SER SHADRICH, HIS ALLIES AND ADVERSARIES.. (Morgarth, Byron, Creighton, Illifer)

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, Nevets said:

No.  I (and Brienne) disbelieve Creighton's story because it sounds exaggerated and doesn't match his appearance, for one thing.  It's completely ridiculous and unbelievable from the outset.  Shadrich's story is quite believable and matches his appearance and actions (providing security for a skinflint merchant).

One of the reasons for Brienne to disbelieve Creighton is the fact that she never heard of these men, not just his age. Do you deny that George provides this as one of the reasons to doubt Creighton? 

[Nevets]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

One of the reasons for Brienne to disbelieve Creighton is the fact that she never heard of these men, not just his age. Do you deny that George provides this as one of the reasons to doubt Creighton? 

One reason of many.  The main reason being that the story is so ridiculous that it is totally unbelievable.  I just about literally burst out laughing when I read it.  I certainly never took it seriously, and I don't think Brienne did either.  However, even if you disbelieve Shadrich as well, it still does not add up to his being Howland.

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Nevets said:

One reason of many.  The main reason being that the story is so ridiculous that it is totally unbelievable.  I just about literally burst out laughing when I read it.  I certainly never took it seriously, and I don't think Brienne did either.  However, even if you disbelieve Shadrich as well, it still does not add up to his being Howland.

Thank you for admitting it, at least. Don't shift the goalposts now. You claimed there was no evidence whatsoever to doubt Shadrich's identity. I pointed one of the reasons to cast doubt on it.

[sweetsunray]

@bemused

Found an interesting quote regarding the "knight of the red chicken" that Ser Creighton claims to have fought.

There is a lord with a "red chicken" for arms who is part of Prince Oberyn's retinue when he comes to KL in aSoS. Tyrion, Bronn and Podrick are to welcome coming Prince Doran, and Tyrion makes a game of it for Podrick to identify the oncoming, flying banners correctly. He made Podrick study the sigils of Dorne and their related houses. But Podrick is too afraid to make a mistake, so Tyrion has Bronn be the eyes who describes the banners, while Pod identifies them. If he has 9 correct, he gets a reward. And one of the banners that Bronn describes is a "red chicken".

 

Quote

 

"A red chicken eating a snake, looks like."

"The Gargalens of Salt Shore. A cockatrice. Ser. Pardon. Not a chicken. Red, with a black snake in its beak." (aSoS, Tyrion V)

 

 

It's not actually a "red chicken" but a "cockatrice", a mythical creature - 2 legged dragon/serpent body with a rooster's head.

Prince Oberyn tells Tyrion a joke about Lord Gargalen on their way to the Red Keep.

 

Quote

This time Prince Oberyn did laugh. "A taste we share. Lord Gargalen once told me he hoped to die with a sword in his hand, to which I replied that I would sooner go with a breast in mine."

 

Obviously Lord Tremond Gargalen nor his men-at-arms would have been present during the Battle of the Blackwater. And Lord Tremond returns with Oberyn's body to Dorne. He's one of the noblemen who refuses to drink on Tommen's health. But they were present in King's Landing for the wedding of Joffrey and Margaery, and there was a fight with one of Gargalen's men at a pot-shop in Flea Bottom during their stay before the wedding.

 

Quote

"Any displeasure I'm feeling has naught to do with pease. I have Joffrey and my sister to displease me, and my lord father, and three hundred bloody Dornishmen." He had settled Prince Oberyn and his lords in a cornerfort facing the city, as far from the Tyrells as he could put them without evicting them from the Red Keep entirely. It was not nearly far enough. Already there had been a brawl in a Flea Bottom pot-shop that left one Tyrell man-at-arms dead and two of Lord Gargalen's scalded, (aSoS, Tyrion VI)

It seems to me that Ser Creighton was in KL during the preparations of the wedding at Flea Bottom and witnessed this or another brawl with Lord Gargalen's men-at-arms who wore his cockatrice sigil, which he - like the uneducated Bronn - identifies as a "red chicken". This at the very least points to a hedge knight/sellsword who is illiterate and never had much of an education. And it places him in KL before (during and after) the Purple wedding.

 

 

[Crashingwater]

For me, Ser Shadrich is definitely not Ser Shadrich, and I lean towards Howland Reed. There have been some excellent posts concerning this idea on this thread so forgive me if I repeat anything. Ser Shadrich's sigil is an albino mouse on bendy blue and brown. The albino mouse screams old gods to me (how many other albinos have we run across in the story?), and maybe even a rat cook reference, signaling a desire for vengeance for what happened at the Red Wedding maybe? The bendy blue and brown may be the rivers and lands he crossed as he says, or it may be symbolic for the marshlands from which he comes, earth and water. Howland is described as being smaller than 3 squires, all of whom were 15 and younger, despite being a man grown. Brienne describes Shadrich as being 5'2", and when Sansa bumps into Shadrich she says she could have mistook him for a squire, but for the wrinkles at the corner of his mouth, the old scar below his ear, and the hardness in his eyes. How many Westerosi men have we been introduced to who are this short? Brienne describes him as being cocksure with an easy arrogance that comes with skill at arms. Meera describes Howland as being strong, brave, bolder than most, and as proud as any man. Ser Shadrich tells Brienne that he is no tourney night, that he saves his valor for the battlefield, a near echo to what Ned Stark tells Jaime Lannister. Ser Shadrich reiterates this when he tells Sansa that he won't be jousting, "a mouse with wings would be a silly sight." We know that HR fought alongside Ned throughout Robert's rebellion and even journeyed south with Ned to get his sister back, being one of only two men who survived the fight at the Tower of Joy (Ned even credits HR with saving his life). A fight which resulted in the deaths of Ser Oswell Whent, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Arthur Dayne himself. Whatever HR's skill with a horse is, it's apparent he's a competent enough rider, and certainly a dangerous fighter. All this circumstantial evidence in conjunction with the literary sense it makes to have HR save Sansa at a tournament the same way Lyanna saved him at a tourney (as pointed out by blue-eyed wolf), has me 97% convinced that SS is HR.

 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@sweetsunray  Sorry it's been a crazy week and I haven't had time to respond to your posts until now.  Shella Whent at Rosby makes a lot of sense as does Olyvar Frey.  It's been speculated much about the Whent connection to Catelyn and through her to her children.  There's been mention of bats with both Arya and Sansa, but only with Sansa was the bat a part of her person.  (She thought she "swallowed a bat" and the rumor going around that she was a sorceress that transformed into a wolf with bat wings after the PW).  It's speculated that Harrenhal could go to Sansa as LF's (the current lord) only "decendant".  This part seems a little shaky to me, because it would require Alayne Stone to be legitimized by him, but considering "Alayne Stone" is a fraudulent identity would that not bring any legitimization or inheritance into question?  If other things we have speculated, if this goes the same fate as the Whitewall tourney where the host, Lord Butterwell (former master of coin) was exposed and lost all but one tenth of his wealth, LF might be exposed and lose just about everything.  The current situation is a powder keg as there are a few people who could potentially expose he was hiding Sansa all along:  Oswell Kettleblack, Lothor Brune, Myranda Royce, etc.  If the crown finds about about LF harboring a fugitive for regicide, he would be attained and wanted for treason.  So all this in my mind, doesn't make it likely Sansa in the future will be connected to Harrenhal through LF.

