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Bran Warging Hodor


Maxxine

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This came up in the Top 6 Character Thread and it's something I've always been curious about. Are people upset about Bran warging Hodor? I've found that I've mostly given him a pass for it. I'm not a fan Bran but my feelings for him really have nothing to do with Hodor. In fact, I don't think I've ever given too much thought to Bran warging Hodor unless I'm reading the Varamyr chapter. My reason is Varamyr tells us that warging a human is this great sin, but no one has told Bran. Bran didn't get to be some great skinchanger's apprentice and learn all of the do's and don't's of warging. Yeah he's learning from Bloodraven, but BR has not told him all of the rules and Jojen didn't say anything about this rule either iirc. He's completely oblivious to the rule apparently.

Of course the argument can be made that Bran knows it's wrong on some level because of the way Hodor reacts and he's keeping secret. But, I'm still inclined to give him a pass because if his circumstances. Warging Hodor has saved his life and will probably do so again. How do other people feel about the issue?

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6 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

Of course the argument can be made that Bran knows it's wrong on some level because of the way Hodor reacts and he's keeping secret. But, I'm still inclined to give him a pass because if his circumstances. Warging Hodor has saved his life and will probably do so again. How do other people feel about the issue?

Yes.  Bran knows that Hodor is resisting it.  At the tower, he does it to save all of their lives.  In the cave, he does it because he's bored.  That seems to be the point where people have a problem with it.

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22 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

Yes.  Bran knows that Hodor is resisting it.  At the tower, he does it to save all of their lives.  In the cave, he does it because he's bored.  That seems to be the point where people have a problem with it.

I get that argument. But I think I'm just like this kid has been dealt such a bad hand. He's paralyzed and potentially stuck in a cave for the rest of his life. Even if he gets out of the caves he's never going to have the chance to achieve the dreams he had. All this before the age of 10. If the one thing he does is warg Hodor so he can explore the cave and do some of the things he would be able to if weren't pushed out a window I can't be upset with him.

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I rarely write in the books section, I'm show viewer but I think that this subject is important so I apologize for this intrusion, it's just a personal opinion, I think that the example of Bran and Hodor is a part of a larger problem : it's what I called the failing of some people from the fandom to understand what I think GRRM wanted to say : there are no main characters in the story, all the characters are equal and there is human interaction between them, some people love Hodor so they will fail to see why Bran warged in him, some people will say "oh, what Bran is doing to our beloved character" and they got upset, same thing happened in the interaction Arya/Sansa and Catelyn/Jon but it's what make the story exceptional is its realism in the good and bad human interaction between the characters, it's not because someone's favourite character is Arya Stark, Jon snow, Tyrion Lannister or Hodor so all the other characters like Sansa, Catelyn or Bran must start to worship them and do nothing to them, an example of the exceptional realism in the story is Catelyn/Jon, it's human nature and it's still happening until this day in our world : the majority of men and women will never love another child more than their own childs

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There is the Varamyr bit about Haggon calling it an abomination, and Varamyr revels in all the things wargs are not supposed to do, like being in a wolf when the wolves are humping. Bran at this point in making hodor an extension of himself. Is this an abomination? maybe. would it work with a person who isn't a simpleton? Not at all,  as witnessed in the dance prologue. Brandor it seems is a special case 

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I know that some people are absolutely infuriated with Bran warging Hodor. I am not one of them. Warging Hodor to save lives, that's cool. Warging Hodor to explore the cave, not cool.

If Bran were given enough time to mature and potentially have an understanding of the implications of his Hodoring (namely imposing his will on Hodor), then we may have a fuller understanding of Bran's perspective and we can justly judge him.

For the time being, I think we can leave it alone and wait to see how it plays out in the next book.

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1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

 

Of course the argument can be made that Bran knows it's wrong on some level because of the way Hodor reacts and he's keeping secret. But, I'm still inclined to give him a pass because if his circumstances. Warging Hodor has saved his life and will probably do so again. How do other people feel about the issue?

I love Bran. He is a high listed fav of mine, but I also recognize that he is not Lilly-white and problem free because no character is.

