Tyrion and Petyr

[Lost Melnibonean]

Does the plot demand a reckoning between Tyrion and Petyr?

Quote

The dwarfs are not to blame, Tyrion decided. When they are done, I shall compliment them and give them a fat purse of silver. And come the morrow, I will find whoever planned this little diversion and arrange for a different sort of thanks.

Tyrion VIII, Storm 60

Quote

 

As he led her below, he said, "Tell me of the feast. The queen took such pains. The singers, the jugglers, the dancing bear . . . did your little lord husband enjoy my jousting dwarfs?"

"Yours?"

"I had to send to Braavos for them and hide them away in a brothel until the wedding. The expense was exceeded only by the bother. It is surprisingly difficult to hide a dwarf, and Joffrey . . . you can lead a king to water, but with Joff one had to splash it about before he realized he could drink it. When I told him about my little surprise, His Grace said, ‘Why would I want some ugly dwarfs at my feast? I hate dwarfs.' I had to take him by the shoulder and whisper, ‘Not as much as your uncle will.'"

 

Sansa V, Storm 61

If so, how do you suppose it will occur? 

[Seams]

This is going to be a twist, I think. Penny will kill Baelish when she figures out that he killed Groat and made it look as if it had been part of the general dwarf-killing spree in response to the reward offered for Tyrion's death.

[Light a wight tonight]

This is interesting to speculate about. One satisfying scenario would be Tyrion becoming a dragon rider and treating Lord Petyr to some dracarys following Dany's invasion, if that ever happens.

I really see LF being dead before Tyrion gets back to Westeros, though, through some Sansa-related agency, when she learns that he was responsible for Ned's death.

[Lost Melnibonean]

24 minutes ago, Seams said:

This is going to be a twist, I think. Penny will kill Baelish when she figures out that he killed Groat and made it look as if it had been part of the general dwarf-killing spree in response to the reward offered for Tyrion's death.

Wait... what?

[Seams]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Wait... what?

I think Groat offered to sell a couple of dragon eggs to Petyr. Groat and Penny were given the eggs by the Sealord of Braavos as a generous gesture of appreciation for their act. As he did with Ser Dontos, Petyr got what he wanted and then eliminated the witness. So the payback to Petyr for humiliating Tyrion at the feast will happen, but it will come from this unexpected quarter of Penny, who will be getting revenge for the death of her brother.

Maybe Sweetrobin Aryn will inherit Petyr's dragons, and this will finally allow him to fly like the Winged Knight.

/tinfoil

[DarkSister1001]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Does the plot demand a reckoning between Tyrion and Petyr?

Tyrion VIII, Storm 60

Sansa V, Storm 61

If so, how do you suppose it will occur? 

I certainly thinking it will happen but can't think of how/when.  I originally thought it would be Tyrion flying up to the Vale on dragonback but then they made their Winter descent. 

[Maxxine]

I really don't see the Tyrion/Petyr dynamic being important enough for them to have some big dramatic reunion. Their issues, to me, were so subtle, I'd be surprised if it's really necessary to bring them back together. There are so many other reunions, imo, that will have a much bigger impact on the plot. Tyrion/Cersei; Tyrion/Jaime; Petyr/LSH; Arya/the Hound; Bran/ Jaime. I  don't even think all of these will actually happen but I would expect them before Tyrion/Petyr. Also, I think Petyr will die before Tyrion would even has the opportunity to catch up with him.

[Morgana Lannister]

I have always been partial to the idea (unlikely as it may seem) than since both Tyrion and Sansa have been badly framed by Petyr that they might be the ones to compare notes and take him down together.

It is of course possible that this might happen before Tyrion is back on Westeros soil of course but I think there would be some poetic justice in that.

As for Penny, my personal view is that she won't be end game and might very well die in TWOW and that Tyrion wil be deeply sad but that it will be totally unconnected with Petyr.

I think that LF's next move will be to kill (or try) Robert Arryn, which will probably be the straw that broke the camel's back as far as Sansa is concerned but i also feel that the fact that he is hoarding food will be relevant.  Now, of course I do wonder if the Vale wild clans may yet reappear, and last we saw them they seem loyal (if for coin and weapons) to Tyrion.

Not saying that all these elements will be part of the plot but somehow I feel there might be a connection somewhere although exactly how it could all play out is not that easy to say.  But okay, my tinfoil two cents for now...

[Lost Melnibonean]

22 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

This is interesting to speculate about. One satisfying scenario would be Tyrion becoming a dragon rider and treating Lord Petyr to some dracarys following Dany's invasion, if that ever happens.

I really see LF being dead before Tyrion gets back to Westeros, though, through some Sansa-related agency, when she learns that he was responsible for Ned's death.

