how does jon claim the IT?

[house of dayne]

being rhaegars son and heir to the iron throne is one thing, proving it as a fact to anyone who might care is quite another...for all those snow fans who think he will claim the iron throne, how exactly will he prove his claim to anyone? as far as i know, rhaegar made no will or mention of jon before he died...strange that he would ride into battle and not leave an official will to protect his plots at the tower of joy..ive heard conjecture that he might find the wedding cloaks in the crypts next to lyanna and while that may suffice as proof to some, it certainly would not have any legal weight...no one is going to give him the throne just because he found some keepsakes in the the basement...others suggest that howland reed will step forward and announce jons kingship...but he hasnt done it yet which makes me think he does not want to...and again, why anyone would believe his story over  lord ned stark is beyond me..and its not like howland has any special clout or connections to draw upon..my impression is, that he is backwater lord with little respect beyond his own swamp..i bet most southron lords have barely heard of house reed..and lord ned starks official story is that jon is his....so, assuming r+l=j is true, and i dont, and assuming jon is convinced of it and decides to claim the iron throne, how would he prove to anyone that hes the targaryen heir? he doesnt even resemble a targaryen so he fails the most basic eye test...its not like maury povich is hanging around with a dna test for jon

[cgrav]

Iron Throne seems like small potatoes if Jon is Azor Ahai. And given that the Daynes and some others have Valyrian features, even just looking Targaryen isn't much proof. Though I imagine there is some supernatural thing that only a Targaryen can do, like riding a dragon.  His identity will be proven through deed, which is a strong theme with Jon so far.

Unless Jon is going down an Aragorn/Elessar path, I'm not even sure he's going to seek the Iron Throne. And if Danaery's HotU vision comes true, with the throne room in shambles, will the Iron Throne have any real meaning? 

[Curled Finger]

No, I think this Iron Throne is a huge thing, particularly in Jon's story.   As most of us understand the Game of Thrones is the "b" plot in the overall tale.   Still, the IT is symbolic of so much in universe it is unlikely that Jon (Dany and Tyrion, too) won't have to deal with ruling all of Westeros.  Wedding cloaks would go a very long way to convincing the masses of Jon's heritage, but, like Dany and Tyrion, it comes down to far more than ancestry.   Jon should, in my estimation, fulfill the role of some legendary hero (I do enjoy the irony of his being The Prince That Was Promised).   That fulfillment requires the magics associated with both heritages.   He's going to have to ride a dragon and smote Others.  I don't see any of ASOAIF or its main characters having much to do with restoration--this is all reform story.   Having satisfied all the requirements of their legends no one will even care if any of them are Targs, Lannisters, Starks, women, bastards or second sons.       

[Julia H.]

I don't think Jon will ever claim the IT. Just because he finds out the truth about his birth, he will not rush to King's Landing to announce his claim. It would be totally out of character with Jon. If he ever takes that chair, it will be because the realm needs him as a ruler, and the crown will be given to him as duty and responsibility, not as a privilege. If this happens, it won't be because he is anyone's "rightful heir". It will be because he is recognized as the leader the realm needs. His Targaryen parentage will be significant in some way, but it won't put him on the throne.

[Fox of House McCloud]

He doesn't.

At this point, nobody is going to claim the IT with their 'birthright'. (Not that Jon has one anyways. Even if he is Rhaegar's son, he's still a bastard with no claims).

If anyone ends up with the IT by the end of the series, they will have taken it by force. Even Stannis, the truest heir to the throne, can only take it by beating everyone else.

[IceFire125]

Jon will not "claim". 

Just like the NW brothers choose him, the lords of Westeros will choose him as well in the Great Council to come.

“...I do not choose the road I ride.”

“No.” He could hear the defeat in her voice. “Sorry to be of trouble, m’lord. I only … they said the king keeps people safe, and I thought …” Despairing, she ran, Sam’s cloak flapping behind her like great black wings.
Jon watched her go, his joy in the morning’s brittle beauty gone. Damn her, he thought resentfully, and damn Sam twice for sending her to me. What did he think I could do for her? We’re here to fight wildlings, not save them.

**GRRM connects what Jon said, not being able to choose the rode he rides in, to a king keeps people safe, to Gilly wearing a coat like great black wings, finally Jon being hesitant to make the ironic statement, that he as a NW brother is not to save wildlings (which we learn later he did).

