Did GRRM miss an opportunity to send a subtle message about race in ASIOAF

[thewolfofStarfall]

I saw an old thread on here that said the idea came to Martin 20 years after the books were publsihsed, but in retrospect he would have made the Valyrians black. 

First of all, does anyone have a link to what interview he says this is in?

Second of all, some of the the users on here believed the idea wouldn't work for the following reasons:

1.) Strong racial undertones that would lead the public to accuse GRRM of being a white supremacist. For instance, Roberts's Rebellion would be reduced to a race war where nobles of a predominantly white realm defeat an evil black tyrant with the  aforementioned tyrant's royal family practicing incest to keep themselves special. 

2.) R+L=J would be easy to spot

3.) Making them black would not have an effect of otherworldliness to the reader, because dark skin is already naturally occurring in real life

However, none of the aforementioned points have to be true.

In regards to the potential "race war". The world of ASIOAF doesn't have the social construct of race and discrimination the same way our society does. The ethnic groups and their respective cultures in Westeros are the Andals, First Men and the Rhoynar, but society is not made into groups of "whites","blacks" "Asians" etc. The same way the First Men are described as having brown/black hair with grey eyes, and the Andals are described being tall and blonde, the Targs/Valyrians  would be described as something along the lines of "silver hair w/ purple eyes and skin ranging from medium brown to dark brown" and it there would be no conflict attached to it. In addition, we have Dorne, so the Targaryens would not be the only non-white group present in Westeros. However, to avoid all risks, Martin's best bet would be to also make one of the rebel kingdoms in Robert's Rebbellion black or otherwise non-white. The Vale (let's say the Andals never came to the Vale) would be perfect because it where Ned and Robert  grew up together under the guidance of Jon Arryn, therefore further avoiding any sentiments of a "race war". 

Westeros has experienced brutal wars, however GRRM would have left a pretty intriguing message to the reader if that one thing the nobles of Westeros are NOT fighting over is something benign has a phenotype.

Futhermore, R+L=J would still work. The best thing about fantasy is that the author has creative license. Genetics in ASIOAF already inherently unrealistic. Dark skin could be a ressesive gene in GRRM's world. Or if GRRM decided to go the route of writing the Vale as inhabited by people of color, it would be perfect cover up for Jon's parentage. 

Lastly, the otherworldliness would still be apparent to the reader, because these hypothetical Valyrians wouldn't just be dark skinned, they would have the same purple eyes and silver hair as they do now. Considering where the Valyrians originate, logically it does make more sense for them to be dark skinned.

Personally, the aspect of heterogeny in Westeros would not take away the impression of a meideval society for me,  because ASIOAF is first and foremost a fantasy story based on the late meideval time period not historical fiction. What do you guys think?

[redeagl]

I couldn't care less about skin colour.

[Golden Eyes]

To the OP with this one, 1.) Strong racial undertones that would lead the public to accuse GRRM of being a white supremacist. For instance  Roberts's Rebellion would be reduced to a race war where nobles of a predominantly white realm defeat an evil black tyrant with the  aforementioned tyrant's royal family practicing incest to keep themselves special. 

I guess Martin is damned if he does or damned if he doesnt? The fact that people would automaticlaly think it was about a race war because of skincolor alone tells how f'd up people are today.

Can we stop with this BS on here please?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 hours ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

1.) Strong racial undertones that would lead the public to accuse GRRM of being a white supremacist. For instance  Roberts's Rebellion would be reduced to a race war where nobles of a predominantly white realm defeat an evil black tyrant with the  aforementioned tyrant's royal family practicing incest to keep themselves special. 

How that could happen? Which were the races?

[gregg22]

With the real world sickly obsessed with race, is it really necessary to insert a completely hypothetical race element into something that is supposed to be our escape from reality?

Please someone save us from this sick obsession.

Count me for one vote for locking this thread.

 

[RoamingRonin]

It would have been an interesting, bold move. Cultural differences matter more than race does within the series so it would be more of a issue for readers than for the characters.