So maybe the bats aren't mainly about Harrenhal heirs anyway, but about meeting with Shella Whent?  But Rosby is south and close to KL, I'm not sure what would make Sansa go there unless there was already awareness about Shella or Olyvar being there and a reason to meet them, but how?  When Sandor is smuggling in Arya and Stranger into the Twins before the RW, he tells the knight that Stranger is a gift from "Old Lady Whent."  That seems kinda random to name her.  Maybe it is random and he just said the first Tully bannerman that came to mind.  Doesn't seem like there was any opportunity to know Shella Whent to make it not random unless I'm missing something.  The only other connection I can think of is Shella's husband, Walter Whent, was host of the Harrenhal tourney which HR attended.  The Starks would only be loosely connected to the Whents at this point because Brandon is betrothed to Shella's niece, Catelyn.  Until we have a lot more information on the Harrenhal tourney, we don't really know what kind of knowledge or connection HR would have to the Whents to even want to connect Sansa to Shella in the future.  It was LF who told Sansa that he had heard she had died.  So unless someone can confirm she is indeed alive, I'm not sure how she'd meet Shella Whent.  This probably isn't adding anything helpful.  I'm just brainstorming and coming up with more questions than answers.

And nice catch on the Flea Bottom brawl and the "red chicken." That explanation made me laugh.

@Crashingwater welcome to the conversation.  Think you pretty much got all the main points.  Now we're trying to step back, widen the scope, and figure out what it means in the larger story.

                

[The Sleeper]

Brienne's story arc picks up where Arya's left off, a glimpse of the life of the "common"folk of Westeros. Where Arya was exposed to the dangers they faced in the time of war, Brienne's arc delvea deeper in the aftermath and through her interactions we get to see their struggles, problems, aspirations and even their shortcomings and prejudices.

It does so for a variety of people. From the woman who made fun of her. Darklyn ancestry in Duskendale, to Septon Merribald, to the orphans at the Inn and including those who live by their sword like the hedge knights and the Bloody Mummers. After all they are men whose concerns do not touch the fate of the kingdom or the politics of the great houses.

Looking for hidden identities for each and every one of them defeats the whole point.

[sweetsunray]

52 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Brienne's story arc picks up where Arya's left off, a glimpse of the life of the "common"folk of Westeros. Where Arya was exposed to the dangers they faced in the time of war, Brienne's arc delvea deeper in the aftermath and through her interactions we get to see their struggles, problems, aspirations and even their shortcomings and prejudices.

It does so for a variety of people. From the woman who made fun of her. Darklyn ancestry in Duskendale, to Septon Merribald, to the orphans at the Inn and including those who live by their sword like the hedge knights and the Bloody Mummers. After all they are men whose concerns do not touch the fate of the kingdom or the politics of the great houses.

Looking for hidden identities for each and every one of them defeats the whole point.

But the whole arc is also about people using different identities or being misidentified all the time as well.

[The Sleeper]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

But the whole arc is also about people using different identities or being misidentified all the time as well.

How so? There is only Brienne's erroneous assumption about Shagwell being Dontos and she wasn't entirely sure about that to begin with. You may want to count the Hound but that he played no part in that arc.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

5 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Brienne's story arc picks up where Arya's left off, a glimpse of the life of the "common"folk of Westeros. Where Arya was exposed to the dangers they faced in the time of war, Brienne's arc delvea deeper in the aftermath and through her interactions we get to see their struggles, problems, aspirations and even their shortcomings and prejudices.

It does so for a variety of people. From the woman who made fun of her. Darklyn ancestry in Duskendale, to Septon Merribald, to the orphans at the Inn and including those who live by their sword like the hedge knights and the Bloody Mummers. After all they are men whose concerns do not touch the fate of the kingdom or the politics of the great houses.

Looking for hidden identities for each and every one of them defeats the whole point.

I don't doubt we do indeed see more of the aftermath of the wars, but I doubt that is the sole purpose of her arc.  This is subversion of the knight errant story where Brienne misses every opportunity with someone that turns out would actually lead her to her goal of finding Sansa.  We know by the end of AFFC, George actually wants Brienne positioned to meet LSH and the Brotherhood and take her story there.  Whoever Shadrich is or isn't, he still successfully finds Sansa not that long after Brienne meets him.  If she teamed up with him, even temporarily, she'd be there already.  She even gets a second chance to meet someone on the QI that could help her if she dug a little deeper.  We get these brushes with chance that the author wants us to see, but it's not actually for Brienne to act on.  Her journey is loaded with symbols that are actually sign posts to who would help her with her goal, but they are meant for the reader not for her.  Look at the pious dwarf she meets that puts her on the path to Nimble Dick.  He's very short, around 5 feet tall.  He's got a red nose.  He's a holy brother.  He favors the Smith.  He's dug graves.  Brienne wouldn't know the significance of that, but the author puts that detailed description for the reader to pay attention here.  He's a fusion of 4 people's distinctive characteristics.  Shadrich is around 5 foot 2".  EB has a red nose.  Meribald tells Pod he favors the Smith.  EB and Meribald are holy brothers.  Sandor is in holy brother robes and has dug graves.  If we know for a fact, EB, Meribald, and Gravedigger are all connected as holy brothers and are placed together physically and geographically, that leaves Shadrich so it is safe to deduce that he is also physically and geographically connected to the other 3.  Meribald's dog is named Dog.  What other character is so closely associated with dogs and has literally been called a dog?  Just to put a neon sign over it, Dog goes up to gravedigger and gets petted.  That's just what's glaring that the author wants the reader to see.  So no one is just seeing hidden identities everywhere.  This is very specific and we're getting beaten over the head with it.   

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

How so? There is only Brienne's erroneous assumption about Shagwell being Dontos and she wasn't entirely sure about that to begin with. You may want to count the Hound but that he played no part in that arc.