“Dragons will win the lords over quicker than ravens.” - Jace speaking to the black council (who sealed the Stark's alliance with the pact of ice and fire).

**We know that a black winged creature influenced the brothers of the NW to elect Jon after it mount on Jon's shoulder.  It is not the outside of the realm of possibility that the lords of Westeros will be influenced to elect Jon as King of Westeros after witnessing Jon mount on the shoulders of a much bigger black winged creature.

The Old Bear snorted. “Do you think they chose me Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch because I’m dumb as a stump, Snow? Aemon told me you’d go. I told him you’d be back. I know my men … and my boys too. Honor set you on the kingsroad … and honor brought you back.”
“My friends brought me back,” Jon said.
“Did I say it was your honor?” Mormont inspected his plate.
“They killed my father. Did you expect me to do nothing?

“If truth be told, we expected you to do just as you did.” Mormont tried a plum, spit out the pit. “I ordered a watch kept over you. You were seen leaving. If your brothers had not fetched you back, you would have been taken along the way, and not by friends. Unless you have a horse with wings like a raven. Do you?”
“No.” Jon felt like a fool.
“Pity, we could use a horse like that.”

**GRRM gave massive foreshadowing here about Jon via LC Mormont.  Honor (duty) set Jon on the *Kingsroad and Honor (duty) brought him back.  It was honorable for Jon to set on the *Kingsroad to join his brother and avenge his Father's death, it was also honorable for his fellow brothers to bring him back to the watch, to remind Jon of his "duty" to the realm.  The only thing that break this is if Jon has a horse with wings like a raven, similar to what a dragon is called.  

**It was also honor and duty that elected Jon to be LC of the NW.  It will also be honor and duty that will elect Jon as king in the Great Council, who is the ultimate 'appropriate authority'.

Granny: Is there any chance that Jon could be released from his oaths of the nightwatch?

George_RR_Martin: The great council would have released Aemon from his maester's oath, so I suppose it would be possible. With an appropriate authority.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

 

But of course, Jon's path is already chosen for him since the first book.

No doubt the boy had made the mistake of thinking that the Night’s Watch was made up of men like his uncle. If so, Yoren and his companions were a rude awakening. Tyrion felt sorry for the boy. He had chosen a hard life … or perhaps he should say that a hard life had been chosen for him. - Tyrion's thoughts on Jon while they are on the *Kingsroad to the wall.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

I seriously doubt that Jon would be voted by anyone to rule.  He is unfit to rule.  He deserted the Night Watch and had to be dragged back.  He committed treason at the wall and betrayed the greater good just so he can rescue Arya.  He is unfit to rule.  He will always place the welfare of the few Starks over the welfare of the kingdom. 

[Fire Eater]

On 8/7/2016 at 5:40 PM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

I seriously doubt that Jon would be voted by anyone to rule.  He is unfit to rule.  He deserted the Night Watch and had to be dragged back.  He committed treason at the wall and betrayed the greater good just so he can rescue Arya.  He is unfit to rule.  He will always place the welfare of the few Starks over the welfare of the kingdom. 

As to the first part, he ultimately decided to stay. His reasons for leaving were understandable, and he was a 15 year-old teenager. He didn't commit treason regarding "Arya." If he ignored the letter then the Boltons would eventually come to CB and threaten everyone there. He couldn't hand over Theon and "Arya" given he didn't have them so he couldn't meet the Boltons demands even if he wanted to. He was very low on options. He didn't get involved in fighting the Boltons until then. 

 

On 8/7/2016 at 4:03 PM, IceFire125 said:

Jon will not "claim". 

Just like the NW brothers choose him, the lords of Westeros will choose him as well in the Great Council to come.

“...I do not choose the road I ride.”

“No.” He could hear the defeat in her voice. “Sorry to be of trouble, m’lord. I only … they said the king keeps people safe, and I thought …” Despairing, she ran, Sam’s cloak flapping behind her like great black wings.
Jon watched her go, his joy in the morning’s brittle beauty gone. Damn her, he thought resentfully, and damn Sam twice for sending her to me. What did he think I could do for her? We’re here to fight wildlings, not save them.

**GRRM connects what Jon said, not being able to choose the rode he rides in, to a king keeps people safe, to Gilly wearing a coat like great black wings, finally Jon being hesitant to make the ironic statement, that he as a NW brother is not to save wildlings (which we learn later he did).

