Did GRRM miss an opportunity to send a subtle message about race in ASIOAF

[Orphalesion]

First of all I must apologize, I'm a white Australian who was born in Europe and we are savages when it comes to PC.

But what I find interesting on this idea is that for all their faults the Targaryens are held as paragons of beauty by large parts of Westeors. Now if they had been of dark African skin (the equivalent of real world African) but they were still held as paragons of beauty by the Westerosi, this would make an interesting contrast to how (and here people might get upset as much as they want, it's still true!) many Medieval and Early Modern Europeans viewed African people. As in generally less attractive or on occasion monstrous.

So it would be interesting to see how Martin would adapt Mediveal language to give dark skin the desirability and status it would have with this connection to the royal family and Old Valyria.

Cersei would pine for her "Dark Prince Raehgar, with hair like jet"?. Would Daenerys be called "Fair as the Night itself"? Would "dark" and "black" have a much more positive meanings than in real life Medieval languages?

Might the Wildlings, Ironborn and even the Starks be seen as "Pale Savages with sickly looking skin" because they have never mixed much ith the Targaryens? 

I don't think RR would have been an issue, Robert himself might have been much darker considering his Targaryen ancestry. And for all his many, many, many, many *takes breath* many faults, the Realm was largely at peace under his reign. And many of th emost cruel characters (Cersei, Joffrey, the Mountain, Ramsay) would still be white.

And I know this isn't the show forum, but the most important thing: it would have saved us from Emilia Clarke butchering Daenerys.

[Joy Hill]

I personally don't understand the desire for "representation". Is it so difficult to identify with a character just because their skin color is different? Is it the same with eye color, hair color, height, weight? If a fantasy world is based on medieval Europe, chances are you'll picture mostly "white" characters. If you make up a fantasy world with samurais, ninjas and yokais and where people wear kimonos, you'll probably picture asian characters. Of course, there's nothing wrong in subverting that, but I don't see what good it would do either.

And like someone has already said, I don't think the Valyrians are meant to represent "white" people. They're meant to look alien, different from any ethnicity from the real world. 

However, I agree that the Valyrians look too Mary Sueish. They might have annoyed me a little bit less if they simply look like regular black-skinned humans (but because of my personal dislike of Valyrians, I tend to be glad that they don't represent any group from the real world).

[Dofs]

This thread alone is unpleasant to read, now imagine a topic of, for example, who is a rightful ruler of Westeros, a black Daenerys or white Stannis? I almost see all the accusations of "racist" and "SJW" being thrown around instead of having a civil discussion. Today's society is too obsessed with race, so if an author doesn't want to make a racial commentary, then having white vs black wars is not a good idea because the society will find such commentary even where there is none and this discussion will overshadow everything else.

[Orphalesion]

42 minutes ago, Dofs said:

This thread alone is unpleasant to read, now imagine a topic of, for example, who is a rightful ruler of Westeros, a black Daenerys or white Stannis? I almost see all the accusations of "racist" and "SJW" being thrown around instead of having a civil discussion. Today's society is too obsessed with race, so if an author doesn't want to make a racial commentary, then having white vs black wars is not a good idea because the society will find such commentary even where there is none and this discussion will overshadow everything else.

 

It's really only North America though... not that other parts of the world don't struggle with it, but not to the point like the United States. And even as the story is you get people being called racist and SJW. The only way to avoid any of that would be to have a story populated only with non-descript grey-skinned sex- and genderless clones.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 hour ago, Joy Hill said:

I personally don't understand the desire for "representation". Is it so difficult to identify with a character just because their skin color is different? Is it the same with eye color, hair color, height, weight? If a fantasy world is based on medieval Europe, chances are you'll picture mostly "white" characters. If you make up a fantasy world with samurais, ninjas and yokais and where people wear kimonos, you'll probably picture asian characters. Of course, there's nothing wrong in subverting that, but I don't see what good it would do either.

Thank you for saying exactly what I was trying to say

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

It's really only North America though... not that other parts of the world don't struggle with it, but not to the point like the United States. 