• She searches for Sansa, who is in disguise
• She begins in Rosby, where the identity of the ward of Rosby and claimants is kepts from the reader
• She carries the Lothston bat and is accused of pretending to be someone else (disguise herself). And in fact, that was exactly the reason that Jaime chose that shield for in HH.
• Ser Creighton's "red chicken" is a "red cockatrice"
• It takes Brienne seeing Pod 4 times before she gets it that he's following her: first she thinks he's from Rosby, then he's just some farm boy waiting in line, and finally she gets it, and when he tries to say his name Puh-puh-puh she thinks he's trying to say please
• She never gets that the pious dwarf was from the same sept near Maidenpool, where Urswyck handed her and Jaime to Vargo Hoat. Oh she thinks of the Bloody Mummers and that sept at the time as in (I know what kind of people do that), but she never makes the connection that the pious dwarf might actually be of the same sept and was hiding in his hollow, while she and Jaime were handed over.
• Brienne herself is often seen as a man by people because of her helm and armor
• Nimble Dick talks about a fool AND two girls. So it's not just Shagwell who is misidentified, but Pyg and Timeon too.
• Brienne suspects the rider following them in Cracklaw is Shadrich, but it turns out to be Ser Hyle (who by the way also rider a chestnut courser)
• Then she thinks the Hound who raided Saltpans has Sansa
• She never identifies the gravedigger is Sandor, nor recognizes his horse as a war horse until Elder Brother points it out to her
• She learns she's not following Sansa's trail but Arya's, who lives in Braavos as Cat of the Canals
• She wonders whether Willow is Arya
• She calls Jeyne Heddle "Sansa"
• She calls Gendry, "Renly"
• She asks what the BwB did to Dog, and Gendry tells her she killed him, meaning the Hound, but the Hound as Rorge
• Lem becomes the Hound

Sure, she finds out the truth "most" of the time, but only when someone else pushes her nose on the facts. The only person she identifies correctly of her own accord, almost from the get go, is the one who doesn't know his own - Gendry. It's not because some of the misidentifications get resolved during her arc, that they weren't part of her arc. It's not because you as reader know who most of these (emphasis on most) misidentifications or disguises truly are, while Brienne doesn't, that there aren't some characters in it that the reader misidentifies. Of course they are part of the arc, because she follows these as trails all the time. It's a running gag in Brienne's arc. Only a minority is who they say they are, or who somebody else says they are.

[sweetsunray]

36 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Whoever Shadrich is or isn't, he still successfully finds Sansa not that long after Brienne meets him.  If she teamed up with him, even temporarily, she'd be there already.

Good thing for Sansa imo that Brienne didn't team up with him. Brienne's the last person you want around Sansa, while she has to survive and keep her identity hidden, 'cause she's horrible at lying, thinks telling (scary) stories and singing songs makes a murderer, only recognizes a kid after seeing him the 4th time, and if he hadn't bumped into her in that alley, she probably wouldn't have recognized him the 4th time, and her plans suck. I love Brienne, but Jaime probably sent the worst undercover detective to find and hide Sansa. 

[The Sleeper]

47 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I don't doubt we do indeed see more of the aftermath of the wars, but I doubt that is the sole purpose of her arc.  This is subversion of the knight errant story where Brienne misses every opportunity with someone that turns out would actually lead her to her goal of finding Sansa.  We know by the end of AFFC, George actually wants Brienne positioned to meet LSH and the Brotherhood and take her story there.  Whoever Shadrich is or isn't, he still successfully finds Sansa not that long after Brienne meets him.  If she teamed up with him, even temporarily, she'd be there already.  She even gets a second chance to meet someone on the QI that could help her if she dug a little deeper.  We get these brushes with chance that the author wants us to see, but it's not actually for Brienne to act on.  Her journey is loaded with symbols that are actually sign posts to who would help her with her goal, but they are meant for the reader not for her.  Look at the pious dwarf she meets that puts her on the path to Nimble Dick.  He's very short, around 5 feet tall.  He's got a red nose.  He's a holy brother.  He favors the Smith.  He's dug graves.  Brienne wouldn't know the significance of that, but the author puts that detailed description for the reader to pay attention here.  He's a fusion of 4 people's distinctive characteristics.  Shadrich is around 5 foot 2".  EB has a red nose.  Meribald tells Pod he favors the Smith.  EB and Meribald are holy brothers.  Sandor is in holy brother robes and has dug graves.  If we know for a fact, EB, Meribald, and Gravedigger are all connected as holy brothers and are placed together physically and geographically, that leaves Shadrich so it is safe to deduce that he is also physically and geographically connected to the other 3.  Meribald's dog is named Dog.  What other character is so closely associated with dogs and has literally been called a dog?  Just to put a neon sign over it, Dog goes up to gravedigger and gets petted.  That's just what's glaring that the author wants the reader to see.  So no one is just seeing hidden identities everywhere.  This is very specific and we're getting beaten over the head with it.   

So three people who don't know where Sansa is or are looking for her and one person who is looking for her and finds her in one of the most logical places for Sansa to go to (after all Brienne herself was intending to go to the Vale) must then be associated? Because as you pointed out they have nothing in common?

 

48 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

• She searches for Sansa, who is in disguise
• She begins in Rosby, where the identity of the ward of Rosby and claimants is kepts from the reader
• She carries the Lothston bat and is accused of pretending to be someone else (disguise herself). And in fact, that was exactly the reason that Jaime chose that shield for in HH.
• Ser Creighton's "red chicken" is a "red cockatrice"
• It takes Brienne seeing Pod 4 times before she gets it that he's following her: first she thinks he's from Rosby, then he's just some farm boy waiting in line, and finally she gets it, and when he tries to say his name Puh-puh-puh she thinks he's trying to say please
• She never gets that the pious dwarf was from the same sept near Maidenpool, where Urswyck handed her and Jaime to Vargo Hoat. Oh she thinks of the Bloody Mummers and that sept at the time as in (I know what kind of people do that), but she never makes the connection that the pious dwarf might actually be of the same sept and was hiding in his hollow, while she and Jaime were handed over.
• Brienne herself is often seen as a man by people because of her helm and armor
• Nimble Dick talks about a fool AND two girls. So it's not just Shagwell who is misidentified, but Pyg and Timeon too.
• Brienne suspects the rider following them in Cracklaw is Shadrich, but it turns out to be Ser Hyle (who by the way also rider a chestnut courser)
• Then she thinks the Hound who raided Saltpans has Sansa
• She never identifies the gravedigger is Sandor, nor recognizes his horse as a war horse until Elder Brother points it out to her
• She learns she's not following Sansa's trail but Arya's, who lives in Braavos as Cat of the Canals
• She wonders whether Willow is Arya
• She calls Jeyne Heddle "Sansa"
• She calls Gendry, "Renly"
• She asks what the BwB did to Dog, and Gendry tells her she killed him, meaning the Hound, but the Hound as Rorge
• Lem becomes the Hound

Sure, she finds out the truth "most" of the time, but only when someone else pushes her nose on the facts. The only person she identifies of her own accord, from the get go, is the one who doesn't know his own - Gendry. It's not because some of the misidentifications get resolved during her arc, that they weren't part of her arc. Of course they are part of the arc, because she follows these as trails all the time.

