Vary's end game REVEALED

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

9 minutes ago, jamprab said:

Actually, I think Baelish doesn't care about the throne.  He wants Winterfell, and he wants all of the Starks dead.  If he still loved Catelyn, why did he lie to her about having Arya in season 2?  If he loves Sansa, why did he lie about Arya again in season 3, then put her in an unsupervised mortal peril situation with Ramsay?  He told us his true intentions in season 5 when he was talking to Cersei.  He wants the North.  

Watch the panic in his eyes when Jon is named King in the North.  He didn't expect that.  The look he gave Sansa afterwards screamed "bad investment".

In the books yes Baelish most likely just wants the Stark's ancerstal seat with Sansa as his wife as a big "f-u" to Brandon, Ned Stark and all the other people that deem Baelish "not worthy" of some like Cat or Sansa, but in the show they literally had Baelish say his end goal out loud to Sansa in the finale

"A picture of me....on the Iron Throne. With you by my side"

[AugustusTheGreat]

2 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Well he technically wouldn't be lying if a Targaryen being on the Throne would be "better for the realm".

He didn't know Ned Stark was a dead man actually. Varys knew Cersei wanted to spare Ned and send him to the nights watch. LF's scheming behind Cersei and Vary's backs led to Ned's death.

Well no, he told Ned about the realm thing as he was sitting in prison about to be sentenced. Even if Ned got out, would he serious rat out the guy who nourished him while he was rotting in a cell, and even if he did that, then would the realm take Ned seriously after he admits to lying about his rumors that Joffery isnt trueborn? Ned is a man of honor, and technically, Dany would be the rightful queen as opposed to Joffery, which means that he would have to respect her coming back. 

[jamprab]

6 minutes ago, AugustusTheGreat said:

If he wants the Starks dead, then why didnt he just leave them die in the battle of the bastards? Much simpler solution and it creates no suspicion that he was planning on killing them. 

Up until Jon was crowned King he thought he needed Sansa to take the North.  A child by her, followed by her untimely death, would result in him taking the North in a way Northerners could handle.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

9 minutes ago, AugustusTheGreat said:

Well no, he told Ned about the realm thing as he was sitting in prison about to be sentenced. Even if Ned got out, would he serious rat out the guy who nourished him while he was rotting in a cell, and even if he did that, then would the realm take Ned seriously after he admits to lying about his rumors that Joffery isnt trueborn? Ned is a man of honor, and technically, Dany would be the rightful queen as opposed to Joffery, which means that he would have to respect her coming back. 

Varys didn't know for sure that Ned was a dead man, even before being sentenced. Varys knew that Ned being executed would lead to the war between the Starks and Lannisters continuing, Ned being executed was the stupidest thing that could be done as he is a valuable hostage. Varys was probably already trying to council Cersei to spare Ned's life at this point and send him to the wall to end the hostilities between The North and South. I feel like Vary said this to Ned to get a response out of him. Get a feel for what his mental state was at the moment.

[AugustusTheGreat]

1 minute ago, jamprab said:

Up until Jon was crowned King he thought he needed Sansa to take the North.  A child by her, followed by hr untimely death, would result in him taking the North in a way Northerners could handle.

Why does he want to kill her? His true love was always Cat, who he was willing to die for. Sansa reminds him of Cat which means that he loves her intensely. 

[AugustusTheGreat]

4 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Varys didn't know for sure that Ned was a dead man, even before being sentenced. Varys knew that Ned being executed would lead to the war between the Starks and Lannisters continuing, Ned being executed was the stupidest thing that could be done as he is a valuable hostage. Varys was probably already trying to council Cersei to spare Ned's life at this point and send him to the wall to end the hostilities between The North and South. I feel like Vary said this to Ned to get a response out of him. Get a feel for what his mental state is at the moment.

Why does he care about the well being of the Starks/Lannister? If The Realm = The Realm, then this makes sense. But you said that The Realm = the Targeryns, and a massive war would prime Westeros for an easy conquest. 

[Iron Mother]

2 hours ago, jamprab said:

I'm saying he'll be a Blackfyre in both the books and the show.  This show is mainly about political intrigue, and Varys is the Kaiser Sose (a reference from the movie "The Usual Suspects", one of the greatest plot twists ever) of Westeros.  

but didn't they say Varys is NOT actually a eunuch?  I was just saying the pillow girl actually felt him up and was astonished to find nothing there.  Then Varys takes off his hood and acknowledges as much.