One things for sure, Daenerys would have been spared from being called a "white savior".

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 hours ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

I saw an old thread on here that said the idea came to Martin 20 years after the books were publsihsed, but in retrospect he would have made the Valyrians black. 

First of all, does anyone have a link to what interview he says this is in?

Second of all, some of the the users on here believed the idea wouldn't work for the following reasons:

1.) Strong racial undertones that would lead the public to accuse GRRM of being a white supremacist. For instance  Roberts's Rebellion would be reduced to a race war where nobles of a predominantly white realm defeat an evil black tyrant with the  aforementioned tyrant's royal family practicing incest to keep themselves special. 

 

 

Except Robert, and a fair portion of the nobility, will be dark skinned or mixed race after 300 years of Targaryens/Baratheons/Velaryons/Celtigars inter marrying with the other Houses.

The peasants would be white, the nobility would be largely mixed race. And the same would be true in Essos where the most powerful families were descendants of Valyrians.

The Starks, thanks to the Norths largely isolationism and intermarrying with other Northern Houses, would be white. The Lannisters too would also be paler than many other prominent Houses.  

Darker skinned people would look down on paler people.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

There is no way GRRM wouldn't have been portrayed as a racist if he had done this.

Keep in mind that some people are even accusing him of racism due to parts of his portrayals of Dorne and the Summer Isles, two regions that are very idealized compared to the rest of the ASOIAF world (and the real world cultures he based those countries off of). It is thus not very hard to imagine what the reactions would have been had he portrayed an actual evil people like the Valyrians as black.

[YorEmixam]

1 hour ago, gregg22 said:

With the real world sickly obsessed with race, is it really necessary to insert a completely hypothetical race element into something that is supposed to be our escape from reality?

Please someone save us from this sick obsession.

Count me for one vote for locking this thread.

 

Why? Can't you just move on to the next topic or you really have to prevent people from talking about something you don't want them to talk about?

[YOVMO]

3 hours ago, redeagl said:

I couldn't care less about skin colour.

Exactly this. Shoe horning more modern BS race issues into this story? some people. Smh

[The Wull]

Seems like it would create more problems than it would have solved.  I don't see the issue; nobody would complain if a novel set in ancient China had an all-chinese cast.  A lot of places in the world just aren't very diverse - these places have stories worth telling as well.

[RumHam]

5 hours ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

First of all, does anyone have a link to what interview he says this is in?

Not actually an interview, but a blog comment:

http://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17888842#t17888842

Quote

But in recent years, it has occured to me from time to time that it might have made for an interesting twist if instead I had made the dragonlords of Valyria... and therefore the Targaryens... black. Maybe I could have kept the silver hair too, though... no, that comes too close to 'dark elf' territory, but still... if I'd had dark-skinned dragonlords invade and conquer and dominate a largely white Westeros... though that choice would have brought its own perils. The Targaryens have not all been heroic, after all... some of them have been monsters, madmen, so...

Well, it's all moot. The idea came to me about twenty years too late. 

 

[thewolfofStarfall]

5 hours ago, gregg22 said:

With the real world sickly obsessed with race, is it really necessary to insert a completely hypothetical race element into something that is supposed to be our escape from reality?

Please someone save us from this sick obsession.

Count me for one vote for locking this thread.

 

What? Did you even read what I wrote? I said that Targaryens would simply have darker skin, but it wouldn't effect how the characters treat them. Westeros would be essentially what in real life is described as "colorblind". The view on the series is that ASIOAF does not have a concept of racial classification as we know it in real life society, but one of culture tied with lineage. I think it would be an impactful move to create the Valyrians  an ethnic group what in our world would described as "black" people with silver hair and purple eyes. However, their "black" physical appearance would not be intrinsic to the story at all. If you think our current society is obsessed with race, well what I just described is the exact opposite and actually offers fantasy series  that is even further distant to our real life society works.

[thewolfofStarfall]

1 hour ago, The Wull said:

Seems like it would create more problems than it would have solved.  I don't see the issue; nobody would complain if a novel set in ancient China had an all-chinese cast. 

