Did GRRM miss an opportunity to send a subtle message about race in ASIOAF

[lojzelote]

To the OP, if you want statements like that, try The Realm of Elderlings books by Robin Hobb. She approached the subject very tastefully. I kept imagining Fitz and the Farseers as white since it is default for me, and then slowly realized they probably aren't. Theirs is a truly colorblinds society.

As for ASoIaF, I'm glad that GRRM with this idea twenty years too late. It would bring nothing but additional controversy if the Valyrians/Targaryens were black, while the rest of the Westerosi was white. I can already hear the screeching that GRRM turned poor blacks into slavers and conquerors, while the whites are portrayed as slaves and victims and how it is all white propaganda or some such nonsense.

Though I personally don't believe that this one single family and her court being black would in any way change the racial make-up of the Seven Kingdoms, as is discussed above. The Targaryens could preserve their skin color through incest, but once one of their daughters married a member of native nobility, it would take a couple of generations and her descendants would be as white as cotton. The Targaryens aren't like the Normans in that sense that they would almost entirely replace the Anglo-Saxon nobility with their own. The black royalty/nobility would be the Targaryens themselves, the Velaryons, the Celtigars, the Baratheons (though Orys looked different from Aegon and his sisters, no?), maybe the Masseys... contra all the noble houses of Andal and First Men heritage we have met so far. That's too few black drops against the overwhelming sea of whiteness, they would be quickly outbred, dominant genes or no (not taking into account GRRM's convenient fantasy genetics).

For racial dynamics and make-up of the Seven kingdoms to naturally change, he would have to make black either the Andals or the First Men, and which skin color would become more prestigious would depend on which of these peoples were originally black (but since both groups frequently interbred in the next few thousands of years, they would all be mostly mixed by now, even in the North, though to a lesser extent).

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Lol @ "subtle"

[thewolfofStarfall]

10 hours ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

"No it's not racist. Tuck the racism card back in your deck friendo. Nothing I said implies that this fictional black race is inferior to the fictional white one. Or whatever it is you're saying".

You're just going to scream "racism card", anytime someone expresses a sentiment as being problematic? Very mature. 

"It's an opinion about a fantasy story, about fantasy peoples. If GRRM had made it about race it would take away from the message he went with, which is about war and peace. You can only have so many themes before it starts to get muddled. Westerosi are not partiularly xenophobic so where would the conflict come from"?

 

Now I'm just confused. I have repeatedly said there would be no conflict if the Targaryens had the same hair and eyes, but just with a darker skin tone. alittledragonthatcould is the one who thinks otherwise.

"And the Valyrians are hardly "all his main characters". Like one or two protagonists are Valyrian. Everyone else would be white even if Dany and Aegon were black".

 

What the fuck? Never once did I say that the Valyrians take up the majority of the characters. I said the majority of the ASIOAF characters are what would called white in real life.

"And ASoIaF is not high fantasy, it's mid fantasy at best. High fantasy is D&D or The Hobbit. Both of which are boring because they are not based on real life events in history like ASoIaF is".

Its has been repeatedly described as high fantasy, but my input is that is somewhat based in realism. To be honest, you are really exaggerating how much ASIOAF is based on real life events in history. That idea needs to be taken with a grain of salt, because no one is trying to read historical fiction when they read the books or watch the show. ASIOAF will always first and foremost be a fantasy series, and the inspiration the saga gets from real western Eurpean history will always be secondary.

 

[thewolfofStarfall]

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Lol @ "subtle"

Why "lol"? Having a race in the story that is not white, somehow is going to transform the entire series into one big racial agenda? Seriously, this argument is getting tiring.

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

21 hours ago, The Wull said:

I agree with your overall point, but it's hard for me to criticize him when the groundwork was laid decades ago, before he knew the platform he'd eventually have.  I'm uneasy bringing TV/film considerations into this, because then you're (possibly) changing the story for non-plot reasons, even if they're noble.  

It's a tough spot to be in, undoubtedly.  

Oh, I'm not criticising GRRM for not predicting how influential his series would be. I just brought up the show for an example of how diversity in fiction can indirectly benefit real-life POC.

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

As for ASoIaF, I'm glad that GRRM with this idea twenty years too late. It would bring nothing but additional controversy if the Valyrians/Targaryens were black, while the rest of the Westerosi was white. I can already hear the screeching that GRRM turned poor blacks into slavers and conquerors, while the whites are portrayed as slaves and victims and how it is all white propaganda or some such nonsense.