So are you saying he's like drag queen and hiding his junk?

Also, many, many times Varys has avowed himself as a moral arbiter of "the realm" who is essentially the opposite to Littlefinger who wants "the realm" for himself.  He brought Tyrion to Daenerys who is planning a conquer of Westeros, so are you saying he will then be revealed as the Blackfyre and depose/kill her after she has conquered Westeros and then rise up to establissh the ancient house of Blackfyre?

I need more to process the logic behind this.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

12 minutes ago, AugustusTheGreat said:

Why does he care about the well being of the Starks/Lannister? If The Realm = The Realm, then this makes sense. But you said that The Realm = the Targeryns, and a massive war would prime Westeros for an easy conquest. 

Varys and Illyrio didn't want a war "yet" is the key

Illyrio: What good is war now? we're not ready.

LF's scheming led to a conflict breaking out before Varys and Illyrio were completely prepared. They wanted to have a conflict break out right before the Targaryens were ready to set sail for Westeros. Dany had literally just became pregnant around this time and Drogo wouldn't do shit until his child was born. The child being born would cement the alliance between The Targs and Drogo indefinitely. Which would bound the two families into an alliance pact. If a war broke out too early and was then quelled quickly after, the Kingdoms would have time to recoup and the distractions of war would be gone. Varys and Illyrio wanted the Dothraki to strike the Kingdoms when they are at their most vulnerable. Which is when the two main sides are distracted tearing each other apart (The North/Starks and Iron Throne/Lannisters)

[AugustusTheGreat]

13 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Varys and Illyrio didn't want a war "yet" is the key

Illyrio: What good is war now? we're not ready.

LF's scheming led to a conflict breaking out before Varys and Illyrio were completely prepared. They wanted to have a conflict break out right before the Targaryens were ready to set sail for Westeros. Dany had literally just became pregnant around this time and Drogo wouldn't do shit until his child was born. The child being born would cement the alliance between The Targs and Drogo indefinitely 

If Dany has the baby, then that secures the fact that she has an army ready to fight for Her/Drogo's cause in Westeros. All they needs is to acquire ships, which the Dothraki horde can easily do. The war will be past its prime by the time they get 50 thousand men from the center of essos over the Westeros. 

Unless Varys was planning for Drogo to die, that would have been the best plan to restore Targeryn power considering that she is the only Targ left that comes from Egg's line. 

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

10 minutes ago, AugustusTheGreat said:

If Dany has the baby, then that secures the fact that she has an army ready to fight for Her/Drogo's cause in Westeros. All they needs is to acquire ships, which the Dothraki horde can easily do. 

Unless Varys was planning for Drogo to die, that would have been the best plan to restore Targeryn power considering that she is the only Targ left that comes from Egg's line. 

I also conclude that Varys and Illyrio didn't want a "War of Five Kings" to break out. I think the conflict they wanted to start up was between the Baratheons and Lannisters. They were probably planning to reveal the truth of Robert's kids to create a conflict between the Crownlands and the Westerlands which would bring the Stormlands into the frey which would cause the Stormland levies to be pulled West to deal with the Lannisters. (The Stormlands is probably where they planned to have the Dothraki land and with all the Stormland armies in the west they wouldn't have any opposition). Dorne would probably join the Targaryens the moment they land. They probably didn't even want to involve the northern kingdoms (North, Vale, Riverlands) and probably thought they could depose of the Baratheons and take KL before those northern kingdoms had enough time to bring their forces south.

[jamprab]

59 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

but didn't they say Varys is NOT actually a eunuch?  I was just saying the pillow girl actually felt him up and was astonished to find nothing there.  Then Varys takes off his hood and acknowledges as much.

So are you saying he's like drag queen and hiding his junk?

Also, many, many times Varys has avowed himself as a moral arbiter of "the realm" who is essentially the opposite to Littlefinger who wants "the realm" for himself.  He brought Tyrion to Daenerys who is planning a conquer of Westeros, so are you saying he will then be revealed as the Blackfyre and depose/kill her after she has conquered Westeros and then rise up to establissh the ancient house of Blackfyre?

I need more to process the logic behind this.

Who said Varys isn't a eunich?  I think the reason he's a eunich is different than what we've been told (by Varys himself, the only source).  I think he was made a eunich to extinguish the Blackfyre line forever.  Read the original post for more.