I gave Bran a pass in the beginning when he doesn't know any better, even though we readers knew by way of Varamyr. But then Bloodraven tells him a few things about warging and Bran decides to still do it. Soooo, Bran needs to stop at some point before something bad happens and he can't be forgiven for it. However, this is in keeping with Bran being a naughty child all along. He was told to stop climbing the walls at WInterfell and he didn't listen and he was pushed (he was destined to fall anyway). Bran was told to not spend so much time in Summer, but he did it anyway and for longer and longer times. Bran was told to stay where he was in the cave, but he warged Hodor and went walking around anyway.

Bran knew what he was doing, but chose to do it for fun, and like I mentioned up above, he needs to stop before it goes to far and is unforgivable.

  • A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

    The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.
    No one ever knew when he was wearing Hodor's skin. Bran only had to smile, do as he was told, and mutter "Hodor" from time to time, and he could follow Meera and Jojen, grinning happily, without anyone suspecting it was really him. He often tagged along, whether he was wanted or not. In the end, the Reeds were glad he came. Jojen made it down the rope easily enough, but after Meera caught a blind white fish with her frog spear and it was time to climb back up, his arms began to tremble and he could not make it to the top, so they had to tie the rope around him and let Hodor haul him up. "Hodor," he grunted every time he gave a pull. "Hodor, hodor, hodor."
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I think it's best to wait and see how this plays out. It's possible that Bran's warging eventually does some lasting damage to Hodor and then Bran will realize what he did. One thing I like about the books is that we have to form our own judgement and it's not spoonfed to us that what Bran does is 'bad'. That's what makes the story so complex.

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20 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I love Bran. He is a high listed fav of mine, but I also recognize that he is not Lilly-white and problem free because no character is.

I gave Bran a pass in the beginning when he doesn't know any better, even though we readers knew by way of Varamyr. But then Bloodraven tells him a few things about warging and Bran decides to still do it. Soooo, Bran needs to stop at some point before something bad happens and he can't be forgiven for it. However, this is in keeping with Bran being a naughty child all along. He was told to stop climbing the walls at WInterfell and he didn't listen and he was pushed (he was destined to fall anyway). Bran was told to not spend so much time in Summer, but he did it anyway and for longer and longer times. Bran was told to stay where he was in the cave, but he warged Hodor and went walking around anyway.

Bran knew what he was doing, but chose to do it for fun, and like I mentioned up above, he needs to stop before it goes to far and is unforgivable.

This could just be a semantics issue, but I can't say Bran's doing it for fun. Saying he did it for fun kinda seems like he's just doing it because he can like Joffrey humiliates Sansa just because he can and I don't think that's what it is. He's warging Hodor for the same reason he stayed in Summer for longer times. He feels broken and useless (despite his apparently great power) and when he is in Summer and Bran he doesn't feel that way. I can understand the psychological need to do this.

You do bring up a good point about him constantly ignoring directions though. I hadn't though about that angle.

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I think that with the Varamyr prologue, there can be a tendency to focus in on the concept of Second Life and what this could mean for Jon, given his final chapter in Dance.  That said, there is a lot of information regarding warging that can equally be applied to Bran.  The main part of this is, for me, the idea that to warg another human being is an abomination.  Like many others who have commented, I think that I accepted it the first time because it essentially saved the lives of Bran and his travelling companions and because Bran was so untrained, even with the help he had received from Jojen. 

Abomination. That had always been Haggon's favorite word. Abomination, abomination, abomination. To eat of human meat was abomination, to mate as wolf with wolf was abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all. Haggon was weak, afraid of his own power. He died weeping and alone when I ripped his second life from him. Varamyr had devoured his heart himself. He taught me much and more, and the last thing I learned from him was the taste of human flesh. (Varamyr Prologue in Dance)

From that moment, we are primed to judge Bran more harshly than before when it comes to warging Hodor - particularly when he reaches the cave and Bloodraven is on hand to monitor his activities.  I am sure that Bloodraven knows full well what is going on; the fact that he does nothing to little about it speaks volumes about him more than it does about Bran, though.  That said, while I understand that Bran has a desire to remove the identity of Bran the Broken as much as he can, it concerns me that he considers taking over the mind of another human being as part of an adventure.  Bran is an incredibly powerful warg - and I think sometimes his age blinds him to the consequences of that, and of his actions.  He needs a Haggon to teach him right from wrong as much as Varamyr did; as much as any warg does. 