15 hours ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

That said I don't see what GRRM would really have gained by making such a change as the one proposed in the OP. The majority of readers don't care much about this kind of left wing race stuff and would either be indifferent to it or annoyed due to it feeling shoe horned in (which it would be), and the readers that do care about these things would not be pleased at all. On the contrary, they would 100% surely have labeled GRRM a racist for it. Again, keep in mind that some people already accuse him for this due to stuff like portraying the Dornish as promiscous and hot blooded, even though neither of those traits are even necessarily negative. It doesn't take much imagination to see what they then would think about a race of black people being portrayed as sadistic, blood magic using slavers, and the history of their main noble family in the series basically being a 300 year long parade of incestous madmen and tyrants.

Ok, I'll ask this again: have you actually seen anybody call GRRM a racist for this idea?

Note that portrayal of the Dornish and the Summer Islanders is criticised because both cultures are laden with racial stereotypes. Valyrian culture does not reinforce any existing stereotypes of black people, so there's no reason to think the same people would raise their pitchforks over Valyrians being black.

[thewolfofStarfall]

17 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I said it would not have mattered to me what color anyone was. It actually sounds a great idea if done properly and not hidden away from the obvious consequences that would have arisen as a result.  Making the most prestigious people black would have had a trickle down effect on the race of the nobility 300 years later while all the serfdom was white would have brought a level of racism into it which is not currently in the series. Ignoring such a thing would have cheapened the book, made it a dumb gimmick rather than an actual great idea.

Your idea of simply having the Targaryens and Valyrians as black and everything else the same is naive. Dragons and White walkers aside the strength of the series has been in its relative realism (as much as a fantasy fiction series can be), by ignoring racism that would have resulted from the super powers of the Planatos being black would have weakened the series as a whole. By making being 'black' or mixed race a recessive gene in their world would have been insulting.

 

I'm black and I find absolutely nothing insulting  in the last statement. Being "black" whatever that means would not in of itself be a resssesive gene. The Summer Islanders would still have their features and my guess is that they're features would be stronger if they were ever crossed with an Andals or First Men. However, when the Valyrian appearance of medium to dark skin paired with silver hair and purple eyes is crossed with the Andals or First Men, it is likely the offspring will not look Valyrian.  This is already how it works in the series. The main reason I believe GRRM would  go this route is to hide R+L=J, however I decided to bring it up to counter you're dark skinned people w/ power = high fantasy reverse racism nonsense. Genetics is ASIOAF is intrinsically unrealistic. GRRM has stated it is more magical than scientific. Therefore, you're "realism" argument is null. For example, how have the Lannisters kept their respective looks for millennia even though they have intermarried into other houses? 

Lastly, your're argument during this entire thread is based on the assumption that racism is a biological phenomenon and if the "superpower" in a fantasy world (even though the Valyrians were by far not the only advanced society, and in the actual current events of the series they are no longer a superpower) look a certain way, racism must be the logical implication, rather than racism being a socially invented concept. I find this kind of rhetoric ridiculous. The @NorthGirl has pointed out this fallacy excellently, and you have insisted anyone who disagrees with these assertions is naive, thus I will no longer being taking the time to argue with such a sentiment on this thread.

[Lointain]

The really important questions are:
- Braavosi bankers: are they the Lost Tribe of Israel teleported by aliens (teenage aliens during their Hallowen) to Planetos?
- Are the White Walkers just (very)angry albinos?
- Unsullied: eunuch soldiers or a massive transgender (without boobs)conspiration?
- Gays: In wich circle of the Seven Hells are they punished forever?
- The equivalent to Portuguese Slavers in Planetos: Ghiscari Slavers or Valyrian Slavers?

[Drekinn]

''Art is not a democracy. People don't get to vote on how it ends.'' - GRRM

[Lointain]

The really important questions are:
- Braavosi bankers: are they the Lost Tribe of Israel teleported by aliens (teenage aliens during their Hallowen) to Planetos?
- Are the White Walkers just (very)angry albinos?
- Unsullied: eunuch soldiers or a massive transgender (without boobs)conspiration?
- Gays: In wich circle of the Seven Hells are they punished forever?
- The equivalent to Portuguese Slavers in Planetos: Ghiscari Slavers or Valyrian Slavers?

[thewolfofStarfall]

28 minutes ago, Lointain said:

The really important questions are:
- Braavosi bankers: are they the Lost Tribe of Israel teleported by aliens (teenage aliens during their Hallowen) to Planetos?
- Are the White Walkers just (very)angry albinos?
- Unsullied: eunuch soldiers or a massive transgender (without boobs)conspiration?
- Gays: In wich circle of the Seven Hells are they punished forever?
- The equivalent to Portuguese Slavers in Planetos: Ghiscari Slavers or Valyrian Slavers?