 

2 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

I personally don't understand the desire for "representation". Is it so difficult to identify with a character just because their skin color is different? Is it the same with eye color, hair color, height, weight? If a fantasy world is based on medieval Europe, chances are you'll picture mostly "white" characters. If you make up a fantasy world with samurais, ninjas and yokais and where people wear kimonos, you'll probably picture asian characters. Of course, there's nothing wrong in subverting that, but I don't see what good it would do either.

Agreed. 

On 9.8.2016 at 3:57 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

So if you are going to offend someone, somewhere, no matter what you do, then what do you have to lose by making the Valyrians black? And if writers are worried about unintentionally offending people, then the solution should be to research, to further educate themselves on the topic/people they are writing about.

On a side note, I think that notion is racist in itself. With "properly educating themselves about the people they are writing about", if you're referring to their skin colour, right? But here's the funny thing, people aren't defined mostly by their ethnicity. 

[Orphalesion]

59 minutes ago, John Doe said:

 

 

On a side note, I think that notion is racist in itself. With "properly educating themselves about the people they are writing about", if you're referring to their skin colour, right? But here's the funny thing, people aren't defined mostly by their ethnicity. 

Yep. And in addition to that, how would one "properly educate" themselves about a fictional culture of dark skinned Valyrians before creating it?

Could be a nice twist, what if they aren't styled after dark skinned African people...but instead after dark skinned Indian people, Aborigines or South Pacific Islanders? :-P

[CalvoHobbo]

I read this thread from post 1 to Orphalesion above me. I admit, like some others, the topic title had a negative connotation for many of the reasons posted here, such as why is this necessary, but after reading it, I actually found it to be one of the most interesting topics I've read on here in a long time. It's unfortunate that the two people who had the most interesting arguments, the @thewolfofstarfall and @thelittledragonthatcould moved to the point of polite disagreement to offensive arguing. I don't blame either of you to be clear, but taken as an observer, you both made really good arguments for and against this idea. It's too bad that morons got in the way of the actual, meaningful discourse by challenging the topic itself. I think too much of this thread was devoted to what is and is not racist, rather than why or why not this idea would have worked. You two, and  a few others like @northgirl really advanced this discussion in ways that I had not thought of and I truly appreciated. With the internets come the trolls, and the worse trolls are the ones that don't realize they are trolls. There are probably thousands of threads on this forum. If you don't like the one you are reading, move on. Don't fucking comment on it or at least make sure you don't get updated on it if you do comment if you don't want to talk about it. Otherwise you are just an asshole.

I did actually enjoy some of the conversation about race external of asoiaf, but I think it's distracting from the main point as I see it in this thread of the Valaryian question. Though, I admit, I don't see how you can have one conversation without the other. As a mixed race person myself, I didn't really care about the subject of race in the story, but I like that you all showed me interesting ways that might make me care. 

If we go back to the the route of the question as I understand it, GRRM could simply answer the genetic issue by saying the traits were magical, kind of like some imagine Bran's greenseer abilities might be which would make them only show up in a character when GRRM thought it was necessary. this would probably be considered gimmicky by some like the Force answer to all unrealistic jedi moves and survival stories. Including the issue as a subtle, but relevant factor in nobility relations would be interesting. Not necessary to me, but I think if the story wasn't about that, but it was one more thing that adds to the complicity of the society, it would be interesting. ( I'd like to remind everyone though that the unsullied are not black. They are all races. HBO made them specifically non-white and apparently of the same ethnicity.)

So in the interest how the story would change, I think it would, and I don't know if thats good or bad. It would depend on how and what happened. A subtle mention wouldnt change the overall dynamics. A major centerpiece of society such as that placed on the patriarchal or matriarchal dominance in the society on the other hand would greatly change the story. I don't know if thats a bad thing. this is speculation. We all have opinions about it, but how do we know without anything to compare it to? Thanks for bringing it up. 

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think that the real missed opportunity is when the author went full orientalism describing the Ghiscari as caricatures instead of as, well, people.

[John Doe]

I think it's done to hide Danys faults more so that the reader is more shocked later on.

[RoamingRonin]

10 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

I personally don't understand the desire for "representation". Is it so difficult to identify with a character just because their skin color is different? Is it the same with eye color, hair color, height, weight? If a fantasy world is based on medieval Europe, chances are you'll picture mostly "white" characters. If you make up a fantasy world with samurais, ninjas and yokais and where people wear kimonos, you'll probably picture asian characters. Of course, there's nothing wrong in subverting that, but I don't see what good it would do either.

