Did GRRM miss an opportunity to send a subtle message about race in ASIOAF

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Yeah, but the Summer Islanders are defined by their sexuality (as are the Dornish). And that's kind of a problem because POC are often oversexualised in media.

Everyone's oversexualised in media, not just poc. And the dornish aren't really poc, they are pretty much based on real-life spain.

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

And if writers are worried about unintentionally offending people, then the solution should be to research, to further educate themselves on the topic/people they are writing about.

Btw, this is not a valid solution, since people are often offended without much of a reason, especially nowadays. 

[YOVMO]

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Sure, nothing we say now can change the fact that GRRM did not make the Valyrians black, but that doesn't doesn't make this discussion useless. If there's a chance, however slim, that I've managed to get just one person to just think about diversity in media, then this will all have been worth it.

I am sorry, and I am sure there are other things that we will agree one, and even where we don't I am sure conversation with you will be valuable and interesting....but no, I disagree with you. I think that it is absolutely useless and, worse off, damaging to start thinking about diversity in media.

[RoamingRonin]

1 minute ago, YOVMO said:

I am sorry, and I am sure there are other things that we will agree one, and even where we don't I am sure conversation with you will be valuable and interesting....but no, I disagree with you. I think that it is absolutely useless and, worse off, damaging to start thinking about diversity in media.

Damaging? Why damaging?

[YOVMO]

12 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

Damaging? Why damaging?

I honestly do not see this turning into an honest exchange between two people but rather a chance for some insane kind of bickering. I am sorry, but as as far as I am concerned this topic is closed. Until next time....

[must needs the rushes]

I disagree , taking a noble and advanced mindset like true racial colorblindness and putting it in a world as backwards and savage as Westeros is a disservice, devaluing the social value such ideas hold.

 

[The Marquis de Leech]

Having the Targaryens as black would indeed lead to a predominantly dark-skinned nobility, so, yes, there is the difficulty of feudal oppression being augmented by a racial division: are those who want to challenge this hierarchy (the High Sparrow, the Brotherhood) not then engaging in racial conflict as much as class conflict? If one argues that the Starks were likely to be the white nobles (they largely kept to themselves, and in any case were from the colder part of the continent (Vitamin D and all that)), you specifically run into the problem of "black Rhaegar runs off with white Lyanna", and all the seriously unfortunate connotations of that - especially the accusations of rape levelled at Rhaegar.

The other way around this minefield is to just make everyone black - which comes across as a bid odd given that Westeros is broadly temperate, and derives from Medieval Europe.

Really, I think the option Martin went for in the books is the least headache-inducing. It's also probably for the best, given the orientalism on show in Essos.

[Hodor the Articulate]

6 hours ago, John Doe said:

Everyone's oversexualised in media, not just poc. And the dornish aren't really poc, they are pretty much based on real-life spain.

Did you just #AllLivesMatter this? Individuals of any race or ethnicity may be subject to sexualisation, but white people, as a group, are not*. When a white man is portrayed as being sexually perverse or sexually primal/animalistic, or when a white woman is portrayed as lascivious, sexually compliant, or using sex to manipulate, that does not reflect on their race, because it doesn't reinforce existing stereotypes - not so for POC.

The Dornish, with the exception of the Stoney Dornishmen, eat pomegranates, live in the desert, and have olive or brown skin with dark hair and eyes. Yes, GRRM drew inspiration from Moorish Spain, but the culture is clearly heavily Persian/Arab.

*and just to be clear: I'm only referring to Western media.

6 hours ago, John Doe said:

Btw, this is not a valid solution, since people are often offended without much of a reason, especially nowadays. 

So what do you propose, then? Carry on in ignorance?

5 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I am sorry, and I am sure there are other things that we will agree one, and even where we don't I am sure conversation with you will be valuable and interesting....but no, I disagree with you. I think that it is absolutely useless and, worse off, damaging to start thinking about diversity in media.

I'm kinda baffled as to why you think it'd be damaging. Surely, critical thinking is a positive thing? I mean, it leads to improvement, and everything can be improved upon.