[Primalsplit]

Varys' end game is to bring communism. It is known.

[AugustusTheGreat]

8 hours ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

I also conclude that Varys and Illyrio didn't want a "War of Five Kings" to break out. I think the conflict they wanted to start up was between the Baratheons and Lannisters. They were probably planning to reveal the truth of Robert's kids to create a conflict between the Crownlands and the Westerlands which would bring the Stormlands into the frey which would cause the Stormland levies to be pulled West to deal with the Lannisters. (The Stormlands is probably where they planned to have the Dothraki land and with all the Stormland armies in the west they wouldn't have any opposition). Dorne would probably join the Targaryens the moment they land. They probably didn't even want to involve the northern kingdoms (North, Vale, Riverlands) and probably thought they could depose of the Baratheons and take KL before those northern kingdoms had enough time to bring their forces south.

Nah, he would have needed the whole Kingdom to be weakened. From season 1, we know that Westerosies think of the Dothraki and vile people and would never accept them as their ruler, even with a rightful Targ by their side. Even if the Baratheons and Lannisters at war, you still have have 5 major regions at full speed and ready to fight for a single cause, which can defeat the horde. 

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

21 minutes ago, AugustusTheGreat said:

Nah, he would have needed the whole Kingdom to be weakened. From season 1, we know that Westerosies think of the Dothraki and vile people and would never accept them as their ruler, even with a rightful Targ by their side. Even if the Baratheons and Lannisters at war, you still have have 5 major regions at full speed and ready to fight for a single cause, which can defeat the horde. 

And this is the problem. In the books Varys and Illyrio most likely wanted to use Viserys and the Dothraki as their conflict starter. The Dothraki would rape and pillage the country side and they have Faegon swoop in with the Golden Company looking like the savior, but without Faegon in the show it looks like they seriously wanted to try and take the throne with Viserys and the Dothraki. Which makes little to no sense. Taking Faegon out of the equation makes Varys and Illyrio look like idiots thinking they can take the throne with Viserys and the Dothraki.

[Cron]

On 8/5/2016 at 9:34 PM, jamprab said:

 

Varys's end game is to be King.  He became a eunich because the Targaryens sent someone to extinguish the line of the Blackfyres.  Rather than kill him they would have him live his life knowing his legacy would die with him.  His goal is to extinguish the Targaryen line.  What better way to do so than to become one of their most trusted allies?  The reason Young Griff is not a part of the show is Varys can replace him as the Blackfyre contender for the throne.  

He takes people of talent and honor and puts them into positions of power.  Why?  So they trust him entirely.      

When Oberyn asks Varys what he really wants, Varys responded by looking at the throne.  He wants to take the throne before he dies so a Blackfyre will have finally succeeded.  

Varys story of how he was cut is a lie.  If it was for blood magic, wouldn't they burn him entirely?  Why did they only burn his privates?  So he couldn't reproduce.  He wasn't thrown out to die, they made sure he lived.

Update 8/6

Five thoughts to add:

1. Varys said he grew up with mummers.  I think he means The Bloody Mummers, aka The Golden Company.  A company started by a Blackfyre and whom were sworn to protect that line.  They must have sold Varys to his enemies.
2. The voice Varys heard was Bran's, and Bran will be the one to bring the Blackfyres into the show.  When Kinvara speaks to Varys she says "should i tell you the name of the one who spoke?"  If it was her god, why not credit him directly?  Why leave it vague?  She leaves it vague because she knows Varys knows the speaker's identity, and the speaker's identity is important to Varys.  Whether Varys knew it was Bran or mistook him for another is a separate question.
3. Varys was born in Lys, which has the greatest population of remaining Valyrians in the world.
4. Viserys, Aerys, Daenerys, Varys, Jaeherys.  Varys name is similar to Targaryen names.
5.  Varys constantly shaves his head.  Why?  How many completely shaven heads are there among the shows characters?

 

Let me know your thoughts, Thanks!

Lot of interesting stuff there to consider, especialy with the five extra points in the edit.

Great job.

If you're right, Varys had me fooled.

[Cron]

9 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

And this is the problem. In the books Varys and Illyrio most likely wanted to use Viserys and the Dothraki as their conflict starter. The Dothraki would rape and pillage the country side and they have Faegon swoop in with the Golden Company looking like the savior, but without Faegon in the show it looks like they seriously wanted to try and take the throne with Viserys and the Dothraki. Which makes little to no sense. Taking Faegon out of the equation makes Varys and Illyrio look like idiots thinking they can take the throne with Viserys and the Dothraki.