This was a stupid comment

[thewolfofStarfall]

20 minutes ago, Drekinn said:

''Art is not a democracy. People don't get to vote on how it ends.'' - GRRM

I'm not sure what this thread has to with voting, but okay?

[thewolfofStarfall]

8 hours ago, lojzelote said:

To the OP, if you want statements like that, try The Realm of Elderlings books by Robin Hobb. She approached the subject very tastefully. I kept imagining Fitz and the Farseers as white since it is default for me, and then slowly realized they probably aren't. Theirs is a truly colorblinds society.

As for ASoIaF, I'm glad that GRRM with this idea twenty years too late. It would bring nothing but additional controversy if the Valyrians/Targaryens were black, while the rest of the Westerosi was white. I can already hear the screeching that GRRM turned poor blacks into slavers and conquerors, while the whites are portrayed as slaves and victims and how it is all white propaganda or some such nonsense.

Though I personally don't believe that this one single family and her court being black would in any way change the racial make-up of the Seven Kingdoms, as is discussed above. The Targaryens could preserve their skin color through incest, but once one of their daughters married a member of native nobility, it would take a couple of generations and her descendants would be as white as cotton. The Targaryens aren't like the Normans in that sense that they would almost entirely replace the Anglo-Saxon nobility with their own. The black royalty/nobility would be the Targaryens themselves, the Velaryons, the Celtigars, the Baratheons (though Orys looked different from Aegon and his sisters, no?), maybe the Masseys... contra all the noble houses of Andal and First Men heritage we have met so far. That's too few black drops against the overwhelming sea of whiteness, they would be quickly outbred, dominant genes or no (not taking into account GRRM's convenient fantasy genetics).

For racial dynamics and make-up of the Seven kingdoms to naturally change, he would have to make black either the Andals or the First Men, and which skin color would become more prestigious would depend on which of these peoples were originally black (but since both groups frequently interbred in the next few thousands of years, they would all be mostly mixed by now, even in the North, though to a lesser extent).

This. The Targaryens and there vassals were families, they didn't bring a whole new people like the Normans did. @thelittledragonthatcould assertions make absolutely no sense.

[thewolfofStarfall]

12 hours ago, NorthGirl said:

Disclaimer: not American and come from a country with 99% black people so I am not exactly in the same boat as some fans who are hurting for representation. Reading/watching western stories is the same as consuming East Asian media to me. So do not quote me to downplay the unease a subsection of the fandom rightfully feels about not being represented. Also I have very limited knowledge of detailed history of the regions covered in the saga so maybe my references are off but I tried to check using the Google.

 

That would be one small favour, lol. To be fair I don't mind it in the books because it fails miserably due to it simply not being her place to free the slaves. It's not that it can't be done, it's that Dany can't do it.

Also the two regions characterised by how sexual their people (especially women) are, so there is a point in bringing this up. Especially with the Summer Islands. GRRM is an American author in the 20-21st centuries in a country that had a history of denying black women their consent by saying that they were so sexual that they couldn't be raped. In the context of thinking about how that might be perceived (which I believe is the point of this thread), it's a little gauche (being euphemistic). It might sound ideal to you but the people of those cultures have suffered from being over sexualised so it would be a sore subject for them.

 

I find it funny that you repeat idiotic when the logic of your argument is hardly sound. All you are saying is that you don't want to think about race. That has zero baring on whether a story is interesting or not.

The fact that you think that making a group of the main factions a different race means bringing all the "real world" dynamics makes you idiotic. If you say those race relations don't exist in ASOIAF (and I very strongly disagree), then why would one group that actually matters to the story being a different race change that. Different races -or whatever you think they call it- already exist in ASOIAF. The Targs being black would just make characters more central to the story a different skin tone. They are already marked with physically distinct features, why would having a darker skin tone make them that much different? The Valyrians are already a different race from the rest, much more different in fact than real world races are from each other genetically speaking since magic and genetics are intermingled in ASOIAF.

Because some people think that race supremacy is a fact of life as opposed to dumb justifications people use to commit atrocities.

Basically. At least a person who doesn't hold on to ridiculous socially invented "rules" that only exist the collective's head would realise that it doesn't matter. But some people don't realise. They think melanin is the cause of behavioural patterns as opposed to you know, how a society treats its people.