We have in that list one person who is living incognito, false assumptions, failure to identify people whom she has never met before, Nimble dick only talking about a fool and passage for three and not who the fool or the other two might have been, people who are completely irrelevant and a delirium. So out of one person who she is looking for and his identity is actually concealed, everyone else is potentially someone else than they claim to be?

Brienne is making a lot of erroneous assumptions out of extremely partial evidence because of her natural suspicious attitude and because she is fixated on what is a fool's errand to begin with.

[sweetsunray]

29 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

We have in that list one person who is living incognito, false assumptions, failure to identify people whom she has never met before, Nimble dick only talking about a fool and passage for three and not who the fool or the other two might have been, people who are completely irrelevant and a delirium. So out of one person who she is looking for and his identity is actually concealed, everyone else is potentially someone else than they claim to be?

Brienne is making a lot of erroneous assumptions out of extremely partial evidence because of her natural suspicious attitude and because she is fixated on what is a fool's errand to begin with.

Actually Nimble Dick does claim the other two are girls. He's lying of course, just answering "yes" to a leading question by Brienne. But Brienne and Nimble Dick do go to the Whispers thinking a fool and two girls.

We have several people on that list living incognito: Sansa, Sandor and Arya. Of course Sansa and Arya live somewhere complete different. Shagwell does not give his name around at Maidenpool. And he hides at the Whispers with Timeon and Pyg.

We have at least 2 persons traveling incognito: the old woman in the horse litter, and Brienne herself. While she gives her own name, at times she leaves her helmet on, on purpose, and lets people believe she's a man, and first she travels with the bat, and later she travels with Dunk's arms, purposefully avoiding the Tarth arms, because she herself is believed to have murdered Renly. And though her lie is easily seen through, she does smarten up enough to claim she's looking for her sister.

We have several people who have abandoned their names: Elder Brother never gave his House's name did he? He sure wasn't born Elder Brother. Septon Meribald - well we know he fought at the war of the Ninepenny Kings and lost his brothers. But where does he come from? Which region? No idea.

I said that the whole arc is full of people being misidentified or using different identities. You reduced it to Sandor and maybe Shagwell, and completely missed the point that misidentification or being incognito is a theme from the first to the last chapter. It does not matter whether someone is only incognito for half a chapter, or misidentified for 5 mins in a delirium. The point is that it happens over and over and over again. It's the running theme. And yes that makes the likelihood that someone who openly declares himself to be hunting Sansa for a bag of gold is telling the truth very doubtful. The irony is that Brienne is a person who tends to take things literal and at face value, while the whole aFfC arc is anything but.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

53 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

So three people who don't know where Sansa is or are looking for her and one person who is looking for her and finds her in one of the most logical places for Sansa to go to (after all Brienne herself was intending to go to the Vale) must then be associated? Because as you pointed out they have nothing in common?

None of them has to know Sansa is in the Vale for a fact, but comparing notes can lead to that being the best place to start. EB has access to the news of the realm. He'd likely know about Lysa and LF's marriage and her death. Sandor would know LF is no one to be trusted and it's especially suspicious he is married to Sansa's aunt. He himself tried to take Arya there.  It's not that the Vale isn't an obvious option, but it's also having a plan to actually get to her and get her out that's the hard part.  The descent from the Eyrie for winter and the tourney provide the opportunity to get access to her.  As lowly hedge knights who don't actually exist as real identities, they 1) have a reason to be there and get close 2) hides the most recognizable guy in westeros who can positively I.D. her through a disguise and can gain her trust in complying with the escape.  3) can't be traced back to any location after they escape.  You can't guess where someone might go if you don't actually know who they really are. 

I'll stop grouping these men together when GRRM does. And he puts SS, Morgarth, and Byron together in AFFC and TWOW. He connects EB, Gravedigger, Meribald, and Shadrich symbolicly.  He places Dog next to Meribald who barks wildly when they cross paths with a fox. Shadrich is described as fox faced and with orange hair.  Dog is heavily associated with the Sandor/Gravedigger.  EB owes Sandor for messing up big time with the Hound helm. EB and Morgarth have red noses and same beefy hands. Both Sandor and Shadrich have associated a Stark girl with a bag of gold. On and on and on...

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually Nimble Dick does claim the other two are girls. He's lying of course, just answering "yes" to a leading question by Brienne. But Brienne and Nimble Dick do go to the Whispers thinking a fool and two girls.

We have several people on that list living incognito: Sansa, Sandor and Arya. Of course Sansa and Arya live somewhere complete different. Shagwell does not give his name around at Maidenpool. And he hides at the Whispers with Timeon and Pyg.

We have at least 2 persons traveling incognito: the old woman in the horse litter, and Brienne herself. While she gives her own name, at times she leaves her helmet on, on purpose, and lets people believe she's a man, and first she travels with the bat, and later she travels with Dunk's arms, purposefully avoiding the Tarth arms, because she herself is believed to have murdered Renly. And though her lie is easily seen through, she does smarten up enough to claim she's looking for her sister.

We have several people who have abandoned their names: Elder Brother never gave his House's name did he? He sure wasn't born Elder Brother. Septon Meribald - well we know he fought at the war of the Ninepenny Kings and lost his brothers. But where does he come from? Which region? No idea.

I said that the whole arc is full of people being misidentified or using different identities. You reduced it to Sandor and maybe Shagwell, and completely missed the point that misidentification or being incognito is a theme from the first to the last chapter. It does not matter whether someone is only incognito for half a chapter, or misidentified for 5 mins in a delirium. The point is that it happens over and over and over again. It's the running theme. And yes that makes the likelihood that someone who openly declares himself to be hunting Sansa for a bag of gold is telling the truth very doubtful. The irony is that Brienne is a person who tends to take things literal and at face value, while the whole aFfC arc is anything but.

Nimble never claimed he knew who the other two people Shagwell was seeking passage for were. He even told Brienne that he never saw them. Brienne herself wasn't entirely sure to begin with. She went to eliminate the possibility. Ahe convinced herself along the way. Nimble Dick never lied about it. He just went along with Brienne's supposition.

Sandor is living incognito and with good reason. Arya and Sansa are living under false identities but never appear in Brienne's arc. Sandor serves as a bit of irony as he is one person Brienne was looking for after her encounter with the Bloody Mummers and he was right under her face.

Brienne makes some attempts at discretion but being a six foot and a half tall woman all those attempts are naturally stillborn. And who? I mean the guards at Rosby, and the couple delivering eggs to Maidenpool never tell Brienne their names.

