Norn that represents fate is Uror; this translate to the anglo-saxon wyrd. Wyrd evolved into weird. So a weirwood is a tree of destiny?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

Yes. The ironmen have a legend of a demon tree who fed on human flesh called Ygg (basically a weirwood). This sounds like a direct reference to Yggdrasil

Yggdrasil is related to a trio of Norn that represent past, present and fate. The name for the Norn that represents fate is Uror; this translate to the anglo-saxon wyrd. Wyrd evolved into weird. So a weirwood is a tree of destiny?

Interesting. Not sure about that second one though, GRRM has said many times he ain't a linguist.

[NorthernXY]

18 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Are there any other indications that GRRM has researched old Norse religious customs?

9 realms in Westeros - 9 worlds in Old Norse

Worship weirtrees that connect people/minds - Yggdrasil connect the 9 worlds

Horn of Joramun blown to break the Wall - Jormungundr is a giant monster (hence why people think there may be an ice dragon in the wall

Wargs are people with a magical connection to wolves - Wargs are usually magical wolves

Bran, a warg, was crippled/"chained" by Jamie who later had his sword arm cut off - Tyr had his sword hand bitten off while he chained a warg

Jamie's brother's name is "Tyr"ion, cousin "Tyr"ek, father "Ty"win, grandfather "Ty"tos, and uncle "Ty"get".  Little on the nose if he had a "Ty(r)" in his name.

Others and Valyria - Jotnar/Frost Giants and Fire Jotnar/Fire Giants

[NorthernXY]

12 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Interesting. Not sure about that second one though, GRRM has said many times he ain't a linguist.

Weirwood is named after Bob Weir, GRRM is a Grateful Dead fan.

[The Fattest Leech]

10 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Interesting. Not sure about that second one though, GRRM has said many times he ain't a linguist.

I think it is more that GRRM said he isn't a linguist because he did not create an entire new language, he was referring to Dothraki at the time, where someone like Tolkien is.
GRRM knows enough about history and mythology to be able to make up shit from the basics of what he knows. Like Val and Dalla from the Vala.

[Tucu]

16 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Interesting. Not sure about that second one though, GRRM has said many times he ain't a linguist.

He doesn't need to be a linguist to make this connection. Reading Macbeth (the 3 Fates are refered to as Weird Sisters) and an introduction to norse mythology is enough. Or maybe reading some of Terri Pratchett's Discworld books.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

i stand corrected

[Pain killer Jane]

19 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

Hooray for me!  First you have to ask yourselves why you have no problem with the number seven in the books.  Then transfer that to the Nordic religion, which the North plays off of and you understand why the number nine is holy to the North.

Google "Nordic Religion 9" and read about how nine is to the Nordic religion as seven is to Christianity/Judaism.

9 is extremely important number and you are right in relation to its attachment to the North. And you are right about seven being attached to the south. In terms of the religion, as we know George is illustrating the evolution of religion and the dynamic nature of human worship and the magical thinking ascribed to numbers. There are also the numbers 3 and 14 (The Last Hero) that are significant as well. Its all related to that Pi and Phi stuff.

 

On 8/4/2016 at 9:52 AM, Lord Vance II said:

1. Why 9 Longswords? What's the significant of the nine? Does it represent 9 kings who were subdued? By my count I can think of 4 we know the Starks downed: The Red King (Bolton), Barrow King (Dustin), The Marsh King (Reed, I guess) and the Warg King, 5 if you count the Night King. There were many others defeated, but if we count them as Kings, it would add up to much more than 9. If it's an arbitrary number, why specify at all?

I always understood it to allude to the 9 realms, Dorne, Stormlands, Reach, Crownlands, Riverlands, Westerlands, Vale, the North and Iron Islands.  Which connected to nine Weirwood Trees on the wall and norse mythology is alluding to the nine realms along Yggdrasil. 

On 8/4/2016 at 9:52 AM, Lord Vance II said:

2. Could the original crown still exist somewhere? Aegon respected the Northmen enough that none of their swords were added to the Iron Throne (I suppose because they surrendered with dignity), could he have stashed the original Crown of Winter somewhere? Any chance it could be found? Would there be any significance to the discovery of the original?

I figure it was part of the royal jewels like the Star of India was a symbol of England's colonization and annexation of India. I do however have an idea of where it might be. During the Dance of the Dragons, Tyland Lannister was entrusted with the Royal Treasury (which the Crown would have been a part of) and was told to hide it. The treasury was split between three places The Iron Bank, Oldtown and Casterly Rock. 