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Did you just #AllLivesMatter this? Individuals of any race or ethnicity may be subject to sexualisation, but white people, as a group, are not*. When a white man is portrayed as being sexually perverse or sexually primal/animalistic, or when a white woman is portrayed as lascivious, sexually compliant, or using sex to manipulate, that does not reflect on their race, because it doesn't reinforce existing stereotypes - not so for POC.

The Dornish, with the exception of the Stoney Dornishmen, eat pomegranates, live in the desert, and have olive or brown skin with dark hair and eyes. Yes, GRRM drew inspiration from Moorish Spain, but the culture is clearly heavily Persian/Arab.

*and just to be clear: I'm only referring to Western media.

So what do you propose, then? Carry on in ignorance?

Do you have a source for poc being sexualized in general as a race? Because I don't think they are. Maybe it helps that I'm not american, but I've never encountered such stereotypes. 

I wouldn't say Persian/ arab culture is as open to sexuality or equality between women and men as dornish culture is. Neither living in the desert nor eating pomegranates makes you a member of arabian/persian culture, that's a very weak argument. Olive skin is a pretty loose term and often refers to mediteranean peoples in general. Quick wikipedia quote: 

Quote

Type IV coloration is frequent among populations from the Mediterranean, as well as parts of Asia and Latin America. It corresponds with moderate brown, typical Mediterranean skin tones. 

And a quick GRRM quote: 

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As for the Dornishmen, well, though by and large I reject one to one analogies, I’ve always pictured the “salty Dornish” as being more Mediterranean than African in appearance; Greek, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, etc. Dark hair and eyes, olive skin.

Greek, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, not Persian or Arabian. Of course there are some arabian influences as Dorne is, as you said, roughly based on (moorish) spain. Which fits better because mediteranean and latin people do have a reputation of being more sexually open.

I wouldn't  say just carry on in ignorance, but if you want to avoid shitstorms sadly you can't write much controversial stuff, because no matter how good informed you are, there are many uninformed people who will complain. 

[No One of Importance]

20 hours ago, YOVMO said:

It isn't about censorship. I agree that discussion is a good thing as is the free exchange of thoughts. However, a discussion needs parameters. If we are talking about Planetos we should stick to the rules of that universe and not conflate it with the rules of our universe. GRRM has gone to great lengths to give us a world with its own internal logic. The only reason to ask about changing the race of Targs is based on rules outside of that logic and embedded in the absurdities of our universe. 

 

I dont ask "what if trump/Clinton/whoever was from the winter village outside of winterfell" because that isn't a question that even makes sense.

 

while discussion is always a good thing, sometimes ideas are just plain foolish and wrong and need to be shut down.

But we are reading GRRM's work in our world.  We can't ignore that.

And I could not disagree more with your last statement, mainly because, who gets to make the decisions about which ideas need to be shut down?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 7/8/2016 at 4:29 AM, thewolfofStarfall said:

Well the whole realm would be predominantly white during Roberts rebellion. Unfortunately, in the eyes of some readers the  North, Vale, Stormlands, and Riverlands would be perceived as the "whites" and the Targaryens would be the "blacks". However, the aforementioned conception of a "race war" would be completely inaccurate, as they Reach and Dorne were Targaryen loyalists 

I cannot understand what you mean.

[RoamingRonin]

9 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'm kinda baffled as to why you think it'd be damaging. Surely, critical thinking is a positive thing? I mean, it leads to improvement, and everything can be improved upon.

I asked that poster to elaborate as well but they elected to abandon the thread instead. 

I've seen the movement for diversity in media criticized as "pandering": making these characters gay, Asian, black or what-have-you is all about money, not because anyone genuinely care about diversity. 

It's very confusing. 

11 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Really, I think the option Martin went for in the books is the least headache-inducing. It's also probably for the best, given the orientalism on show in Essos.

He doesn't have to include racism. He could have black Valyrians and leave it at that. No character has to care that the royal family is black. 

 

[Drekinn]

18 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

 

edit: Ignore the post. The thread accomplishes nothing but raise vitriol among everyone. Close it down.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

Damn, some of the comments in this thread from people legitimately pissed at the idea of discussing anything to do with race (and even more ridiculous, some clowns actually stating that race is a modern issue. LOOOOL!), and outright disgusted with the mere idea of diversity. 