But maybe, just maybe, Sansa is not that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow? Maybe, just maybe, it's Arya. If so, we have some possibilities to bring a few plot lines together. Tysha is in Braavos with Tyrion’s daughter, and there is some foreshadowing for Tyrion going to Braavos. Perhaps he might say a little prayer at the House of Black and White, and perhaps they might send a certain no one to give Petyr the gift. The plot definitely demands a reckoning between the sisters, but I don't believe Arya would kill Sansa or vice versa. 

[Aegon VII]

I see LF living longer than most characters.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

I really don't see the Tyrion/Petyr dynamic being important enough for them to have some big dramatic reunion. Their issues, to me, were so subtle, I'd be surprised if it's really necessary to bring them back together. There are so many other reunions, imo, that will have a much bigger impact on the plot. Tyrion/Cersei; Tyrion/Jaime; Petyr/LSH; Arya/the Hound; Bran/ Jaime. I  don't even think all of these will actually happen but I would expect them before Tyrion/Petyr. Also, I think Petyr will die before Tyrion would even has the opportunity to catch up with him.

So for Tyrion to dispatch an assassin to terminate Petyr would make more sense than to have the two face off again? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I have always been partial to the idea (unlikely as it may seem) than since both Tyrion and Sansa have been badly framed by Petyr that they might be the ones to compare notes and take him down together.

It is of course possible that this might happen before Tyrion is back on Westeros soil of course but I think there would be some poetic justice in that.

As for Penny, my personal view is that she won't be end game and might very well die in TWOW and that Tyrion wil be deeply sad but that it will be totally unconnected with Petyr.

I think that LF's next move will be to kill (or try) Robert Arryn, which will probably be the straw that broke the camel's back as far as Sansa is concerned but i also feel that the fact that he is hoarding food will be relevant.  Now, of course I do wonder if the Vale wild clans may yet reappear, and last we saw them they seem loyal (if for coin and weapons) to Tyrion.

Not saying that all these elements will be part of the plot but somehow I feel there might be a connection somewhere although exactly how it could all play out is not that easy to say.  But okay, my tinfoil two cents for now...

Tyrion did promise the Vale to the clans, and a Lannister always pays his debts. Of course, turning over the Vale to the clans would alienate the Knights of the Vale and many other lords, but there is that fourth daughter of Elys and Alys who was carried off by the Burned Men...

[Lost Melnibonean]

13 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

I see LF living longer than most characters.

That doesn't answer the question. Do you believe they will have a reckoning but that Petyr will come out on top? 

[Light a wight tonight]

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But maybe, just maybe, Sansa is not that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow? Maybe, just maybe, it's Arya. If so, we have some possibilities to bring a few plot lines together. Tysha is in Braavos with Tyrion’s daughter, and there is some foreshadowing for Tyrion going to Braavos. Perhaps he might say a little prayer at the House of Black and White, and perhaps they might send a certain no one to give Petyr the gift. The plot definitely demands a reckoning between the sisters, but I don't believe Arya would kill Sansa or vice versa. 

Sansa has a few potentially violent male characters with some sort of interest in her, including Sandor. Luthor Brune, and the Mad Mouse, whoever he really is. And she has the hairnet, unless LF has switched it with a harmless one.

I don't see Arya becoming a real Faceless agent and don't see Tyrion hiring/being able to hire one. Arya may be adding Baelish to her list of "to do" people if she learns that LF engineered Ned's death, but that's a different story.

I don't see any need for reconciliation between Arya and Sansa either. Arya wants to be with her pack and Sansa misses the family so much that she's including Jon.

[Maxxine]

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So for Tyrion to dispatch an assassin to terminate Petyr would make more sense than to have the two face off again? 

I can't see him doing that either. For me, the Petyr/Tyrion conflict is not high enough on the list of character conflicts to make me think one would go after the other. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Tyrion is aware (or even suspects) that Petyr is the won who framed him for Joffrey's death or that he was the one who hired the dwarfs? Idk if Tyrion is even aware of how much of enemy Petyr actually is. He knows he can't trust him but high enough on Tyrion's list to warrant him going out of his way to kill Petyr himself or hire an assassin. I could see a scenario where Tyrion thinks to kill Petyr because he is an untrustworthy threat but I don't think it would be this big reckoning. I think it is bigger conflict in the mind of the reader because we know everything than it actually is  in-story

[Morgana Lannister]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tyrion did promise the Vale to the clans, and a Lannister always pays his debts. Of course, turning over the Vale to the clans would alienate the Knights of the Vale and many other lords, but there is that fourth daughter of Elys and Alys who was carried off by the Burned Men...

Like you, I think the debt will be paid somehow.  Now, interestingly of course Sansa is in the Vale, Sansa knows a fair few secrets re Petyr (including that he is the one hoarding food), the Lords of the Vale will be well annoyed when winter comes and they are left to scarve or pay whatever Petyr commands.  If there is any conceivable way in which Sansa and Tyrion might communicate at this stage (which I grant you guys, seems extremely far fetched), Tyrion would use this knowledge and mayhaps even the clans as his enforcement weapon to give Petyr at the very least a serious headache.  Of course if Sansa is to be part of it she has to be even more disenchanted with LF than she already is but I don't think that will take much...  