Personally for me, the Lannisters would have used the original crown of winter against Robb if they had it. So I don't think its them. 

Oldtown could perhaps have it especially if the Royal Jewels were entrusted to the Citadel. (Maybe Sam will find it and give it to his friend especially if Robb indeed named Jon his successor.) And the if the description on the crown has the old tongue's rune etched on it then the grey rats Measter's would consider it a valuable artifact and would deem to keep it as a reference piece. Plus I think the Hightowers wouldn't be so honest in returning the Crown Jewels to Aegon III or even the regents. Things get lost especially if Tyland Lannister didn't have accurate record keeping in the haste after Viserys I's death and the start of the Dance.  

The most logical place for the Royal Jewels would be the Iron Bank. However I do not think they are there. Daeron's war in Dorne was in order to recover from the Dance, the Regency (a slight reprieve given by the Rogare Bank) and his father's reign. Therefore I do not think a Bank would return a piece of collateral to a person in debt to them.

For me I am going to think that Oldtown/Citadel has the crown. The Sam connection, the Starry Sept, Aegon III's personality and Meakar I Targaryen's crown which is almost certainly a reference to the crown. 

 

[Pain killer Jane]

56 minutes ago, NorthernXY said:

Weirwood is named after Bob Weir, GRRM is a Grateful Dead fan

Considering that last name has two possible origins which was that it was introduced by Norse people and meant fishing Station (Fisher Kings anyone) or a Celtic word that meant water. I think GRRM meant all of these to be origins remember his walking the pattern/vortex thing.

43 minutes ago, Tucu said:

He doesn't need to be a linguist to make this connection. Reading Macbeth (the 3 Fates are refered to as Weird Sisters) and an introduction to norse mythology is enough. Or maybe reading some of Terri Pratchett's Discworld books.

Not to mention the three fates of Greek Mythology. 

I love that you mentioned Terri besides George he is hands down my favorite writer. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

There were 9 kings or at least houses which used to be royalty in the North. House Slate, House Locke, House Ryders, House Bolton, House Glover, House Dustin, Warg King, Night King and House Fisher of the Stony Shore. I beliieve that the original crown is in Lyanna's tomb as the crown or the Northern Queen.

[Dorian Martell]

1 hour ago, NorthernXY said:

I won't post the face palm meme, too lazy, but really?  Nine swords is all they could fit your excuse for the number nine being plastered everywhere like the number seven, nine being a pure coincidence GRRM has unconsciously put in.  Nine was a holy number in old Norse, a religion mostly forgotten, just like the Old Gods.  Nine was used in sacrifice in Old Norse, every nine years they would hold a Yule festival and sacrifice nine of many things, including nine men.  Typically these would be done in groves, like that OO described in the nine weirwoods.  As sacrifice was done away with, so would the importance of nine.  Most likely any story with nine is as hokum as southern stories that have the number seven.  You think nine iron swords are purely because of the quality of blacksmith who made it could only manage nine?  What if there was a better blacksmith, maybe 30 tiny swords or 3 for a bad smith?

You being too lazy to facepalm is your own problem.  I do not see the number 9 being plastered everywhere. I see 7 everywhere, and I see 9 a few places. You are putting a lot of 9s in where there are none. GRRM is influenced by a lot of things. The north does not worship the norse gods. They worship the old gods and the SEVEN.  It seems you are seeing something that isn't there. Also, have you ever forged iron? Have you ever cast bronze? Unless you have, don't talk about better blacksmiths and what they could produce

1 hour ago, NorthernXY said:

9 realms in Westeros - 9 worlds in Old Norse

Worship weirtrees that connect people/minds - Yggdrasil connect the 9 worlds

Horn of Joramun blown to break the Wall - Jormungundr is a giant monster (hence why people think there may be an ice dragon in the wall

Wargs are people with a magical connection to wolves - Wargs are usually magical wolves

Bran, a warg, was crippled/"chained" by Jamie who later had his sword arm cut off - Tyr had his sword hand bitten off while he chained a warg

Jamie's brother's name is "Tyr"ion, cousin "Tyr"ek, father "Ty"win, grandfather "Ty"tos, and uncle "Ty"get".  Little on the nose if he had a "Ty(r)" in his name.

Others and Valyria - Jotnar/Frost Giants and Fire Jotnar/Fire Giants

So you found one 9 reference. Way to plaster. Let me help you. There was the band of 9 aka the 9 penny kings. Your turn. More nines please 

[OuttaOldtown]

1 hour ago, NorthernXY said:

Weirwood is named after Bob Weir, GRRM is a Grateful Dead fan.

AKA - The Other One