“Dragons will win the lords over quicker than ravens.” - Jace speaking to the black council (who sealed the Stark's alliance with the pact of ice and fire).

**We know that a black winged creature influenced the brothers of the NW to elect Jon after it mount on Jon's shoulder.  It is not the outside of the realm of possibility that the lords of Westeros will be influenced to elect Jon as King of Westeros after witnessing Jon mount on the shoulders of a much bigger black winged creature.

The Old Bear snorted. “Do you think they chose me Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch because I’m dumb as a stump, Snow? Aemon told me you’d go. I told him you’d be back. I know my men … and my boys too. Honor set you on the kingsroad … and honor brought you back.”
“My friends brought me back,” Jon said.
“Did I say it was your honor?” Mormont inspected his plate.
“They killed my father. Did you expect me to do nothing?

“If truth be told, we expected you to do just as you did.” Mormont tried a plum, spit out the pit. “I ordered a watch kept over you. You were seen leaving. If your brothers had not fetched you back, you would have been taken along the way, and not by friends. Unless you have a horse with wings like a raven. Do you?”
“No.” Jon felt like a fool.
“Pity, we could use a horse like that.”

**GRRM gave massive foreshadowing here about Jon via LC Mormont.  Honor (duty) set Jon on the *Kingsroad and Honor (duty) brought him back.  It was honorable for Jon to set on the *Kingsroad to join his brother and avenge his Father's death, it was also honorable for his fellow brothers to bring him back to the watch, to remind Jon of his "duty" to the realm.  The only thing that break this is if Jon has a horse with wings like a raven, similar to what a dragon is called.  

**It was also honor and duty that elected Jon to be LC of the NW.  It will also be honor and duty that will elect Jon as king in the Great Council, who is the ultimate 'appropriate authority'.

Granny: Is there any chance that Jon could be released from his oaths of the nightwatch?

George_RR_Martin: The great council would have released Aemon from his maester's oath, so I suppose it would be possible. With an appropriate authority.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

 

But of course, Jon's path is already chosen for him since the first book.

No doubt the boy had made the mistake of thinking that the Night’s Watch was made up of men like his uncle. If so, Yoren and his companions were a rude awakening. Tyrion felt sorry for the boy. He had chosen a hard life … or perhaps he should say that a hard life had been chosen for him. - Tyrion's thoughts on Jon while they are on the *Kingsroad to the wall.

I think the challenge would be posed to Jon that to prove he was he says he is, he has to mount a dragon. Dany would pose that chalklenge thinking he will fail and get himself killed. King Arthur had to prove he was king with a sword, and one version has him being given it by the lady of the lake. I think this case would be a subversion of the lady of the lake giving Arthur what he needed to prove he was the rightful king. Of course, I think it will ultimately be a Great Council that names him king as you suggest. He often has responsibility thrust on him.     

[Jon's Queen Consort]

He doesn't. He is named the King not only because people will see him as beloved Rhaegar's son, which is an excuse that will be used for the Targ supporters, but also because he is the man who will lead humanity during Long Night 2.0.

[Dorian Martell]

On 8/7/2016 at 10:25 AM, house of dayne said:

being rhaegars son and heir to the iron throne is one thing, proving it as a fact to anyone who might care is quite another...for all those snow fans who think he will claim the iron throne, how exactly will he prove his claim to anyone? as far as i know, rhaegar made no will or mention of jon before he died...strange that he would ride into battle and not leave an official will to protect his plots at the tower of joy..ive heard conjecture that he might find the wedding cloaks in the crypts next to lyanna and while that may suffice as proof to some, it certainly would not have any legal weight...no one is going to give him the throne just because he found some keepsakes in the the basement...others suggest that howland reed will step forward and announce jons kingship...but he hasnt done it yet which makes me think he does not want to...and again, why anyone would believe his story over  lord ned stark is beyond me..and its not like howland has any special clout or connections to draw upon..my impression is, that he is backwater lord with little respect beyond his own swamp..i bet most southron lords have barely heard of house reed..and lord ned starks official story is that jon is his....so, assuming r+l=j is true, and i dont, and assuming jon is convinced of it and decides to claim the iron throne, how would he prove to anyone that hes the targaryen heir? he doesnt even resemble a targaryen so he fails the most basic eye test...its not like maury povich is hanging around with a dna test for jon

He does not take the throne. In fact, he only goes south when humanity is pushed south by the others, where he will meet Dany, make common cause, realize they are related, still have sex anyway, she wil birth their child, both of them will die and their child will be  raised on Dragonstone. The 7 kingdoms will split and resume self rule  

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

He doesn´t...