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7 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

This could just be a semantics issue, but I can't say Bran's doing it for fun. Saying he did it for fun kinda seems like he's just doing it because he can like Joffrey humiliates Sansa just because he can and I don't think that's what it is. He's warging Hodor for the same reason he stayed in Summer for longer times. He feels broken and useless (despite his apparently great power) and when he is in Summer and Bran he doesn't feel that way. I can understand the psychological need to do this.

You do bring up a good point about him constantly ignoring directions though. I hadn't though about that angle.

There is another part where Bran is in the cave and he makes a slight joke about warging Hodor and he is kinda proud of himself for tricking people into thinking his limp body is just him sleeping... or something like that.

I don't think Bran is Joffery level crazy mean. No way and my apologies if it seemed that way. I think he is just being characteristically mischievous and he gets a little fun out of that. 

Like Jon, he will learn better and do better with that knowledge. ^_^

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Well, I am going to confess that he is my favourite character so there is a bias. 

I will state that I find the action itself extremely problematic, ranking it as one of the most morally egregious acts in the series. The reason I find myself giving a pass to Bran however, is that I feel he genuinely does not understand the sheer magnitude of the moral violation he is committing here.

This is really not surprising, considering his age and his circumstances - he can't be expected to know why it is an absolute abomination because he does not have the knowledge of concepts such as free will, bodily autonomy and so on. Couple that with the fact that neither Bloodraven or the Children have attempted to explain any ethics of warging to him or lay down rules, and you have a problem on your hands.

I do not want to give him a complete pass though, because on some deep level he realises how terrible it is for Hodor and he keeps it a secret because he fears the Reeds will admonish him for it. However, again, because he is 10, he thinks the whole thing is more on the lines of him being naughty and doing what he wants to do (like climbing and not telling his mom) rather than a horrific act of body-snatching.

There is also the fact that it perhaps extremely understandable that a small boy who is paralysed and has practically nothing left to look forward to in life, gives into the temptation of wanting to have some measure of independence, to walk again, to feel like a "whole" person again. I can't imagine what it would be to lose the freedom of movement :)

So, to sum it up, I try giving him some leeway on the act (not completely, though) due to his age, paralysis and ignorance of the sheer level of the violation he is committing. I will say that it exhibits Bran's biggest "flaw" as a character though - his tendency to do whatever he wants disregarding caution (see: exploring the caves even though Leaf tells him not to do so.)

And I think Bran is in for a big time reality check regarding his powers and the fact that they are not some cool tricks but powers which might have very dangerous consequences.

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11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There is another part where Bran is in the cave and he makes a slight joke about warging Hodor and he is kinda proud of himself for tricking people into thinking his limp body is just him sleeping... or something like that.

I don't think Bran is Joffery level crazy mean. No way and my apologies if it seemed that way. I think he is just being characteristically mischievous and he gets a little fun out of that. 

Like Jon, he will learn better and do better with that knowledge. ^_^

Could you provide the quote? I don't remember this.

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12 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Could you provide the quote? I don't remember this.

I may be confusing the "sleeping part", I am still looking but not sure that I am using the best key words on the search site. There is also this part that I may have been thinking of...

