Lord Varys - his loyalties?

[wolfsbae]

Where do his loyalties truly lie? What is his endgame?

[Future Null Infinity]

I think that he really want a targaryen restoration which is his endgame : putting a targaryen on the iron throne and his loyalty is only for Daenerys (the last known targaryen), I don't have a scene to support my thoughts but I think that he loves the targaryen dynasty and hates the lannisters

[A spoon of knife and fork]

17 hours ago, Sophie of House Stark said:

Where do his loyalties truly lie? What is his endgame?

I think that in the show at least, Varys actually wants decent-ish people to rule the 7k.  I believe he was sincere when he told Ned that "someone has to serve the realm".  

He helped to get rid of Aerys, because he was a nutjob/asshole who caused massive instability in the realm. Probably, if Rhaegar had lived, Varys would have supported him, but with Rhaegar dead he hoped Robert would at least be a better king than Aerys.

Unfortunately Robert was mostly a fat, drunk, useless mess and Joffery was looking to be as much a psycho as Aerys.  Varys did see that Tyrion was able to nevertheless be an excellent HotK, even saddled with Joffery and Cersei.  He likely wondered, how much better would the realm fare with Tyrion as the hand of a better leader?  

I don't personally think that Varys decided to support Daenerys right away - obviously since he gave Jorah a pardon for his assistance in assassinating her.  She was Aerys daughter after all - Varys was willing to help push the realm into war rather than continue with him as king.  I think only after spying on her for some time did he decide that she might be more Rhaegar's sister than Aerys' daughter.   

[Runaway Penguin]

Did Jorah save her from the poisoned wine on his own? How would he know? No, he got a message from Varys telling him about the plot (which Varys set up) and ordering him to stop it. It got him into Dany's good books. He also supplied Dany with Barristan - doubtless to have the old Kingsguard take measure of her in relation to Aerys.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

29 minutes ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Did Jorah save her from the poisoned wine on his own? How would he know? No, he got a message from Varys telling him about the plot (which Varys set up) and ordering him to stop it. It got him into Dany's good books. He also supplied Dany with Barristan - doubtless to have the old Kingsguard take measure of her in relation to Aerys.

That's very clearly not the case.  Pay attention to what the actors in that sequence convey in addition to what's actually said.  There's no indication that this is secretly a message warning Jorah about anything.  

 (starts about 45 sec in)

Dany and Jorah are walking through the market together and talking.  Suddenly Jorah makes a bad excuse and takes off.  Dany looks after him like "that was weird". 

Then, Jorah sneaks around for awhile until Varys' little bird comes upon him.  The bird says "Jorah the Andal.  The spider sends his greetings and his congratulations."  The bird gives him a scroll.    "A Royal Pardon.  You can go home now."  Then he leaves.  

Jorah looks at the scroll, troubled, and deciding what to do.  He obviously figures out what it means - that his mission is complete and he can go home because an attempt will be made on her life.  He has to decide if fulfilling his dream of going home is worth letting this girl die.  Then Jorah looks around and sees the wineseller, and deduces this guy might be trying to kill her, so he intervenes. 

It must be the case that this was a genuine pardon, since otherwise his mission would not be complete.  If Varys' message somehow secretly said that Jorah needs to save Dany because an attempt will be made, then his mission wouldn't be complete so what the Bird said would make no sense at all in context.  Furthermore, What would be the purpose of Varys telling the Bird to say that if all he wants to do is warn Jorah Dany's about to be assassinated?  THe bird could have just said "dude, watch out, someone is going to try to kill her, you need to protect her".  There isn't any good explanation other than that Varys did intend for an assassination attempt to occur.  

Now, we do know from previous scene in the crypts that Varys told Illyrio that the Dothraki should attack soon.  He may have intended still that Viserys would be the one to lead them, and killing Dany was meant to spur Drogo into action. 

And there's no indication that Barristan was sent by Varys in the show.  

[Drogonthedread]

Its very clear he is all about targargen restoration and dany installed on IT in the show and he is one of the good guys who wants the best for the realm..who is opposite of what LF is 

I don't think bringing up first seasons is going to be helpfull because the show has changed lot in last two seasons ...

But on the books he is same as LF who just wanted a ruined westeros so he can place his puppet on the throne... At least LF is honest about himself whereas varys hides behind the mask of  wanting what's good for realm 

[KingInTheNYorth]

In the books, Varys wanted Aegon VI (probably the "mummer's dragon) on the throne. That's why he was willing to kill Dany and have Drogo and Viserys attack Westeros. He killed Kevan Lannister for providing a modicum of stability for Tommen after Tywin's death. Instability in Westeros would make Aegon and his army seem like saviors rather than conquerors. His plan probably changed once Dany's dragons were born. In the end, his loyalties are to the realm, or he's a secret Blackfyre descendant. 

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

Varys in the books and show are two different demons now, the first season of the show all of Vary's decisions are not in the best interest of Dany and Viserys, which is the same as in the books, but D&D decided to cut Faegon and make Varys a clear Targ supporter later on which I think was a mistake and it makes his early season decisions make zero sense in my book.

I still like show Varys, but I think cutting Faegon was a massive mistake and blow to his character.

[NutBurz]

I never quite got it why people think that Varys was actually trying to kill Daenerys. How hard could that really be? Why poison in the wine, passively hoping to catch Daenerys´ attention? How much money would an assassin put into a disguise like that? Why not a poisoned dart or an arrow through the neck or anything active? 