And like someone has already said, I don't think the Valyrians are meant to represent "white" people. They're meant to look alien, different from any ethnicity from the real world. 

However, I agree that the Valyrians look too Mary Sueish. They might have annoyed me a little bit less if they simply look like regular black-skinned humans (but because of my personal dislike of Valyrians, I tend to be glad that they don't represent any group from the real world).

You don't understand it because it's not something that affects you. You don't have to seek for representation because media like sci-fi/fantasy caters to you. 

If it's not so difficult to identify with a character of any race then there should be no opposition to a bit of diversity. 

Let's stop dismissing diversity because "fantasy worlds are based on medieval Europe". That only applies if we're discussing historical fiction -- which we're not. This is a fantasy story. No one balks at the idea of elves, orcs, and dwarfs. And while I'm not asking for writers to start including more people of color and other minority groups in their works, I will question why they don't. Especially in the year of our lord 2016. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 9/08/2016 at 11:05 PM, John Doe said:

Do you have a source for poc being sexualized in general as a race? Because I don't think they are. Maybe it helps that I'm not american, but I've never encountered such stereotypes.

A source...what, like academic articles? Books? Let me introduce you to my friend, Google. Here's a small sample plucked from just a quick search:

Yellow Fever: The Exotification of Asian Women

Bodies, Revolutions, and Magic: Cultural Nationalism and Racial Fetishism

Dangerous Curves: Latina Bodies in the Media

Gender, Race and Media Representation

The “Gypsy” Stereotype and the Sexualization of Romani Women

The racial stereotype, colonial discourse, fetishism, and racism

I don't think it's necessary to slog through dry academic writing to see that there is a tendency to objectify "exotic" bodies, though. I mean, even the word "exotic" has sexual connotations.

On 9/08/2016 at 11:05 PM, John Doe said:

I wouldn't say Persian/ arab culture is as open to sexuality or equality between women and men as dornish culture is. Neither living in the desert nor eating pomegranates makes you a member of arabian/persian culture, that's a very weak argument. Olive skin is a pretty loose term and often refers to mediteranean peoples in general. Quick wikipedia quote: 

And a quick GRRM quote: 

Greek, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, not Persian or Arabian. Of course there are some arabian influences as Dorne is, as you said, roughly based on (moorish) spain. Which fits better because mediteranean and latin people do have a reputation of being more sexually open.

So if I go outside right now, and ask people what people they associate with sand, they'll all say the Italians? The derogatory term for someone of Middle Eastern/North African descent is sand n*gger, ffs! And yes, pomegranates, olive skin and dark eyes/hair are very much associated with the Middle East region. That those individual traits are not exclusively associated with Arab/Middle East cultures/people is irrelevant, because no other culture is associated with all those things combined. It's also irrelevant if members of those cultures actually do have dark features, eat pomegranates or live in the desert, or not, because this is about stereotypes.

I'm familiar with that quote from the author. It only pertains to appearance, whereas I'm talking more about culture.

On 9/08/2016 at 11:05 PM, John Doe said:

I wouldn't  say just carry on in ignorance, but if you want to avoid shitstorms sadly you can't write much controversial stuff, because no matter how good informed you are, there are many uninformed people who will complain. 

But what is "controversial"? Having non-white characters? (But then, isn't the opposite also potentially controversial?)

On 11/08/2016 at 4:33 AM, BricksAndSparrows said:

I would have enjoyed the books just as much if the characters were black. If that would make the books more enjoyable for other readers, all the better. But some of the posters here (namely @Hodor the Articulate ) are not simply asking for black Targaryens. They are asking that the author carefully "research" black Americans in order to write the characters in such a way to show a positive depiction of black people.

If GRRM were to make Aegon the Unworthy a black man, then he would be reinforcing a negative black stereotype. So now the story must be changed.

But the criticism and suggested revision does not end at Valyrians, because some of the posters have an issue with the Dornish and Summer Islanders. These characters are said to be overly sexual, which is funny because the Targaryens are so strongly associated with sexuality, from their incest to polygamy and promiscuity they are nearly defined by their sexuality.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never demanded that there must be thorough research, only that, that's what writers should do if they're that anxious about offending people or being criticised. (Really writers should be doing as much research on everything in their work, anyway).