I'm most certainly in the minority but there is nothing intrinsically believable or relatable about super pale people ruling over less pale people. Just like I find it extremely weird that people believe western societies know more about being democratic and have much to teach others. But hey, in my country, everyone in power is black so after moving to a country where there is more diversity, I just came to the conclusion that the ruling class ethnic breakdown should reflect the ruled class ethnic breakdown because that just makes sense to me. #shrug

 

Back to the OP's question: I don't know because I am not part of the author's demographic or culture nor am I part of what I assume was the target audience demographic.

There are my two thoughts:

1- GRRM is a contemporary author with an established history of fantasy preceding him that he draws inspiration from, be it to emulate or go against. He is an American author so his cultural influences will be Eurocentric. Seeing as he studied medieval history it makes sense that should he want to develop a strong rich political intrigue in his fantasy setting, he would start with -as cliché as it sounds- what he knows. He has talked about how his story is in times an answer to certain tropes he didn't like; the erasure of social and political consequences past the adventures that lead to such and such being a ruler. He made a deliberate choice to model his world after one that is familiar and known to his prospective audience. In such a case, there is no need to deviate from what the expected demographics of such a world would be and its not much of a missed opportunity when you look at the parameters he set for his world to explore what he wanted to explore. The caveat of course is: why do the Valyrians need to look distinct in a way beyond what "real" humans don't. They could have just had rare features and ride dragons. Or only have their features changes when using or in the presence of magic. But I guess that's why the concept of super duper special looking magical races were born, right? Because how special are white people amongst other white people lookwise. 

2- GRRM is a contemporary author who is American. He has lived his whole life in a country that has a relatively high ethnic diversity. It's not just that his world as first established is super Western European and white, it's super British Isles centric when not in the exotic far lands with the brown people. It started with the war of the roses, and there is little that is explicitly linked to other noble figures the same way we know who Lancasters and Yorks are. I can't think of Russian, German or Spanish figures in the text. While the original set up being quite narrow can be excused as the story goes beyond its original borders, we hit a few problems before and after we leave westeros. a) if only having European looking characters is fine, why have these random black characters that are parodies (Chataya and her brothel, the loser prince that just sounds fucking ridiculous)? And once we leave Westeros, why is the non-European parallel (especially in the areas where the characters would clearly read as non-white) ripping off cultures more than a millennium behind the time period that inspired Westeros? You could bring up the fact that Essos seems to be more technologically advanced in some cases but that's not contradictory as western medieval Europe actually fell behind in science and technology after the fall of the western Roman Empire. So that still means that basing Essos on Ancient Greece, Rome and older Asia Minor cultures is putting these non-white coded people behind the curve compared to Westeros and on top of that, give what a modern western audience considers to be barbaric practices and practicing slavery. It does become a problem and in fact goes against the realism to want to exploit those exoticised cultures, to only take from the part of their history that shows them at a culturally repulsive time for a western audience. Why not adapt Essos as like the Ottoman Empire in its glory days? Or if we are mix matching time periods, why not have the summer isles be Egypt during the New Empire at its apogee? Either because he didn't think of it or it didn't suit his plot/mood setting needs. And both possibilities are problematic although the former more from a society at large point of view and the latter from the individual lack of care. If we are talking about missed opportunity, while I don't necessarily think that black Targs would have been the answers, considering where Valyria was, the historical parallel established for Essos and the rest of its population, it certainly doesn't make more sense for the Valyrians to look like proto-Europeans. They should look like everything but "white" as it is used in our society. So I guess he missed his opportunity to really push his desire for realism far enough because the only reason why people think it "makes sense" that Valyrians are white is the same reason why there needed to be endless debates before everyone realised that, yes, Ancient Egyptians were black. Because western society is primed to see whiteness as intrinsically linked with leadership and superiority. Anything impressive is assumed to be the default and here, default is white. Just like default in my country is black. He could have made a statement I guess if the Valyrisns were not white, or it could have started stupid conversations assuming he is racist or even more likely it simply would not have been the hit it is, let's be real.

i can say that because look how his books have progressively expanded their scope when it comes to discussing patriarchy and sexism, the book that has the most female POVs at once is generally the least popular. The book where he gives us more on Essos, the chapters are bemoaned and people deliberately don't try to remember the non western names of the brown people. Nevermind that Daenerys and Viserys are hardly common. 

I think whether it's a missed opportunity depends to how responsive the audience would have been to the alternative. I don't know about the US in the 90s but right now it doesn't seem like it would have done much in terms of impact. I personally would have not minded reading that book. That being said, I am happy with the books as they are but like I said at the beginning, I don't have a stake in it really. I think GRRM made some faux pas, tried to clumsily correct them in his auxiliary material but ultimately the books offer enough to me that it is not "worth it" to read them. I'm glad to see this topic because I think it's an interesting one and as long as we are not hounding the author, what's the harm in discussing it.