Septon Merribald and the Elder Brother basically gave confessions and rather extensive resumes. How much more about themselves are they supposed to tell? Or do you feel they misrepresented themselves? We pretty much learned anything relevant there was to learn about them.

Examination of identity and how much of it is an external construct is a theme in the series. Particularly as many characters are fugitives and are young trying out who to become. It is much more prominent in Arya's arc and to a lesser degree in Sansa's and lately Tyrion's. In Brienne's arc, a nice example is the Hound's helm and how in losing it seems to shed his savage personna while there are those willing to don it after him and they appear to wear that mantle as well. What we have here is Brienne grasping at straws and seeing people that matter to her personally to her hopeless mission.

Even if the case were otherwise, it is still not evidence that Shadrich is someone else than who he seems to be or that Ser Creighton is other than a hapless than a hedge knight with a penchant for telling tall tales. By that reasoning we could assume that anyone who appears in Brienne's chapters has a secret identity. The only reason Shadrich has come up is because he has further plot relevance. There is no need for him to be anything else than to have that relevance.

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

None of them has to know Sansa is in the Vale for a fact, but comparing notes can lead to that being the best place to start. EB has access to the news of the realm. He'd likely know about Lysa and LF's marriage and her death. Sandor would know LF is no one to be trusted and it's especially suspicious he is married to Sansa's aunt. He himself tried to take Arya there.  It's not that the Vale isn't an obvious option, but it's also having a plan to actually get to her and get her out that's the hard part.  The descent from the Eyrie for winter and the tourney provide the opportunity to get access to her.  As lowly hedge knights who don't actually exist as real identities, they 1) have a reason to be there and get close 2) hides the most recognizable guy in westeros who can positively I.D. her through a disguise and can gain her trust in complying with the escape.  3) can't be traced back to any location after they escape.  You can't guess where someone might go if you don't actually know who they really are. 

I'll stop grouping these men together when GRRM does. And he puts SS, Morgarth, and Byron together in AFFC and TWOW. He connects EB, Gravedigger, Meribald, and Shadrich symbolicly.  He places Dog next to Meribald who barks wildly when they cross paths with a fox. Shadrich is described as fox faced and with orange hair.  Dog is heavily associated with the Sandor/Gravedigger.  EB owes Sandor for messing up big time with the Hound helm. EB and Morgarth have red noses and same beefy hands. Both Sandor and Shadrich have associated a Stark girl with a bag of gold. On and on and on...

You forgot that a crab bit Dog's nose. You should get the Borrels into this. Oh, I know. As they make their daring escape from the Vale they fall afoul of a Borrel ship but the Hound kills lord Godric after taking a wound himself.

Do you want to count how many characters are descrbed as being ham-fisted? Out of the top of my head Marwyn the Mage fits that description. Yohn Royce is another. The big gnarly hands come with extensive weapon training. The red nose comes from drinking a lot. And frankly anyone would associate the Stark girls with a bag of gold. It's not symbolic. Lots of people would pay well for them for good or ill.

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Nimble never claimed he knew who the other two people Shagwell was seeking passage for were. He even told Brienne that he never saw them. Brienne herself wasn't entirely sure to begin with. She went to eliminate the possibility. Ahe convinced herself along the way. Nimble Dick never lied about it. He just went along with Brienne's supposition.

"Was there a girl with him?"

"Two girls," he said at once.

"Two girls?" Could the other one be Arya?

"Well," the man said, "I never seen the little sweets, mind you, but he was wanting passage for three."

 

Gooseprickles rose along Brienne's arms. "A smugglers' cove. You sent the fool to smugglers."

"Him and them two girls." He chuckled. "Only thing, well, the place I sent them, been no ships there for a while. Thirty years, say." He scratched his nose. "What's this fool to you?"

"Those two girls are my sisters."

"Are they, now? Poor little things...."

Brienne did not like the way his fingers played with that gold coin. Still . . . "Six dragons if we find my sister. Two if we only find the fool. Nothing if nothing is what we find."

Crabb shrugged. "Six is good. Six will serve."

 

"I am sorry for that. My sister is a girl of three-and-ten. I need to find her before—"

"—before some knight gets in her slit. Aye, I hear you. She's good as saved. Nimble Dick is with you now. Meet me by east gate at first light. I need t' see this man about a horse." (aFfC, Brienne III)

 

Are you near the sea, Sansa? she wondered. Are you waiting at the Whispers for a ship that will never come? Who do you have with you? Passage for three, he said. Has the Imp joined you and Ser Dontos, or did you find your little sister? (aFfC, Brienne IV)

 

I never said that Nimble Dick refrained from saying he never saw them, but it sounds like Brienne convinced Nimble Dick and Nimble Dick convinced Brienne. They're both under a misapprehension. Why? Because Brienne calls them her sisters. Nimble Dick doesn't know she's looking for Dontos or Sansa. It's a bunch of assumptions by the both of them of each other.

16 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Sandor is living incognito and with good reason. Arya and Sansa are living under false identities but never appear in Brienne's arc. Sandor serves as a bit of irony as he is one person Brienne was looking for after her encounter with the Bloody Mummers and he was right under her face.

And there's also irony in the fact that Brienne's wildly following random trails by chance in the wrong location for both girls. Whether or not they appear is irrelevant to the fact that she ends up searching for both, believing them to be at the Whispers or with the Hound, as an orphan at the crossroads inn.

 

19 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Septon Merribald and the Elder Brother basically gave confessions and rather extensive resumes. How much more about themselves are they supposed to tell? Or do you feel they misrepresented themselves? We pretty much learned anything relevant there was to learn about them.

I never said they misrepresented themselves, but Elder Brother abandoned his former identity.

21 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Examination of identity and how much of it is an external construct is a theme in the series. Particularly as many characters are fugitives and are young trying out who to become. It is much more prominent in Arya's arc and to a lesser degree in Sansa's and lately Tyrion's

Yes, it is a theme in the series. In Arya's arc it is prominent because she hides her identity explicitly, and Jaquen has none. In Theon's arc it's prominent because he doesn't know who he is. Brienne's arc is the one of mistaking and confusing people and their motives.

23 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Even if the case were otherwise, it is still not evidence that Shadrich is someone else than who he seems to be or that Ser Creighton is other than a hapless than a hedge knight with a penchant for telling tall tales. By that reasoning we could assume that anyone who appears in Brienne's chapters has a secret identity. The only reason Shadrich has come up is because he has further plot relevance. There is no need for him to be anything else than to have that relevance.

Nobody here claims there is evidence that confirms anything about Shadrich. We are however taking the hints and jokes of identity confusion and masking in the various forms it appears in Brienne's arc several times in each chapter of hers as a possible hint for Shadrich and explore "If Shadrich is not who he says he is, then who can he be?" And as a consequence who is Morgarth and Byron then.

