Khal BlackfyreO

Why would Cersei off Pycelle?

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This just struck me not too long ago as strange, isn´t Pycelle a Lannister lap dog essentially?  Isnt she just about one of the few Lannisters left?  Or could this be Qyburn´s move in solitary, but in tandem with her own at the Sept?

 

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Pycelle was still on the small council which had turned on Cersei recently was likely a lot of it.  Pycelle seemed to be sucking up to Kevan far more of late.  He was also often that "Well Actually" guy who when Cersei crowned herself might have objected with some minutiae that could cost her the crown or at least get folks disgruntled if she had any right to the crown.

It did seem a bit of a reach, but I found it plausible she'd want the bumbling old guy gone.  Plus it of course clears the path for Qyburn entirely...

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It´s useful to stop thinking of things in terms of "Lannisters", this is a reflection that the story makes in fact. While you generalize things you´ll most likely be wrong. Pycelle was Tywin Lannister´s lapdog, and above anything a personification of the status quo. He´d never be ok with Queen Cersei for her lack of legitimacy, and he most certainly would quickly suspect of something awry in case he was allowed to be at the Sept when Cersei didn´t show up.

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I don't think Cersei ever liked Pycelle that much. Even though he was the Lannister's lapdog she just sort of tolerated him since he was useful to her. I think she has always been looking for an excuse to kill/depose of him. Him siding with Kevan over her was when she finally decided to get rid of him completely.

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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9 hours ago, Khal BlackfyreO said:

This just struck me not too long ago as strange, isn´t Pycelle a Lannister lap dog essentially?  Isnt she just about one of the few Lannisters left?  Or could this be Qyburn´s move in solitary, but in tandem with her own at the Sept?

 

It might be worth re-watching a few episodes.  Take note of who is with King Tommen when Cersei is trying to bend him to her will.  Tommen is listening to Pycelle, and Cersei wants control of Tommen back.  Therefore Pycelle must die.  The rest of Cersei's plan was to burn the High Septon and his minions, but Tommen was depressed and jumped out a window after Pycelle had been killed.  Cersei never planned to take the crown, that was an afterthought when Tommen committed suicide. 

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1 hour ago, MtnLion said:

 Cersei never planned to take the crown, that was an afterthought when Tommen committed suicide. 

Have to disagree with you on this. She resigned herself to the fact that Tommen was going to die because of the prophecy. She already had her crown and gown being made before he died. She knew exactly what would happen, just not the how of it.

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23 hours ago, Khal BlackfyreO said:

This just struck me not too long ago as strange, isn´t Pycelle a Lannister lap dog essentially?  Isnt she just about one of the few Lannisters left?  Or could this be Qyburn´s move in solitary, but in tandem with her own at the Sept?

 

Over the last month or so, maybe 6 weeks, I have been doing a massive re-watch (starting with Episode 101, I am now up to Episode 509), and I can tell you this:  I wasn't surprised when Pycelle died.

Some reasons have been mentioned above, but I'll add my two cents to some of that.

Pycelle was incompetent.  He bumbled and got caught when Tyrion discovered Pycelle was a spy for Cersei (this was Season 2, when Tyrion told Pycelle, Baelish and Varys three different stories about his plans for Myrcella, and Tyrion knew who the spy was when Cersei  confronted Tyrion with the information Tyrion gave Pycelle).  Pycelle was also mostly incompetent as a Grand Maester, and failed to satisfy Cersei multiple times, most notably after Gregor's fight with Oberyn (they were in the room together, Pycelle was basically saying Gregor was as good as dead and nothing could be done, then Qyburn "saved" Gregor).  Indeed, Pycelle was so incompetent that Cersei kicked him out of his own lab and gave it to Qyburn,and Pycelle openly and repeated objected to both the presence of Qyburn and Qyburn's methods (since Qyburn had been thrown out of the Citadel).

Check out the exchange between Cersei and Pycelle at Joffrey's wedding.  Cersei has absolute, utter contempt for him. She catches him touching some girl, basically tells him to get his hands off the girl, then orders hmi to go to the kitchens and order them to cancel Margaery's command that the leftovers from the wedding be given to the poor, and instead to give it to the dogs.  Pycelle objects, basically argues with her (not a smart move for Pycelle), says something like the queen (Margaery) ordered otherwise, and Cersei is QUITE upset, speaks to him very harshly and orders him to do what she says.

Bottom line:  Pycelle was incompetent, did not fully recognize Cersei's authority, and I think Cersei regarded him as an old pervert on top of all that.  It's likely Pycelle knew many secrets of the Lannisters in general (and possibly of Cersei in particular INCLUDING, I believe, the medication or whatever he was giving Cersei so she would not get pregnant and/or stay pregnant), so once their relationship got this bad, I was really not surprised that Cersei had him permanently silenced (I doubt VERY much that Qyburn did it on his own initiative)

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On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 10:21 AM, dbunting said:

Have to disagree with you on this. She resigned herself to the fact that Tommen was going to die because of the prophecy. She already had her crown and gown being made before he died. She knew exactly what would happen, just not the how of it.

I can't really buy into such a line of reasoning.  "It was foretold that my son will die", so what is the logical thing to do?  Resign yourself to it, or fight against it. 

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16 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

I can't really buy into such a line of reasoning.  "It was foretold that my son will die", so what is the logical thing to do?  Resign yourself to it, or fight against it. 

When does Cersei do the logical thing? She didn't actively participate in his death, she prevented him from going to the sept, but none the less, her actions led to his death. IMO she felt like no matter what she did he was fated to die.