Aegon the Unworthy is not representative of all Targs, or all dark skinned characters. Daeron the Good, Alysanne and Aegon V, for example, are nothing like him. Moreover, there are several non-Targ characters that are like him, so there wouldn't be any implication that black people are lazy, promiscuous fools.

As for the Targ's sexuality, I might have conceded to your point, if the story didn't present their incest and polygamy as based on romance and/or politics, and not just sexual desire. Moreover, neither of those things are portrayed in a way that encourages the reader or the other characters to objectify the characters. This isn't true for the Dornish or the Summer Islanders, with their big brown nipples.

On 10/08/2016 at 10:28 AM, BricksAndSparrows said:

He invented the people he is writing about.

What he has to lose is the artistic purpose of his work. A Song Of Ice And Fire is not meant to be a racial commentary. It is a fantasy series.

So you're saying it would NOT just be enough to make the Valyrian's dark skinned? GRRM would have to modify the Valyrian's (only after careful education and research, of course,) so they represent this group of real life dark skinned people? Maybe you can also tell us, WHICH group/culture of dark skinned people the Valyrian's should represent?

No. As I said to another poster, above: writers should research if they're that anxious about offending people or being criticised. But most people have enough awareness that it shouldn't be necessary, really. The most important thing is to write the characters as people, and not a collection of stereotypes.

I don't see how making the Valyrians black equates to losing the artistic purpose of his work. How exactly would the change effect the major themes of the series?

[The Marquis de Leech]

7 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I think that the real missed opportunity is when the author went full orientalism describing the Ghiscari as caricatures instead of as, well, people.

Agreed entirely. There is an unhealthy orientalism about the portrayal of Essos generally. Not Martin`s finest moment. 

[kimim]

7 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I think that the real missed opportunity is when the author went full orientalism describing the Ghiscari as caricatures instead of as, well, people.

ita. Definitely, GRRM goes full-on orientalist in Essos, which weakens his story. Westeros is intricately drawn, its characters nuanced, complex, rich. Sadly there's no such thing in Essos, full of grotesque, one-dimensional villains and pitiful victims waiting to be saved. Its cuisine consists of puppy dogs and honeyed locusts. Its nobles are, at best, pampered and lazy. Its costumes are bizarre. Very disappointing, especially as Essos is, obviously, the "East," while Westeros is equally obviously the "West."

3 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

You don't understand it because it's not something that affects you. You don't have to seek for representation because media like sci-fi/fantasy caters to you. 

If it's not so difficult to identify with a character of any race then there should be no opposition to a bit of diversity. 

...

Diversity is great, and yeah, in a world full of elves and giants, including all types of people shouldn't be that much of a stretch. However, I think it's ridiculous to fault writers for the complexions of their characters. I do fault GRRM for Essos, as he chose to include it, and he chose to orientalize it. I wish he hadn't, for the sake of the story more than anything else. If he'd set only a little bit of the story there I could live with it, but with so much of it taking place there, especially in Dance, it just doesn't work, and it gets ridiculous. Quentyn's descriptions of the Yunkai generals are beyond belief. It's sort of like...dude, you created a TYWIN, and the best you can do for a villain in Essos is a fat slaver who keeps pissing himself? It's ridiculous.

[Hodor the Articulate]

13 hours ago, John Doe said:

On a side note, I think that notion is racist in itself. With "properly educating themselves about the people they are writing about", if you're referring to their skin colour, right? But here's the funny thing, people aren't defined mostly by their ethnicity. 

No, a person is not defined by their ethnicity, but their ethnicity is a part of their identity. So if you're writing about a pregnant bisexual Japanese-American nurse, for example, you might want to read up on pregnancy, bisexuality, Japanese Americans, and nursing.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

 

45 minutes ago, kimim said:

ita. Definitely, GRRM goes full-on orientalist in Essos, which weakens his story. Westeros is intricately drawn, its characters nuanced, complex, rich. Sadly there's no such thing in Essos, full of grotesque, one-dimensional villains and pitiful victims waiting to be saved. Its cuisine consists of puppy dogs and honeyed locusts. Its nobles are, at best, pampered and lazy. Its costumes are bizarre. Very disappointing, especially as Essos is, obviously, the "East," while Westeros is equally obviously the "West."