ASIOAF is not set in Europe though, it's set in Westeros and Essos. I like to think of GRRM's world as an alternative universe that draws inspiration from the late medieval time period/early Renaissance of world. Also, I never expressed the any sentiment of Westeros being homogeneous as a bad thing, but now what you bring it up, I see no reason why every character and group featured in Westeros must look 100% European. A story with a homogenous society is worth telling, but so is a story with a heterogeneous society. Lastly, the main "problem" of racism acusations, is not actually detrimental to the story of ASIOAF,  it's just a potential reaction that would go away with understanding. There's no reason the series would not be as successful as it is now.

[thewolfofStarfall]

2 hours ago, YorEmixam said:

Why? Can't you just move on to the next topic or you really have to prevent people from talking about something you don't want them to talk about?

This. Thank you.

 

[The Wull]

4 minutes ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

ASIOAF is not set in Europe though, it's set in Westeros and Essos. I like to think of GRRM's world as an alternative universe that draws inspiration from the late medieval time period/earlyRenaissance of world. Also, I never stated Westeros being homogeneous is a bad thing, but now what you bring it up, I see no reason why every character and group featured in Westeros must look 100% European. A story with a homogenous society is worth telling, but so is a story with a heterogeneous society. Lastly, the main "problem" of racism acusations, is not actually detrimental to the story of ASIOAF,  it's just a potential reaction that would go away with understanding. There's no reason the series would not be as successful as it is now.

I have no opinion either way, and haven't seen the GRRM quote you referenced.  I just want TWoW already 

[thewolfofStarfall]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

Exactly this. Shoe horning more modern BS race issues into this story? some people. Smh

 

3 hours ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

There is no way GRRM wouldn't have been portrayed as a racist if he had done this.

Keep in mind that some people are even accusing him of racism due to parts of his portrayals of Dorne and the Summer Isles, two regions that are very idealized compared to the rest of the ASOIAF world (and the real world cultures he based those countries off of). It is thus not very hard to imagine what the reactions would have been had he portrayed an actual evil people like the Valyrians as black.

Yeah, but the Valyrians weren't savage idiots like the Dothraki or Ironbornwho contribute nothing to society. Valyria was the  greatest civilization the known world had seen, but at the same the dragon lords  were mass inslavers. 

[thewolfofStarfall]

4 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How that could happen? Which were the races?

Well the whole realm would be predominantly white during Roberts rebellion. Unfortunately, in the eyes of some readers the  North, Vale, Stormlands, and Riverlands would be perceived as the "whites" and the Targaryens would be the "blacks". However, the aforementioned conception of a "race war" would be completely inaccurate, as they Reach and Dorne were Targaryen loyalists 

 

[thewolfofStarfall]

6 hours ago, Golden Eyes said:

To the OP with this one, 1.) Strong racial undertones that would lead the public to accuse GRRM of being a white supremacist. For instance  Roberts's Rebellion would be reduced to a race war where nobles of a predominantly white realm defeat an evil black tyrant with the aforementioned tyrant's royal family practicing incest to keep themselves special. 

I guess Martin is damned if he does or damned if he doesnt? The fact that people would automaticlaly think it was about a race war because of skincolor alone tells how f'd up people are today.

Can we stop with this BS on here please?

Yeah, but I think most people would get over it and don't think it would dentrimental to the success of the series.

[YOVMO]

13 minutes ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

 

Yeah, but the Valyrians weren't savage idiots like the Dothraki or Ironbornwho contribute nothing to society. Valyria was the  greatest civilization the known world had seen, but at the same the dragon lords  were mass inslavers. 

Neither the Dothraki nor the Ironborn are savage idiots. 

 

I think the larger point here is why do we need to insert bullshit 2016 made up phony causes into this story? What good does it do anyone. This story is in a self contained universe that in many ways makes our modern world look like a bunch of savage idiots. Maybe we can just accept and enjoy the world the grrm is giving us without having to force it to be as idiotic as ours.