Well, it's no wonder why the U.S. and the U.K and the fucking world really is going to hell in a hand basket.

[BricksAndSparrows]

19 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

So if you are going to offend someone, somewhere, no matter what you do, then what do you have to lose by making the Valyrians black?

He invented the people he is writing about.

What he has to lose is the artistic purpose of his work. A Song Of Ice And Fire is not meant to be a racial commentary. It is a fantasy series.

Quote

And if writers are worried about unintentionally offending people, then the solution should be to research, to further educate themselves on the topic/people they are writing about.

So you're saying it would NOT just be enough to make the Valyrian's dark skinned? GRRM would have to modify the Valyrian's (only after careful education and research, of course,) so they represent this group of real life dark skinned people? Maybe you can also tell us, WHICH group/culture of dark skinned people the Valyrian's should represent?

[Drekinn]

1 hour ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Well, it's no wonder why the U.S. and the U.K and the fucking world really is going to hell in a hand basket.

I live in Eastern Europe. You sure guessed everything is going to hell here. Except it's not. I live in Romania which is experiencing a fast economical growth, no terror attacks, and tight relations with NATO especially Poland. But hey, generalizations, am I right?

[BricksAndSparrows]

If the Valyrians had been black, there would just be another thread, in place of this one asking why the Starks weren't black.

The Targaryen's have the most fucked up family values in the realm. Imagine if Aegon the unworthy was a great big fat black man, who sired an army of illegitimate children who nearly tore the realm apart. That would be an extremely accurate caricature of the accusations made by white supremacists. I think I might be offended at that point myself.

Any third rate blogger could have a field day with that.

Let's start trying to make changes in the real world and then we can get to the imaginary ones.
 

 

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

So you're saying it would NOT just be enough to make the Valyrian's dark skinned? GRRM would have to modify the Valyrian's (only after careful education and research, of course,) so they represent this group of real life dark skinned people? Maybe you can also tell us, WHICH group/culture of dark skinned people the Valyrian's should represent?

Well, they should be asexual to avoid sexualizing them. 

The white people should be asexual too to avoid white-washing beauty ideals by describing their bodies in such a manner. 

Fun topic.

[Crixus]

I think this is a good topic and like some others, I'm surprised at such vehement reactions against merely discussing an idea that Martin has himself brought up. 

 

Actually, I'm not surprised at all. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

16 hours ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Damn, some of the comments in this thread from people legitimately pissed at the idea of discussing anything to do with race (and even more ridiculous, some clowns actually stating that race is a modern issue. LOOOOL!), and outright disgusted with the mere idea of diversity. 

1 hour ago, Crixus said:

I think this is a good topic and like some others, I'm surprised at such vehement reactions against merely discussing an idea that Martin has himself brought up. 

 

Actually, I'm not surprised at all. 

I keep on seeing comments like these. Show me an online thread that doesn't get heated. You should have been there when I said that Robert Baratheon was overrated and less of a fighter than the Red Viper of Dorne. I think there is an underlying accusation of racism here.

I would have enjoyed the books just as much if the characters were black. If that would make the books more enjoyable for other readers, all the better. But some of the posters here (namely @Hodor the Articulate ) are not simply asking for black Targaryens. They are asking that the author carefully "research" black Americans in order to write the characters in such a way to show a positive depiction of black people.

Quote

" When a white man is portrayed as being sexually perverse or sexually primal/animalistic, or when a white woman is portrayed as lascivious, sexually compliant, or using sex to manipulate, that does not reflect on their race, because it doesn't reinforce existing stereotypes - not so for POC. "

If GRRM were to make Aegon the Unworthy a black man, then he would be reinforcing a negative black stereotype. So now the story must be changed.

But the criticism and suggested revision does not end at Valyrians, because some of the posters have an issue with the Dornish and Summer Islanders. These characters are said to be overly sexual, which is funny because the Targaryens are so strongly associated with sexuality, from their incest to polygamy and promiscuity they are nearly defined by their sexuality.