Fine if you think Shadrich is Shadrich, but saying that Brienne's arc is solely about showing the war aftermath and only one person has adopted another identity in her arc is BS.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

You forgot that a crab bit Dog's nose. You should get the Borrels into this. Oh, I know. As they make their daring escape from the Vale they fall afoul of a Borrel ship but the Hound kills lord Godric after taking a wound himself.

Do you want to count how many characters are descrbed as being ham-fisted? Out of the top of my head Marwyn the Mage fits that description. Yohn Royce is another. The big gnarly hands come with extensive weapon training. The red nose comes from drinking a lot. And frankly anyone would associate the Stark girls with a bag of gold. It's not symbolic. Lots of people would pay well for them for good or ill.

Oh I didn't forget that part.  I addressed it here.

I know you're making a joke, but we can pretty much dismiss the idea that these animal symbols that come up in Brienne's arc are sigil based. They are descriptive of physical appearance or occupation.  Even Sandor = dog is not really used as a sigil, because he never wears his official house sigil.  He takes the dog more as a totem animal for his individual characteristics.  We have a physical descriptive of Shadrich being fox faced and one could say he's sly like a fox.  His sigil is clearly a mouse, but a mouse never appears in Brienne's arc, but a fox does twice.  Once in the mural when she's getting her shield painted in Duskendale and again when she's on the road with Meribald and Dog and the fox crosses their path.  In that said mural, there's 1) a castle in autumn (castle is said by the artist to be any castle and the TWOW chapter says it is autumn) 2) the fox 3) two sparrows 4) the shadow of a boar in the foliage.  "Sparrows" the term for the humble holy brothers of the Seven.  Why a boar and not a dog then?  Well, in it's literal sense it's a forest scene, so a domesticated dog wouldn't be with wild animals.  A boar is a big strong animal that digs up earth, and we see it's shadow, not the actual boar head on (pointing to the presence of Gravedigger, but his face is concealed). The Hound was supposed to be at rest at that moment, so temporarily the dog is gone.  When Meribald reaches the QI with Dog and the GD pets him, we have re-connection with the dog.  If we're being consistent in analyzing our symbols in the context where they are given, we can't just switch between sigils and descriptive willy nilly when we can clearly rule out sigils being used for 2.  Meribald and EB don't even have sigils as they abandoned those long ago and their occupation as holy brothers is their primary affiliation.  So then if we're looking to animals again as descriptive, we have the clams given by the three women who embody the Maiden, Mother, and Crone and the crab that is plucked up by Dog.  Clams are a tongue-in-cheek reference to female genitalia and shelled sea creatures especially the crab are traditional symbols of the moon, which in mythology is a goddess.  This symbolic goddess association is true in real life and in book mythology ("Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known.").  This makes it highly likely we are looking at a crab as a symbol of a literal female and one that already has ties to the feminine aspects of the Seven.  

It's not enough on it's own to point to the size of his hands as concrete evidence Morgarth = EB.  We have to look at who fits that description that is plausibly geographically close and would have motive or even the flimsiest association with the other men.  Marwyn the Mage?  He's confirmed by Sam V, AFFC to be in Old Town.  Unless he can teleport he's very far away.  Yohn Royce? Everyone knows exactly what he looks like, who he is, and he does not have a red nose.  You kind of supported the argument then you make it clear his hands are associated with fighting and the red nose indicates alcohol abuse.  EB says he was a former knight that did things he was ashamed of like rape.  It's very common to self-medicate PTSD and shame with alcohol, as we've seen with Sandor.  Which is another thing 3 men have in common.  They are all veterans of war and have been affected by it.  If Shadrich is HR, that is a 4th man with that in common.  

The bag of gold has mainly literal meaning, but if Shadrich is there to help, he means it figuratively.  Sandor was never actually going to sell Arya.  If he truly wanted gold, he could have sold her to the nearest Lannister or Lannister ally.  What he wanted was a pathway to join Robb's army to head south to KL.  He wanted a pathway to redeem himself and a way to go back and rescue Sansa, but that never worked out.  He's never been one to care about money, but the bag of gold the BwB takes from him really pisses him off.  The gold was his earnings from his heroic actions at the Hand's tourney, the first time he likely had the love of the people, and got a taste of true knighthood.   Those heroic actions took place the next day after he confessed his deepest secret to Sansa and she reacted with compassion.  To other people, the bag of gold is just a ransom.  To people that that want to help the Stark girls, "bag of gold" has a deeper emotional association.

Spoiler

Shadrich mentioned stumbling on a bag of gold to Alayne, right after she bumps into him and he catches her from falling.  Sandor is usually associated with catching Sansa from falling on more than one occasion.  This seems to be a hint of a helpful intent on Shadrich's part.  He's right behind her when she's having that conversation with Lyn Corbray and he's starting to get very hot-headed after she prods him a bit.  Corbray is a seriously dangerous man, so when Alayne bumps into Shadrich, he's already approaching her from behind.  Presumably he's been watching this exchange and may be subtly trying to intervene.    

                 

[The Sleeper]

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

"Was there a girl with him?"

"Two girls," he said at once.

"Two girls?" Could the other one be Arya?

"Well," the man said, "I never seen the little sweets, mind you, but he was wanting passage for three."

 

Gooseprickles rose along Brienne's arms. "A smugglers' cove. You sent the fool to smugglers."

"Him and them two girls." He chuckled. "Only thing, well, the place I sent them, been no ships there for a while. Thirty years, say." He scratched his nose. "What's this fool to you?"

"Those two girls are my sisters."

"Are they, now? Poor little things...."

Brienne did not like the way his fingers played with that gold coin. Still . . . "Six dragons if we find my sister. Two if we only find the fool. Nothing if nothing is what we find."

Crabb shrugged. "Six is good. Six will serve."

 

"I am sorry for that. My sister is a girl of three-and-ten. I need to find her before—"

"—before some knight gets in her slit. Aye, I hear you. She's good as saved. Nimble Dick is with you now. Meet me by east gate at first light. I need t' see this man about a horse." (aFfC, Brienne III)

 

Are you near the sea, Sansa? she wondered. Are you waiting at the Whispers for a ship that will never come? Who do you have with you? Passage for three, he said. Has the Imp joined you and Ser Dontos, or did you find your little sister? (aFfC, Brienne IV)

 

I never said that Nimble Dick refrained from saying he never saw them, but it sounds like Brienne convinced Nimble Dick and Nimble Dick convinced Brienne. They're both under a misapprehension. Why? Because Brienne calls them her sisters. Nimble Dick doesn't know she's looking for Dontos or Sansa. It's a bunch of assumptions by the both of them of each other.