  • A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

    The moon was a black hole in the sky. Wolves howled in the wood, sniffing through the snowdrifts after dead things. A murder of ravens erupted from the hillside, screaming their sharp cries, black wings beating above a white world. A red sun rose and set and rose again, painting the snows in shades of rose and pink. Under the hill, Jojen brooded, Meera fretted, and Hodor wandered through dark tunnels with a sword in his right hand and a torch in his left. Or was it Bran wandering?
    No one must ever know.
  • A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

    One day Meera and Jojen decided to go see the river, despite Leaf's cautions. "I want to come too," Bran said.
    Meera gave him a mournful look. The river was six hundred feet below, down steep slopes and twisty passages, she explained, and the last part required climbing down a rope. "Hodor could never make the climb with you on his back. I'm sorry, Bran."
    Bran remembered a time when no one could climb as good as him, not even Robb or Jon. Part of him wanted to shout at them for leaving him, and another part wanted to cry. He was almost a man grown, though, so he said nothing. But after they were gone, he slipped inside Hodor's skin and followed them. (a mischievous Bran moment of not listening)
     
    But I think it was mainly this one I was thinking of. There could be more in the books, but since I am using the search site, I may not be using the correct search "keyword"
     
    • A Dance with Dragons - Bran III
    Bran remembered a time when no one could climb as good as him, not even Robb or Jon. Part of him wanted to shout at them for leaving him, and another part wanted to cry. He was almost a man grown, though, so he said nothing. But after they were gone, he slipped inside Hodor's skin and followed them.
    The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.
    No one ever knew when he was wearing Hodor's skin. Bran only had to smile, do as he was told, and mutter "Hodor" from time to time, and he could follow Meera and Jojen, grinning happily, without anyone suspecting it was really him. He often tagged along, whether he was wanted or not. In the end, the Reeds were glad he came. Jojen made it down the rope easily enough, but after Meera caught a blind white fish with her frog spear and it was time to climb back up, his arms began to tremble and he could not make it to the top, so they had to tie the rope around him and let Hodor haul him up. "Hodor," he grunted every time he gave a pull. "Hodor, hodor, hodor."

     

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It's fundamentally wrong, taking over someones body. It is easy to imagine circumstances when it would be the lesser of two evils, necessary, if not justified. But it's still wrong, it can be fairly compared to rape.

It's important to realize also, though: Bran is still a child, and while he does know it's wrong, I doubt he knows just HOW wrong it is.

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19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I may be confusing the "sleeping part", I am still looking but not sure that I am using the best key words on the search site. There is also this part that I may have been thinking of...

  • A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

    The moon was a black hole in the sky. Wolves howled in the wood, sniffing through the snowdrifts after dead things. A murder of ravens erupted from the hillside, screaming their sharp cries, black wings beating above a white world. A red sun rose and set and rose again, painting the snows in shades of rose and pink. Under the hill, Jojen brooded, Meera fretted, and Hodor wandered through dark tunnels with a sword in his right hand and a torch in his left. Or was it Bran wandering?
    No one must ever know.
  • A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

    One day Meera and Jojen decided to go see the river, despite Leaf's cautions. "I want to come too," Bran said.
    Meera gave him a mournful look. The river was six hundred feet below, down steep slopes and twisty passages, she explained, and the last part required climbing down a rope. "Hodor could never make the climb with you on his back. I'm sorry, Bran."
    Bran remembered a time when no one could climb as good as him, not even Robb or Jon. Part of him wanted to shout at them for leaving him, and another part wanted to cry. He was almost a man grown, though, so he said nothing. But after they were gone, he slipped inside Hodor's skin and followed them. (a mischievous Bran moment of not listening)
     
    But I think it was mainly this one I was thinking of. There could be more in the books, but since I am using the search site, I may not be using the correct search "keyword"
     
    • A Dance with Dragons - Bran III
    Bran remembered a time when no one could climb as good as him, not even Robb or Jon. Part of him wanted to shout at them for leaving him, and another part wanted to cry. He was almost a man grown, though, so he said nothing. But after they were gone, he slipped inside Hodor's skin and followed them.
    The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.
    No one ever knew when he was wearing Hodor's skin. Bran only had to smile, do as he was told, and mutter "Hodor" from time to time, and he could follow Meera and Jojen, grinning happily, without anyone suspecting it was really him. He often tagged along, whether he was wanted or not. In the end, the Reeds were glad he came. Jojen made it down the rope easily enough, but after Meera caught a blind white fish with her frog spear and it was time to climb back up, his arms began to tremble and he could not make it to the top, so they had to tie the rope around him and let Hodor haul him up. "Hodor," he grunted every time he gave a pull. "Hodor, hodor, hodor."