One of the most inexplicable things about the show to me is the absence of Griff and Young Griff.

I've done some pretty heavy looking into of the Young Griff/Aegon issue, and in my opinion Young Griff seems to be the real deal. (The single most compelling piece of evidence to me is what Varys says to Kevan Lannister while Kevan is dying.   As has been pointed out, why would Varys bother to iie to a dying man?  The scene makes no sense to me, unless Young Griff really is Aegon)

Indeed, after reading A Dance with Dragons, I was convinced Young Griff was the third head of the dragon.  And yet...totally absent from the show.

Dunno.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

8 minutes ago, Cron said:

One of the most inexplicable things about the show to me is the absence of Griff and Young Griff.

I've done some pretty heavy looking into of the Young Griff/Aegon issue, and in my opinion Young Griff seems to be the real deal. (The single most compelling piece of evidence to me is what Varys says to Kevan Lannister while Kevan is dying.   As has been pointed out, why would Varys bother to iie to a dying man?  The scene makes no sense to me, unless Young Griff really is Aegon)

Indeed, after reading A Dance with Dragons, I was convinced Young Griff was the third head of the dragon.  And yet...totally absent from the show.

Dunno.

Well..

“Aegon?” For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. “Dead. He’s dead.”

“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here."

Notice that Kevan doesn't say "Aegon Targaryen" he simply says "Aegon"

I believe Youngh Griff's real name is in fact Aegon, but I do not believe for a second that he is "Aegon Targaryen" Rhaegar's son. No way Varys would know that Gregor Clegane was gonna smash "Aegon's" head to bits to make him unrecognizable so that would conveniently help in his plan to spirit the real Aegon off unnoticed.

So if Young Griff's real name is in fact Aegon then Varys saying "No, he is here" wouldn't be a lie. As the Aegon currently besieging Storms End obviously isn't dead.

[AugustusTheGreat]

28 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

And this is the problem. In the books Varys and Illyrio most likely wanted to use Viserys and the Dothraki as their conflict starter. The Dothraki would rape and pillage the country side and they have Faegon swoop in with the Golden Company looking like the savior, but without Faegon in the show it looks like they seriously wanted to try and take the throne with Viserys and the Dothraki. Which makes little to no sense. Taking Faegon out of the equation makes Varys and Illyrio look like idiots thinking they can take the throne with Viserys and the Dothraki.

Well, its not like they have another choice. If they are super loyal to the Targs as you say, then they dont have another choice because Viserys is the rightful king. 

I think that a Varys - Littlefinger connection reveal would be an awesome twist, and there are some signs, but for now, its all just speculation about Varys. No one knows his true intentions, which makes him a major X factor that I dont see the TV show just blowing off with a simplistic goal for him. 

[Gendry_Goldeneyes]

they cut the blackfyre storyline from the show. Zero mention of them so far

also the bloody mummers and the golden company are two completely different sellsword companies

as for baelish, he wants the iron throne like most upstarts. He wants his rags to riches storyline.

[Cron]

1 hour ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Well..

“Aegon?” For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. “Dead. He’s dead.”

“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here."

Notice that Kevan doesn't say "Aegon Targaryen" he simply says "Aegon"

I believe Youngh Griff's real name is in fact Aegon, but I do not believe for a second that he is "Aegon Targaryen" Rhaegar's son. No way Varys would know that Gregor Clegane was gonna smash "Aegon's" head to bits to make him unrecognizable so that would conveniently help in his plan to spirit the real Aegon off unnoticed.

So if Young Griff's real name is in fact Aegon then Varys saying "No, he is here" wouldn't be a lie. As the Aegon currently besieging Storms End obviously isn't dead.

Very interesting, and I understand it's not 100 percent confirmed either way.

Maybe Young Griff/Aegon is all really just a red herring.  Seems like a pretty elaborate and extensive ruse for a trail that leads...nowhere, though.  If Young Griff is not Rhaegar's son, the entire sub-plot strikes me as almost a whole bunch of wasted space and pages, particularly in light of what actually IS going on with SO many other characters.  But maybe that's it, maybe GRRM was just looking to fill pages with an extensive sub-plot which will never amount to anything of consequence.

I suppose that's possible.