And there's also irony in the fact that Brienne's wildly following random trails by chance in the wrong location for both girls. Whether or not they appear is irrelevant to the fact that she ends up searching for both, believing them to be at the Whispers or with the Hound, as an orphan at the crossroads inn.

 

I never said they misrepresented themselves, but Elder Brother abandoned his former identity.

Yes, it is a theme in the series. In Arya's arc it is prominent because she hides her identity explicitly, and Jaquen has none. In Theon's arc it's prominent because he doesn't know who he is. Brienne's arc is the one of mistaking and confusing people and their motives.

Nobody here claims there is evidence that confirms anything about Shadrich. We are however taking the hints and jokes of identity confusion and masking in the various forms it appears in Brienne's arc several times in each chapter of hers as a possible hint for Shadrich and explore "If Shadrich is not who he says he is, then who can he be?" And as a consequence who is Morgarth and Byron then.

Fine if you think Shadrich is Shadrich, but saying that Brienne's arc is solely about showing the war aftermath and only one person has adopted another identity in her arc is BS.

I never said it is only about one thing. My argument is that assuming that men, common in the sense of being unaffiliated in the game of thrones, like sers Shadrich and Creighton, are in actuallity people who misrepresent themsleves and have hidden agendas undermines the theme.

The Elder Brother has reinvented himself and has become a different person. That to me is something very different than being misidentified or having a false identity, but rather about transformation or reinvention. His is not the only transformation present. The Hound is in the final stages of such a transformation. In reverse Lem dons the Hound helm as part of a long decent into savagery. Lady Stoneheart has transformed and also Jaime is following a transformation from the golden of Lannister to the White of the kingsguard. This is something profoundly real and I don't clump it together with false identities which in one form or another involve deception.

Arya and Sansa are also involved in a indirect manner. They are the objective of Brienne's quest but having never met them they have no personal significance to them. The emotional and moral weight lies on her oaths and relationship with Cat and Jaime and the conflict she finds herself in trying to uphold to both. There is also the theme in conjunction to that of the hero having a dangerous, dirty and thankless job.

What I am not seeing how ser Shadrich fits into any of that other than an opposite. On one hand you have Brienne throwing herself between a bunch of orphans and Rorge and on the other hand ser Shadrich who is basically amoral and looking for a payday.

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oh I didn't forget that part.  I addressed it here.

I know you're making a joke, but we can pretty much dismiss the idea that these animal symbols that come up in Brienne's arc are sigil based. They are descriptive of physical appearance or occupation.  Even Sandor = dog is not really used as a sigil, because he never wears his official house sigil.  He takes the dog more as a totem animal for his individual characteristics.  We have a physical descriptive of Shadrich being fox faced and one could say he's sly like a fox.  His sigil is clearly a mouse, but a mouse never appears in Brienne's arc, but a fox does twice.  Once in the mural when she's getting her shield painted in Duskendale and again when she's on the road with Meribald and Dog and the fox crosses their path.  In that said mural, there's 1) a castle in autumn (castle is said by the artist to be any castle and the TWOW chapter says it is autumn) 2) the fox 3) two sparrows 4) the shadow of a boar in the foliage.  "Sparrows" the term for the humble holy brothers of the Seven.  Why a boar and not a dog then?  Well, in it's literal sense it's a forest scene, so a domesticated dog wouldn't be with wild animals.  A boar is a big strong animal that digs up earth, and we see it's shadow, not the actual boar head on (pointing to the presence of Gravedigger, but his face is concealed). The Hound was supposed to be at rest at that moment, so temporarily the dog is gone.  When Meribald reaches the QI with Dog and the GD pets him, we have re-connection with the dog.  If we're being consistent in analyzing our symbols in the context where they are given, we can't just switch between sigils and descriptive willy nilly when we can clearly rule out sigils being used for 2.  Meribald and EB don't even have sigils as they abandoned those long ago and their occupation as holy brothers is their primary affiliation.  So then if we're looking to animals again as descriptive, we have the clams given by the three women who embody the Maiden, Mother, and Crone and the crab that is plucked up by Dog.  Clams are a tongue-in-cheek reference to female genitalia and shelled sea creatures especially the crab are traditional symbols of the moon, which in mythology is a goddess.  This symbolic goddess association is true in real life and in book mythology ("Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known.").  This makes it highly likely we are looking at a crab as a symbol of a literal female and one that already has ties to the feminine aspects of the Seven.  

It's not enough on it's own to point to the size of his hands as concrete evidence Morgarth = EB.  We have to look at who fits that description that is plausibly geographically close and would have motive or even the flimsiest association with the other men.  Marwyn the Mage?  He's confirmed by Sam V, AFFC to be in Old Town.  Unless he can teleport he's very far away.  Yohn Royce? Everyone knows exactly what he looks like, who he is, and he does not have a red nose.  You kind of supported the argument then you make it clear his hands are associated with fighting and the red nose indicates alcohol abuse.  EB says he was a former knight that did things he was ashamed of like rape.  It's very common to self-medicate PTSD and shame with alcohol, as we've seen with Sandor.  Which is another thing 3 men have in common.  They are all veterans of war and have been affected by it.  If Shadrich is HR, that is a 4th man with that in common.  

The bag of gold has mainly literal meaning, but if Shadrich is there to help, he means it figuratively.  Sandor was never actually going to sell Arya.  If he truly wanted gold, he could have sold her to the nearest Lannister or Lannister ally.  What he wanted was a pathway to join Robb's army to head south to KL.  He wanted a pathway to redeem himself and a way to go back and rescue Sansa, but that never worked out.  He's never been one to care about money, but the bag of gold the BwB takes from him really pisses him off.  The gold was his earnings from his heroic actions at the Hand's tourney, the first time he likely had the love of the people, and got a taste of true knighthood.   Those heroic actions took place the next day after he confessed his deepest secret to Sansa and she reacted with compassion.  To other people, the bag of gold is just a ransom.  To people that that want to help the Stark girls, "bag of gold" has a deeper emotional association.

  Reveal hidden contents

Shadrich mentioned stumbling on a bag of gold to Alayne, right after she bumps into him and he catches her from falling.  Sandor is usually associated with catching Sansa from falling on more than one occasion.  This seems to be a hint of a helpful intent on Shadrich's part.  He's right behind her when she's having that conversation with Lyn Corbray and he's starting to get very hot-headed after she prods him a bit.  Corbray is a seriously dangerous man, so when Alayne bumps into Shadrich, he's already approaching her from behind.  Presumably he's been watching this exchange and may be subtly trying to intervene.    