This brings me to why on earth did Petyr told her that much about the Purple Wedding etc...It sounded foolish to me at the time unless it was a warning to her for her not to try to beat him as his own game, to show her that he always wins and would be "futile" perhaps... but still.  If Petyr tries to kill Sweet Robin and make her his accomplice again this is going to backfire "me thinks"

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That doesn't answer the question. Do you believe they will have a reckoning but that Petyr will come out on top? 

I certainly can't see Petyr coming up on top in the end.  Bitter-sweet as the end might be, I don't think that is part of it.  It could be part of it of course and then someone else would take LF down but I reckon Tyrion is one of the few characters that seems almost safe to assume will be there until the very end, if he dies at all...

[Morgana Lannister]

3 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

I can't see him doing that either. For me, the Petyr/Tyrion conflict is not high enough on the list of character conflicts to make me think one would go after the other. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Tyrion is aware (or even suspects) that Petyr is the won who framed him for Joffrey's death or that he was the one who hired the dwarfs? Idk if Tyrion is even aware of how much of enemy Petyr actually is. He knows he can't trust him but high enough on Tyrion's list to warrant him going out of his way to kill Petyr himself or hire an assassin. I could see a scenario where Tyrion thinks to kill Petyr because he is an untrustworthy threat but I don't think it would be this big reckoning. I think it is bigger conflict in the mind of the reader because we know everything than it actually is  in-story

Mayhaps not but Tyrion (correct me if I am wrong) is aware that he framed him for that dagger business with Bran and I think it is safe to assume that him and Sansa will meet at some stage as both will be important players on their respective sides and also they might need to sort out once and for all their marriage.  It would only take a little talk which does not even require for them to be even very good friends.  Sansa knows Tyrion is a capable player and has reason to go against Petyr, why not use him to help her with this?

[John Suburbs]

Petyr has been trying to get rid of Tyrion since the beginning of the story, probably because he knows T is the one person in Westeros -- perhaps besides Varys -- who can unravel all of his plotting. Note:

Petyr fingered (sorry) Tyrion as the owner of the knife, implicating him in Bran's attempted murder.

Ser Mandon Moore tried to kill Tyrion on the Blackwater, which Tyrion concluded was at Cersei's direction. But Ser Mandon -- a truly weird character if there every was one -- comes from the Vale and was named to the KG at Arryn's request. So LF's stink is all over this.

Most people disagree, and the explanation is long and convoluted, but the fact is that the poison at the Purple Wedding was in Tyrion's pie, not the wine, which means both LF and Lady O were trying to kill Tyrion, not Joffrey.

GRRM's plots don't work in perfect symmetry where the righteous vanquish the wicked and all justice is served, but there is unfinished business between these two.

[Morgana Lannister]

11 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Sansa has a few potentially violent male characters with some sort of interest in her, including Sandor. Luthor Brune, and the Mad Mouse, whoever he really is. And she has the hairnet, unless LF has switched it with a harmless one.

 

Oh, could someone quickly refresh my mind re hairnet.  Sorry, haven't got the books with me right now and this is interesting.  That is essentially proof and could get her and potentially Tyrion off the hook.  Okay, Tyrion is still in deep shit re Tywin though but yeah...  Now, also yes I think Sandor and Mad Mouse are in the story for a reason (or more than one).  Many also think that it might be Sandor who tells Sansa about LF's part in Ned's death.  This is looking more and more (Petyr's demise) as an Orient Express scenario lol I have to say I would enjoy multiple parties joining forces against Petyr.

[Morgana Lannister]

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Petyr has been trying to get rid of Tyrion since the beginning of the story, probably because he knows T is the one person in Westeros -- perhaps besides Varys -- who can unravel all of his plotting. Note:

Petyr fingered (sorry) Tyrion as the owner of the knife, implicating him in Bran's attempted murder.

Ser Mandon Moore tried to kill Tyrion on the Blackwater, which Tyrion concluded was at Cersei's direction. But Ser Mandon -- a truly weird character if there every was one -- comes from the Vale and was named to the KG at Arryn's request. So LF's stink is all over this.

Most people disagree, and the explanation is long and convoluted, but the fact is that the poison at the Purple Wedding was in Tyrion's pie, not the wine, which means both LF and Lady O were trying to kill Tyrion, not Joffrey.

GRRM's plots don't work in perfect symmetry where the righteous vanquish the wicked and all justice is served, but there is unfinished business between these two.

I have always wondered if in fact Tyrion knows or Petyr thinks knows something really, really big about him because yes he seems to be tireless when it comes to trying to get him killed.  I thought maybe some deals LF did as Master of Coin but of course the dagger business happens before Tyrion got the job replacing Petyr so probably something else.