I agree wholeheartedly with all your points. I'm glad there are more reasonable, objective  people on this thread.

[YOVMO]

12 hours ago, NorthGirl said:

I find it funny that you repeat idiotic when the logic of your argument is hardly sound. All you are saying is that you don't want to think about race. That has zero baring on whether a story is interesting or not.

I do not think I expressed myself accurately because I have no real disagreement with this. My point was only to say that the universe contained in the books is as it is. It has its own race and culture dynamics and that the idea of brining in real world race, culture, gender or whatever kind of issues can do nothing but obfuscate the story. I think grrm has created a wonderful universe for us to enjoy. Thinking that he ought to have had more real world issues cropping up would be a mistake in my opinion.

 

12 hours ago, NorthGirl said:

The Targs being black would just make characters more central to the story a different skin tone.

and this right here is the problem. Maybe you are right. But Targaryens are not black. They are light skinned with silver hair and lavender eyes. The only reason to change that is to make it more representative of the world we live in. But this isn't the world we live in. The very notion of going back to revise race comes with motives that are squarely in our world and not in planetos. Every time someone has a notion that they are going to make something "better" by injecting some social justice cause they ruin it. Every. Single. Time. I don't need Westerosi affirmative action. The Targaryen's are not representative of you or of me or of bob smith. They are Targaryens. 

 

I think the most simple way of saying this is this: Planetos has its own complicated politics. I would like it if everyone would stick to them and not bring their real world nonsense in.

[YorEmixam]

14 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Your idea of simply having the Targaryens and Valyrians as black and everything else the same is naive. Dragons and White walkers aside the strength of the series has been in its relative realism (as much as a fantasy fiction series can be), by ignoring racism that would have resulted from the super powers of the Planatos being black would have weakened the series as a whole. By making being 'black' or mixed race a recessive gene in their world would have been insulting.

 

You really think racism has to happen in any society/universe? Does the Dornish hates all Andals because most position of power are held by Andals? But most of all, it's a fantasy story, a fiction, if George wanted to make Valyrians blacks, he could just as easily make his world colorblind.

The fact that you say racism would happen realistically says more about our world then GRRM's.

[YOVMO]

21 hours ago, RumHam said:

I don't think anyone was suggesting bringing American racial dynamics into the story. If Martin had made the Valyrians black I don't think the relationship between the Targaryens and the primarily Andal population of Westeros would change much. Just what sets them apart from the rest of the population people would have been different. There'd be no history of race based slavery or any of the other things that inform real world race dynamics. So things would be quite different. 

Yes, this is true. No disagreement here from me. However, Martin didn't make Targaryens black. He made them as they are. I know this because I read the books and there they were, all silver haired and purple eyed and stuff.

What I am questioning is the thinking behind saying he could have or should have made them black. Yes, if he did it would not have made a lick of difference....for the reason you have stated and more....however, seeing as he didn't, turning around and saying he could have or even should have is what brings in real world issues.

If it was a non-issue whether they are black or not why even ask the question? The fact that the question is asked is already bringing in prejudices from the outside world.

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Drekinn said:

''Art is not a democracy. People don't get to vote on how it ends.'' - GRRM

perfect. I love this quote so much. Never heard it before. Thank you for sharing.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

5 hours ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

Why "lol"? Having a race in the story that is not white, somehow is going to transform the entire series into one big racial agenda? Seriously, this argument is getting tiring.

Now you know how we feel

[thewolfofStarfall]

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Yes, this is true. No disagreement here from me. However, Martin didn't make Targaryens black. He made them as they are. I know this because I read the books and there they were, all silver haired and purple eyed and stuff.

What I am questioning is the thinking behind saying he could have or should have made them black. Yes, if he did it would not have made a lick of difference....for the reason you have stated and more....however, seeing as he didn't, turning around and saying he could have or even should have is what brings in real world issues.

If it was a non-issue whether they are black or not why even ask the question? The fact that the question is asked is already bringing in prejudices from the outside world.

Asking a question is neutral. Discourse is something that should be encouraged, not shut down. Also, why shouldn't people be allowed to talk about their thoughts on the series outside of the plot? For a country (assuming you and the other posters are American) so protective of its freedom of expression, it seems anything that goes against the status quo makes people bitch and moan and suddenly support censorship. It's honestly ridiculous.

[thewolfofStarfall]

19 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Now you know how we feel

The easier thing to would just move on to a different thread? I swear half this fandom is full of morons.