Even if r+l=j he´s a bastard, and even if the marriage crazy lame theory were true there's no video footage in westeros...

And the royal house goes by House Baratheon of King's Landing until the lords of the 7 kingdoms and the faith pledge fielty to another house

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Even if r+l=j he´s a bastard, and even if the marriage crazy lame theory were true there's no video footage in westeros...

Crazy lame theory that is one of the most analysed and well structured of them all. They don't need a footage only someone who was present. It's not like if anyone would actually care if he was baseborn or trueborn since he is belove Rhaegar's son.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Crazy lame theory that is one of the most analysed and well structured of them all. They don't need a footage only someone who was present. It's not like if anyone would actually care if he was baseborn or trueborn since he is belove Rhaegar's son.

I'ts preety lame for me JQC, Jon is already too much "hidden prince type story", and realistically a person or a piece of paper isn´t enough for kingdoms and the faith to accept a kid of the north who never passed the neck... it's just too far out to be a great story trick, i expect that from amateur writers not george...

Jon is fine in the north till the end, that would actually make sense storywise to me

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

I'ts preety lame for me JQC, Jon is already too much "hidden prince type story", and realistically a person or a piece of paper isn´t enough for kingdoms and the faith to accept a kid of the north who never passed the neck... it's just too far out to be a great story trick, i expect that from amateur writers not george...

I can understand why you don't like it but that doesn't make it lame. What I mean is that there are many text proofs all around the books to point that way. However as I told, I don't believe that anyone would care if he is trueborn or not.

1 minute ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Jon is fine in the north till the end, that would actually make sense storywise to me

I agree on that one.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I can understand why you don't like it but that doesn't make it lame. What I mean is that there are many text proofs all around the books to point that way. However as I told, I don't believe that anyone would care if he is trueborn or not.

I agree on that one.

yep it's lame for me, i should right imo more often

i like the character, i do NOT like the way he gets to be a weapon against Robert like he was baby frodo saved from the dark lord... we already suffer that with Dany, but that angle i can understand one's enemy is another's ally, but Ned saving Jesus from Sauron by the pleading of mother teresa stark of 16 is stomach turning IMO

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

yep it's lame for me, i should right imo more often

i like the character, i do NOT like the way he gets to be a weapon against Robert like he was baby frodo saved from the dark lord... we already suffer that with Dany, but that angle i can understand one's enemy is another's ally, but Ned saving Jesus from Sauron by the pleading of mother teresa stark of 16 is stomach turning IMO

I agree with that.

[The Dew]

Why would Jon claim the IT, from a character development PoV, at least mine, he does not strike to me as a pretender. Didn't he enlist in the NW voluntarily, because I remember he did. He appears to have simple needs. I guess growing up as a bastard, and him feeling that his stay in WF could not be prolonged, because of the prevailing perceptions of bastardry and the hateful eyes of Catelyn, it is a wonder he did not join when Benjen joined the NW. Getting stabbed by your "brothers" because Jon did not abandon the Free Folk, if and when brought back I don't think that a perpetually traumatised person would be involved in machinations of claiming the IT. Should he trust others when his brothers failed him and ostracised him into the darkness of the void? His sworn brothers casted him out, finished him, while he was trying to protect the Realms of Men (a kingdom beyond the Wall, by its literal approach and interpretation appears to be a Realm to me that Jon was also trying to protect up to the moment he was stabbed, independently of the fact of recognition or not. To be more technical, and please do correct me, I do not recall the Oath of the NW making any specific mention about the Realms South of the Wall, or including any specific wording about "Recognised" Realms of Men). In my eyes, wrongly or not, Jon was punished by his Judges and Executioners but above all his brothers. Think of the tragic fact that it is not a death on the battlements, not even North of the Wall. If Jon lives why would he bother with the IT? I believe that if I die by punishment or betrayal through my idealism, I believe that if I had the chance of coming back the very idealism that killed me would have been erased from my vocabulary. Parentage or not, why would he bother for the IT? So that he could walk into the Dragon's Den in KL and unwantingly make more enemies? A person who willingly gives himself in the service of the NW during peacetime, without being under duress (famine, hiding from others etc) why would even bother? For the lifestyle of the South, that was not in him in the first place? Jon will not claim the IT. If and when he comes back I believe he will be asked to co-rule, and be a part of a ruling council or Triarchy, as I am a firm believer that AA is a figurehead and certainly not one person. 