Diversity is great, and yeah, in a world full of elves and giants, including all types of people shouldn't be that much of a stretch. However, I think it's ridiculous to fault writers for the complexions of their characters. I do fault GRRM for Essos, as he chose to include it, and he chose to orientalize it. I wish he hadn't, for the sake of the story more than anything else. If he'd set only a little bit of the story there I could live with it, but with so much of it taking place there, especially in Dance, it just doesn't work, and it gets ridiculous. Quentyn's descriptions of the Yunkai generals are beyond belief. It's sort of like...dude, you created a TYWIN, and the best you can do for a villain in Essos is a fat slaver who keeps pissing himself? It's ridiculous.

I think the George made the Essosi terrible caricatures for a reason - the same reason why we have not yet seen Dany from any other POV in real time.

It's to make readers hate the culture and people of Essos (Slaver's Bay, actually) more easily so that we could cheer Dany on and thus be blinded as to her faults. It's easy to brush off the sack of Astapor, the idiocy of her "justice" in Meereen, etc, if, like Dany herself, we don't like the people on the other side. 

Otherwise, George has proven to be very good at characterisation itself. I don't see why he should have made the Essosi such over the top, crazies if he didn't have another purpose in mind.

Also, some of our biggest game players are from Essos. Iliyrio, Varys, the Braavosi, Moqorro etc are all really smart people with their own agendas. Hell, all of the Westerosi races (First Men, Andals, Valyrians) are originally from Essos. So Martin could have drawn them out well if he wanted to.

 

Sorry for going off-topic, this is an interesting question, OP and there have been good arguments both for and against in the thread.

[Crixus]

7 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

You don't understand it because it's not something that affects you. You don't have to seek for representation because media like sci-fi/fantasy caters to you. 

If it's not so difficult to identify with a character of any race then there should be no opposition to a bit of diversity. 

Let's stop dismissing diversity because "fantasy worlds are based on medieval Europe". That only applies if we're discussing historical fiction -- which we're not. This is a fantasy story. No one balks at the idea of elves, orcs, and dwarfs. And while I'm not asking for writers to start including more people of color and other minority groups in their works, I will question why they don't. Especially in the year of our lord 2016. 

This. Let's stop pretending ASOIAF is 'historical fiction'. It's not. He's taken a few cues from medieval Europe. He's also riffed off loads of other stuff, including earlier fantasy. Funny how dragons and white walkers and orcs and elves are all fine, but the mere suggestion of a darker skin tone for main characters is too much for some. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

9 minutes ago, Crixus said:

This. Let's stop pretending ASOIAF is 'historical fiction'. It's not. He's taken a few cues from medieval Europe. He's also riffed off loads of other stuff, including earlier fantasy. Funny how dragons and white walkers and orcs and elves are all fine, but the mere suggestion of a darker skin tone for main characters is too much for some.

Dragons and white walkers and orcs and elves are all part of traditional western European mythology and folklore. This is what people mean when they say it's natural that he (and other fantasy authors) should default to white people: they're the first people that would've sprung to his mind in that context. There's nothing sinister about it.

By the way, re: the bolded: are you still going to pretend that you aren't implying that certain people are racist?

[The Marquis de Leech]

2 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Dragons and white walkers and orcs and elves are all part of traditional western European mythology and folklore. This is what people mean when they say it's natural that he (and other fantasy authors) should default to white people: they're the first people that would've sprung to his mind in that context. There's nothing sinister about it.

Yep. I mean, one could have black people living in Westeros' medieval castles, wearing medieval-style armour, fighting with medieval European weaponry, organising themselves in a manner reminiscent of West European feudalism, dealing with West European dragons, et cetera... but if you're dealing with that sort of culture, the association will be with white people.

Never mind the temperate Westerosi climate; Vitamin D favours darker skin close to the equator and paler skin closer to the poles.

[Crixus]

Bu fantasy by its very definition as a genre allows for much mixing stuff/subverting traditions. Sounds rather silly 

 

@Illyrio Mo'Parties: not implying people are racist; I am saying that such ideas have the tinge of racism. Ideas=/=people.