                 

The boar in this series signifies murder, upheaval and violent regime change. A boar gutted Robert which kickstarted the war of the five kings, Drogon attacked and ate the boar at the pit in Meereen right before making off with Dany, followed by the dethronement of Hizdar and the siege and prior to Jon's assassination we are introduced to Borroq and his boar who is the reason that Jon locked Ghost in. So you have convinced me that the painted door in Duskendale is potentially foreshadowing for upheaval in the Vale and that ser Shadrich will be involved in it. I already thought that, foreshadowing or not. The other bit of foreshadowing this could involve is the upheaval in King's Landing. There are two sparrows that Brienne came across. One is the one in charge of the group carrying the relics and the other is the dwarf who is beheaded as Tyrion and his head presented to Cersei. The former's description broadly fits that of the High Sparrow and him arresting and threatening to execute two queens, while having raised an army certainly fits the shadow of a boar. I will concede that Martin uses Dog to make us pay attention to things. This still does not mean that Shadrich is someone else.

Look at it this way. Sansa has a price on her head for regicide. Besides that her lineage, particulary in the absence or unavailability of the other heirs could be used to secure claims to the Riverlands and the North. The Vale is also one of the first places. The plot practically screams for people looking for a payday to make their way to her there. And hey we have them, three of them. Since Varys is not available and extracting her frommthe Vale will be exremely difficult if not outright impossible. I am leaning towards blackmail or abduction with the aim of ransoming her back to LF who has very deep pockets. And thus ser Shadrich and co become the cause of upheaval in the Vale.

[sweetsunray]

54 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

What I am not seeing how ser Shadrich fits into any of that other than an opposite. On one hand you have Brienne throwing herself between a bunch of orphans and Rorge and on the other hand ser Shadrich who is basically amoral and looking for a payday.

Because there is also a theme of trusting and suspecting the wrong people for her. She distrusts Nimble Dick. You could say that's because he "talks" so supiciously. Not really no. When you re-read the squisher's scene, knowing he was just being a good guide and did not suspect Shagwell to pose any danger, and was happy as a kid when Shagwell sticks his head out of the foliage, it becomes clear that Nimble Dick is trying to make this trip, which he believes to be a safe one, some camping adventure. Nimble Dick telling Pod about the Squishers is like telling each other scary urban legends at a campfire. Same for the Whispers. Nimble Dick knows well enough what causes the whispers, but the legend of the heads give it something extra. Brienne wants none of that. "There are no squishers! There are no heads!" Hell, she suspects him because he sings. Brienne's ability to read people is plain horrible. 

And her disapproval of having a good time, rubbs off on Podrick, who questions Septon Meribald, who gives him the necessary warning to stay off the mod. There is no cobbler he argues to Meribald, just like Brienne said "There are no squishers".

Ser Hyle: first she thought he had an "honest" face. He may actually have been the sincerest of the three men who started the game, as in, he may actually have courted her with marriage in mind, even if that was a marriage to the heir of Tarth. She is sure that he will claim to have slain the Bloody Mummers, but he doesn't. Then he resigns with Tarly. Sure, he says he made no vow about Sansa, and how she's worth a prize of money, but as the crossroads inn shows, he's not there to find Sansa. He joins her quest for her, well to bag a wife who's heir to an island and castle. He probably is eager to volunteer to kill the Kingslayer, not just for his life, but to be rid of an obvious rival as well.

Brienne is suspicious of Shadrich before he talks of Sansa, because he has a sharp nose, fox-like face and behaves cocksure, and calls her wench and woman instead of "my lady" or "m'lady". Incidentally he reminds her of Jaime's manner, who is after all the man who sends her on her quest in the first place. She disapproves of Shadrich before he said anything of importance, because of prejudice.

Brienne trusts Creighton and Illifer, because they're old and peniless, because Creighton tries to be courteous (but fails at that the next day), and they call her "my lady" and "m'lady", and don't rob or rape her. And while Creighton brags about the Blackwater, these two hedge knights say nothing of the Purple Wedding or the Trial by combat between Prince Oberyn and Gregor, despite the fact that the "red chicken" points to Creighton talking about a Dornish knight wearing the red cocktatrice of House Gargalen, and thus he was in King's Landing around the time of the Purple Wedding. She thinks the pair is comical and therefore harmless. But the whole exchange at the campfire with them suggests they are pulling her leg. "What's auburn like?". Illifer makes a dramatic scene about the Lothston bat, pulling out his dagger and accusing her of regicide. Strangely enough, Brienne does not make any notice of Illifer's voice turning menacing, acquires an edge, or that his eyes glimmer threatening. We get none of that. Either because it isn't there, or because she simply is bad at registering these non-verbal forms of communication. Anyhow, but just as easily Illifer shrugs and says "If she lied the gods will sort her out" after he made her swear so pompously on the 7 with Creigton commenting that she swears well for a maid. Creighton may come across as a baffoon, but Illifer certainly is not. He's 60 and has seen a bit of the world. If he believed her to have a soul blacker than a Lothston, a kingslayer who hasn't been yet sorted out by the gods, then how come he shrugs so easily at her swearing on the 7 and makes no issue of it anymore. And while Creighton can't tell the difference between a chicken and a cockatrice, Illifer knows which bat sign belongs to which House and knows Brienne by sight.

These are all "shady" characters: Nimble Dick is an opportunistic petty thief and deserter, but no worse. Septon Meribald is redeeming himself of using his status as septon amongst the village girls to bed them. Ser Hyle wants Brienne for her claim on Tarth, but he can admire her prowess and fighting ability as well as her womanhood. Shadrich is cocky and claims to hunt Sansa for money, but effectively and privately warns her to dissociate from Creigton and Illifer, just as she was thinking how pleasant it is to travel in company. Creighton and Illifer are courteous, but basically are having her on and she's never aware of it. They're likely not very good at hunting Sansa, probably worse than Brienne, which is probably why they thought, "Oh, this maid of Tarth is looking for Sansa too. Maybe she knows more than we do, and we might as well journey with her." Only a woman without a plan like Brienne asks people randomly to get any sort of lead.

She trusts Gendry and the orphans, because he looks like Renly and they are children. But Gendry already sent the alert of heart smoke out to warn the BwB they've got visitors who need sorting out.

Sure, Brienne knows what Rorge is NOW. Remember what she did the first time Urswyck and his men (including Rorge) came upon them, when she met Vargo Hoat, and dined with Roose Bolton? She offered "a hundred stags" to Urswyck and his men. To Vargo Hoat (of all villains in the book), she says, "My Lord, I am Brienne of Tarth. Lady Catelyn Stark commanded me to deliver Ser Jaime to his brother at King's Landing." And she does the same thing with Roose Bolton. She knows what kind of man Rorge is, because he tried to rape her. None of the above shady characters are Rorges or Vargo Hoats. If she can't make out that Vargo Hoat is evil on first sight, while he has his men practice bowmanship on a hanged septon, then you cannot trust her point of view to determine who is trustworthy and who deceveis her for what reason.