     

Thanks for the quotes ! Was curious because I don't think Bran is the kind to make fun of others :)

I had interpreted those lines as Bran just growing more bold because he realizes no one can figure out that it's him. I never really took it as him being mean or exulting that others couldn't find out though.  

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2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Thanks for the quotes ! Was curious because I don't think Bran is the kind to make fun of others :)

I had interpreted those lines as Bran just growing more bold because he realizes no one can figure out that it's him. I never really took it as him being mean or exulting that others couldn't find out though.  

Oh, no, no, no. I never said he was making fun of others. What I said was, "he is kinda proud of himself for tricking people into thinking his limp body is just him sleeping... or something like that." I agree with the bolded and that Bran is proud that he is tricking others, as in, no one can figure him out because he is crafty. I explained this up-thread to Maxxine that I don't think Bran is mean or a "bad" kid at all. :cheers:

Spoiler

and to tell the truth, I stopped watching the abomination of the show because they messed Arya and Bran up so very, very badly that they are either unrecognizable, or not so very important because they skipped all of Bran's training and just made him a history camera on a swivel. It just goes to prove how much the show and books have zero to do with each other and has been getting worse since S3. I wasn't even that upset that they F'd up Jon's story because I knew they would for ratings. His tv arc seemed pointless in the end and doesn't even compare. I will happily stick with the books :D

 

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1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh, no, no, no. I never said he was making fun of others. What I said was, "he is kinda proud of himself for tricking people into thinking his limp body is just him sleeping... or something like that." I agree with the bolded and that Bran is proud that he is tricking others, as in, no one can figure him out because he is crafty. I explained this up-thread to Maxxine that I don't think Bran is mean or a "bad" kid at all. :cheers:

  Reveal hidden contents

and to tell the truth, I stopped watching the abomination of the show because they messed Arya and Bran up so very, very badly that they are either unrecognizable, or not so very important because they skipped all of Bran's training and just made him a history camera on a swivel. It just goes to prove how much the show and books have zero to do with each other and has been getting worse since S3. I wasn't even that upset that they F'd up Jon's story because I knew they would for ratings. His tv arc seemed pointless in the end and doesn't even compare. I will happily stick with the books :D

 

We're on the same page then :cheers:. Yeah, Bran (all the Stark kids actually) are definitely on the "light grey" side of the moral spectrum, and I don't think any of them will end as antagonists.

Spoiler

I can't abide the show at all. Season 5 was a travesty but Season 6 just got worse. It just seems like they don't care too much now, they just want to rush to the end and wrap it up. At this point, I wonder if we will even get the same ending as the books with the show because all they seem to like on screen is Dany and dragons :rolleyes:. Not a single character or plotline on the show remotely resembles the book ones anyway.

It was hilarious to see how they so utterly botched the big reveal of Jon's parentage that an infographic had to be released to state who the father was. 

To say I vastly prefer the books is an understatement. George crafts every character with care for logic and themes, even minor ones.

 

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5 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

We're on the same page then :cheers:. Yeah, Bran (all the Stark kids actually) are definitely on the "light grey" side of the moral spectrum, and I don't think any of them will end as antagonists.

  Reveal hidden contents

I can't abide the show at all. Season 5 was a travesty but Season 6 just got worse. It just seems like they don't care too much now, they just want to rush to the end and wrap it up. At this point, I wonder if we will even get the same ending as the books with the show because all they seem to like on screen is Dany and dragons :rolleyes:. Not a single character or plotline on the show remotely resembles the book ones anyway.

It was hilarious to see how they so utterly botched the big reveal of Jon's parentage that an infographic had to be released to state who the father was. 

To say I vastly prefer the books is an understatement. George crafts every character with care for logic and themes, even minor ones.

 

Yes:cheers:

and

YESSSS :commie: (under the hidden)

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