[Scorpion92]

First Jon becomes King in the North in the next book, then he becomes King of Winter by defeating Others at Winterfell once they invade the North with Bran's help, then he engages Dany in the Battle of the Dawn with Three Eyed Crow Bran controlling undead and Uncle Benjen, his Lord Commander of Kingsguard, leading Others into the battle on the Trident. He proves his heritage by skinchanging and mounting Drogon and end the war with "fire" faction by marrying Dany - unknown to everyone except Bran, Ned and Ashara's bastard daughter.

With survivors of Battle of the Dawn behind him, Jon marches to King's Landing to bring second Hour of the Wolf (like Cregan Stark) to claim Iron Throne from Cersei and save his sister Sansa. Mad Queen Cersei holds Sansa hostage and threatens to kill her if they storm Red Keep, and Arya infiltrates the castle thanks to the tunnels she was studying in the first book with new group of Jon's Kingsguard - Jaime (Lord Commander), Brienne, Podrick, Loras Tyrell, Sandor, and Bronn. It all ends up with Cleganebowl, everyone involved in 7 vs 7 fight dying, Cersei succeeding with executing wildfire plot, her and Jaime killing each other, and Sansa and Arya escaping burning Red Keep and King's Landing on the back of Sandor's horse - Stranger.

Dany dies in childbirth, her body is burned by Jon, then (King Arthur) travels to Isle of Faces (Avalon) and gives away his last breath. Their son, Eddard Stark, "the prince that was promised", is the first of his name and founder of new royal dynasty of Westeros - House Stark. New capital, new royal seat resembling destroyed Winterfell, on the grounds of Harrenhal, "seat of kings", by Isle of Faces and god of this universe, Bran Stark. Sansa rules in little Ned Stark's name as Queen Regent with Tyrion, her husband, the Prime Minister of the new realm.

So yeah, Jon will never seat that throne.

[Light a wight tonight]

On 8/7/2016 at 10:25 AM, house of dayne said:

being rhaegars son and heir to the iron throne is one thing, proving it as a fact to anyone who might care is quite another...for all those snow fans who think he will claim the iron throne, how exactly will he prove his claim to anyone? as far as i know, rhaegar made no will or mention of jon before he died...strange that he would ride into battle and not leave an official will to protect his plots at the tower of joy..ive heard conjecture that he might the wedding cloaks in the crypts next to lyanna and while that may suffice as proof to some, it certainly would not have any legal weight...no one is going to give him the throne just because he found some keepsakes in the the basement...others suggest that howland reed will step forward and announce jons kingship...but he hasnt done it yet which makes me think he does not want to...and again, why anyone would believe his story over  lord ned stark is beyond me..and its not like howland has any special clout or connections to draw upon..my impression is, that he is backwater lord with little respect beyond his own swamp..i bet most southron lords have barely heard of house reed..and lord ned starks official story is that jon is his....so, assuming r+l=j is true, and i dont, and assuming jon is convinced of it and decides to claim the iron throne, how would he prove to anyone that hes the targaryen heir? he doesnt even resemble a targaryen so he fails the most basic eye test...its not like maury povich is hanging around with a dna test for jon

I don't see why the question is asked. He has work to do in the North, what with the White Walkers and their minions about to invade. He has no idea about his putative Targ blood and has no Southron Ambitions. He didn't even voluntarily run for Lord commander of the Night's Watch.

He might even be dead.

[Son of Man]

On 8/7/2016 at 5:40 PM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

I seriously doubt that Jon would be voted by anyone to rule.  He is unfit to rule.  He deserted the Night Watch and had to be dragged back.  He committed treason at the wall and betrayed the greater good just so he can rescue Arya.  He is unfit to rule.  He will always place the welfare of the few Starks over the welfare of the kingdom. 

Correct.  Jon is unfit to rule.  And if word gets out that he sent Mance Rayder to Winterfell, many lords and commons will be calling for his head.