Nah, I always thought Varys was protecting Dany from the best position anyone could do that - in the position of the man who gives the order to kill her. The wine seller probably just knew who Dany was and there was a "bounty" on her, but didn´t act under specific orders, at least not competent ones.

 

Varys´ loyalty is to estability. I think he´s pretty much just a merchant.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

23 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

I never quite got it why people think that Varys was actually trying to kill Daenerys. How hard could that really be? Why poison in the wine, passively hoping to catch Daenerys´ attention? How much money would an assassin put into a disguise like that? Why not a poisoned dart or an arrow through the neck or anything active? 

Nah, I always thought Varys was protecting Dany from the best position anyone could do that - in the position of the man who gives the order to kill her. The wine seller probably just knew who Dany was and there was a "bounty" on her, but didn´t act under specific orders, at least not competent ones.

 

Varys´ loyalty is to estability. I think he´s pretty much just a merchant.

You could make a case that Varys was actually protecting her. He could of sent Jorah a pardon with another message attached that said "Make sure the attempt on her life is foiled then you may return to Westeros with your pardon." and instead of coming back to Westeros Jorah just decided to stay by her side after completing his task from Varys. This is what I think was happening, but I just don't trust D&D enough to actually mean it this way even back when everything wasn't at face value like it is now.

And Jorah watching Dany talk to the wine merchant and then seeing the merchant pulling out his "Special Brand from the Arbor" could be Jorah thinking "Oh shit the assassination attempt is happening right now!"

So Jorah was warned by Varys that an attempt on her life was coming but Jorah just didn't know exactly when it was coming so he was just keeping an eye on her from afar and didn't foil the attempt on her life on a whim like it may seem at first, he was always planning to stop it.

[A Ghost of Someone]

The book and show are so different in regards to Varys and Illyrio's motives that they are trying to punch in a square peg into a round or triangular slot and it does not make sense in regards to Viserys and Dany with her marrying Drogo. Did they want Viserys to be King? Yes would be the answer to the show because the dragons were hatched by accident and that made Dany valuable. The books there is much better reasons for what they did and the show threw that out all together.

[wolfsbae]

On 08/08/2016 at 5:07 PM, KingInTheNYorth said:

or he's a secret Blackfyre descendant. 

Interesting idea - could you elaborate?

[Masha]

43 minutes ago, Sophie of House Stark said:

Interesting idea - could you elaborate?

The gist of theory is this, the books state that "male Blackfyre line was extinguished" but nothing purposely stated about female line. From Melisandre we know that "King's blood" is really potent ingredient for magic. Varys described that he was an an orphan boy apprenticed to traveling circus or entertainer, the magician bought him from his master specifically choosing him out of many other boys. The theory goes that magician selected Varys because he has king's blood, Varys shaves his head to conceal his silver/gold hair ala Egg (in Egg & Dunk stories), in fact, at the first appearance of Varys in books, Ned describes him "like an egg"). Varys has a "sister" named Serra who marries his best friend Illyrio, and Aegon is the son of Serra.

Also, Tyrion gets a prophecy from Macorro in ADWD "Dragons old and young, true and false bright and dark". So Jon Snow is "Young Dragon", Dany is "True Dragon", "Old Dragon" either Maester Aegon or perhaps Bloodraven, False Dragon - Aegon

so who are Dark Dragon - aka Blackfyre and Bright Dragon - descendants of Brightflame? I am thinking one of them is Varys and another Illyrio. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 1:23 PM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I think that in the show at least, Varys actually wants decent-ish people to rule the 7k.  I believe he was sincere when he told Ned that "someone has to serve the realm".  

He helped to get rid of Aerys, because he was a nutjob/asshole who caused massive instability in the realm. Probably, if Rhaegar had lived, Varys would have supported him, but with Rhaegar dead he hoped Robert would at least be a better king than Aerys.

Unfortunately Robert was mostly a fat, drunk, useless mess and Joffery was looking to be as much a psycho as Aerys.  Varys did see that Tyrion was able to nevertheless be an excellent HotK, even saddled with Joffery and Cersei.  He likely wondered, how much better would the realm fare with Tyrion as the hand of a better leader?  

I don't personally think that Varys decided to support Daenerys right away - obviously since he gave Jorah a pardon for his assistance in assassinating her.  She was Aerys daughter after all - Varys was willing to help push the realm into war rather than continue with him as king.  I think only after spying on her for some time did he decide that she might be more Rhaegar's sister than Aerys' daughter.   

Pretty much this. He has probably been testing the water for all potential rulers and decided on Dany, I think he may have gave Renly a shot if he hadn't died so soon after Robert.

[Lord Lannister]

It's painfully obvious what little elements of (f)Aegon's story arc that made it into the show were inherited by Dany by default. It reduces Varys by default because he was always playing such a long game.

[Grizzly A Mormont]

10 hours ago, Sophie of House Stark said:

Interesting idea - could you elaborate?

Why are you asking this question? Your OP is only 46 characters and 7 spaces.

If you want more a better conversation, may I suggest that you invest more in the OP.

The idea of your OP questions, suggests to me, that you have not even watched Season 6.

 

[A_Man_Is_No_One]

I believe he is genuine in his whole "serving the realm" motto. I do believe he wants the Seven Kingdoms to be ruled by someone fair and just, I don't think he has some secret endgame or master plan like Littlefinger.

[WolfOfWinter]

With Dany. It's pretty obvious the character has been retconned because they've decided to exclude fAegon.