If she did the logical thing, and truly only loved her children, she would have killed herself. That would have broken the prophecy since she would not have seen them all die, and in theory, Tommen would live longer.

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9 hours ago, MtnLion said:

I can't really buy into such a line of reasoning.  "It was foretold that my son will die", so what is the logical thing to do?  Resign yourself to it, or fight against it. 

The logical thing for Cersie to do, if she believed the prophecy, would have been to commit suicide will she still had children left, thus negating the prophecy.

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On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 9:49 AM, dbunting said:

When does Cersei do the logical thing?

When she sends Gregor to keep Tommen from going to the Sept for the trials.  As I mentioned, this tells me that Cersei is not planning on taking the throne. 

Edited by MtnLion

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16 hours ago, MtnLion said:

When she sends Gregor to keep Tommen from going to the Sept for the trials.  As I mentioned, this tells me that Cersei is not planning on taking the throne. 

To me that only means she knows that he would die at her hands if he went there, not that she doesn't plan to take the throne after he dies.

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Cersei has always had it in for Pycelle. It's been established throughout the seasons. In season 6, he shunned Cersei and Jaime with the rest of the Small Council and was exerting too much of an influence on Tommen for Cersei's liking. Remember that scene with Cersei ordering him out when she saw him talking to Tommen? It was a long time coming.

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On 8/5/2016 at 7:32 AM, Khal BlackfyreO said:

This just struck me not too long ago as strange, isn´t Pycelle a Lannister lap dog essentially?  Isnt she just about one of the few Lannisters left?  Or could this be Qyburn´s move in solitary, but in tandem with her own at the Sept?

 

I think before you judge Pycelle, you should see this deleted scene between himself and Tywin Lannister. It completely changes what Pycelle is all about. Notice, he does not really answer Tywins question about Lannister support and foreshadows Pycelles demise seasons before with the Sept of Baelor reference.

 

Edited by cylonhybrid

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I think there are good reasons for Cersei to dispose of Pycelle.

The better question is: Why was Pycelle killed that way ? Why couldn't he just die in the sept explosion with everyone else ? 
This whole setup really just seemed like a lame excuse to show a particularly gruesome death.

Edited by Rhollo

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1 hour ago, Rhollo said:

I think there are good reasons for Cersei to dispose of Pycelle.

The better question is: Why was Pycelle killed that way ? Why couldn't he just die in the sept explosion with everyone else ? 
This whole setup really just seemed like a lame excuse to show a particularly gruesome death.

Maybe because it's a bit similar to how Varys kills Pycelle and Kevan in the books? The show also gave us the Frey pies (not in teh way most of us wanted them to be shown) despite the fact that it would have been easier for Arya to kill the Freys in another way. However, both the Frey pie scene and the Pycelle scene were very shocking and the showrunners love shocking death scenes. 

Edited by Lady of Whisperers

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41 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

Maybe because it's a bit similar to how Varys kills Pycelle and Kevan in the books? The show also gave us the Frey pies (not in teh way most of us wanted them to be shown) despite the fact that it would have been easier for Arya to kill the Freys in another way. However, both the Frey pie scene and the Pycelle scene were very shocking and the showrunners love shocking death scenes. 

I know it was supposed to be a reference to Varys' kills in the books. But why the hell do they adapt a scene so totally out of context that it doesn't make sense anymore ?

Including the Frey pies into Arya's revenge kill of Walder was still somewhat "logical" (although logistics of killing and cooking the Freys would be interesting).

But the Pycelle kill ? The only explanation I can come up with would be that Qyburn hated Pycelle so much he took pleasure in seeing him die. But the monologe he gives doesn't support that in any way, even quite the contrary.

As you say, they apparently just love shocking death scenes, no context needed.

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18 hours ago, Rhollo said:

I know it was supposed to be a reference to Varys' kills in the books. But why the hell do they adapt a scene so totally out of context that it doesn't make sense anymore ?

Including the Frey pies into Arya's revenge kill of Walder was still somewhat "logical" (although logistics of killing and cooking the Freys would be interesting).

But the Pycelle kill ? The only explanation I can come up with would be that Qyburn hated Pycelle so much he took pleasure in seeing him die. But the monologe he gives doesn't support that in any way, even quite the contrary.

As you say, they apparently just love shocking death scenes, no context needed.

The adapting book scenes out of context thing is something they've done quite often during the last two seasons. Maybe they just liked the way in which Kevan was killed in the books, because it was so shocking and because they wanted a similar scene, but they couldn't use Varys for it because he was needed in Dorne. 

Whenever you don't understand why something is happening in the show just remind yourself of this quote from David Benihoff: "Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen."  The last season gave me the impression that the showrunners have started to value epic and shocking scenes more than logic and to be fair this works with a large part of the audience. 

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28 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

The adapting book scenes out of context thing is something they've done quite often during the last two seasons. Maybe they just liked the way in which Kevan was killed in the books, because it was so shocking and because they wanted a similar scene, but they couldn't use Varys for it because he was needed in Dorne. 

Whenever you don't understand why something is happening in the show just remind yourself of this quote from David Benihoff: "Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen."  The last season gave me the impression that the showrunners have started to value epic and shocking scenes more than logic and to be fair this works with a large part of the audience. 

I agree with that, but for some reason I still want to give them credit for actually putting more thought into their writing and what that thought could have been.

The conclusion that they are deliberately building this potemkin village of a story with superficial, meaningless scenes with no value to (and sometimes even damaging) the narrative, is just so disappointing.

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