Why were the Freys so looked down upon?

[The Wolves]

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As an aside, I just realized that Big Walder - the nicer and smarter of the two Walders at Winterfell - is of Blackwood descent. Why do I think that he will be the sole surviving Frey, and the one that allows the House to survive, when all is said and done. Despite being the son of a thirteenth son, ironically.

Didn't he kill Little Walder(not that I'm complaining)?

[Protagoras]

30 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Just cause Robb insulted them doesnt mean he have to take their bullshit. Robb did the Freys dirty and took blame for what he did rightly and tried to make amends like a real man would. But just cause he 

 No you don't have the moral right because you believe that a grievance against you was had. Not everyone will attack the new wife, just cause you will doesn't mean that you're right. 

Yes, it means exactly that. He insulted them, they insult him back. Thats fairness for me. If you start something that means I have the right to finish it. And Robb did only make amends like "a real man" because he needed the Freys, which makes his amends useless since they are not given freely and honestly, but for a reason. Thats the kind of "apology" I like to shove back into people´s throats if I get one. 

We clearly have a different opinion on how to act with moral, I see. That others might not act like me does in no way weaken my resolve to treat you back tit-for-tat. If I believe I am right, I am right since I set down my own ethic. And tbh I think people should agree with me. My morality is consistant wheres the people who sometimes want to insist on forgiveness and sometimes not are partial towards certain individuals over others. And when you get to the point that different rules apply to different people, you have lost any kind of moral strength you think you have. My morality again gives fairness, which makes it superiour. 

Again, others might disagree with me, but tbh this is not a topic where I am interested in reaching any kind of intersubjective reality. I will treat people like shit in return and if some people find that repulsive in a "turn the other cheek" way - screw them. 

[bent branch]

5 hours ago, Cron said:

snip

It kind of just proves that the books and show are really quite different. Even in tone.

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Didn't he kill Little Walder(not that I'm complaining)?

This is a popular opinion, but the proof is much weaker than its proponents will acknowledge.

[TheSeer27]

Confound your lousy toll, troll.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Martin himself stated that the Great Houses are as far above the lesser Houses as the lesser Houses are above commoners. So the Freys ARE far below Robb in status. They just blackmailed him into a marriage when he needed their bridge.

They didn't blackmail him. Robb had other options, he choose not to take them.

Cat and Walder negotiated a deal, and all things considered it was a great deal for Robb.

8 hours ago, Cron said:

Robert:  Largely ignores his children, trueborn and otherwise.  Is that worse than being verbally abused like the Frey children?  Not in my opinion.,   Verbal abuse and insults like Walder Frey rains down on his descendants can be very harmful and painful.  I'd rather have Robert for a father than Walder Frey, not even close.

You would rather an indifferent father who take no responsibility for his bastards?

Walder has raised his bastards, acknowledged them so they are partially noble and has provided a means for them to live. Robert only provides for one of his 17 bastards. The rest fend for the themselves when all Robert had to do was acknowledge them and they would be set for life.

And not only is Robert an indifferent father but he beat the shit out of a 4-6 year old Joffrey. But of course saying mean things to an adult son is somehow worse? Really??

8 hours ago, Cron said:

Doran is a worse father than Walder? Wow, that's not my impression at all.  Not at all. 

Of course not, as this is how the fandom often operate. Characters they like are automatically regarded as good people.

Doran was a distant father, Arriane is convinced that he hates her and was willing to take overthrow him and take Dorne by force.

Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?" To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.

The of course there was Quentyn. Oberyn killed the Lord of Yronwood and Doran sends his oldest son as a hostage to make amends.

This mistrust does you no honor, Arianne. Quentyn should be the one conspiring against me. I sent him away when he was just a child, too young to understand the needs of Dorne. Anders Yronwood has been more a father to him than I have, yet your brother remains faithful and obedient."

And of course Quentyn then gets sent on a hugely dangerous mission thousands of miles away were he and all but two of his companions die as his father gave him an impossible task

And of course there is his youngest son Trystane, who he has betrothed to Myrcella all the while he is plotting to murder her entire family.

Doran might be a nicer character, but he is a worse character.

8 hours ago, Cron said:

Hoster Tully was a worse father than Walder Frey???  Wow, again, as with Doran, in what way?? 

Hoster forced Lysa to have an abortion and married her off to a man who was old enough to be her grandfather.

Lysa seems to not be to fond of her father, when Riverrun is attacked she refuses to offer support.

 

8 hours ago, Cron said:

Roose: Okay, this is a little more delicate, cuz both Roose and Ramsay are really bad guys who do really bad things, but looking only at their father-son relationship (can't stress that enough) I'm not sure Roose is a worse father to Ramsay than Walder is to his descendants. 

Once again? wtf?

Your only reason for not thinking that Walder is a good father is because of a few mean things yet you somehow give Roose a pass for this

All you have I gave you. You would do well to remember that, bastard. As for this … Reek … if you have not ruined him beyond redemption, he may yet be of some use to us. Get the keys and remove those chains from him, before you make me rue the day I raped your mother."

Reek saw the way Ramsay's mouth twisted, the spittle glistening between his lips.

 

And then of course there is Roose Boltons indifferent response to the fact that his unborn child from Walda is likely to be murdered by Ramsay or even the fact that he is certain that Ramsay killed his only legitimate son.

8 hours ago, Cron said:

 

Balon:  Depends on which child you are.  My take on Balon is that he's fine for all his kids except Theon.  Does he treat Theon unfairly and poorly when Theon returns? Yeah, no doubt.  But as far as I know, for Asha/Yara and the two older brothers, I have no reason to believe Balon treated them poorly. 

Can you show the evidence from the books of were Walder treated his children worse?

Balon seems pretty insulting to his son, you seem to find this as grounds for Walder being the worst father yet you seem Ok when other fathers do so.

8 hours ago, Cron said:

 

Mace:  Wow. Bumbling and incompetent, as I recall, certainly not very bright, but a "bad father"? 

I didnt call him a bad father, I said he is in the same boat as Walder. Walder is not a bad father, according to the thoughts of one his sons he is actually a good father.

8 hours ago, Cron said:

Finally, Stannis:  You say he appears indifferent.

He is indifferent. There is not a single scene in the books with Shireen and Stannis together.

"Indeed you may," Cressen answered. As if he would ever deny her. She had been denied too often in her time. Her name was Shireen. She would be ten on her next name day, and she was the saddest child that Maester Cressen had ever known. Her sadness is my shame, the old man thought, another mark of my failure. "Maester Pylos, do me a kindness and bring the bird down from the rookery for the Lady Shireen."

She is shut away from the world with a possibly insane fool while both parents ignore her.

8 hours ago, Cron said:

Bottom line, I suppose, is that I guess it's possible my views have been influenced too much by the show, but I have read all 5 main books twice each, albeit most recently a while ago, and I just don't recall viewing some of these fathers the way you do.  Hoster and Doran worse than Walder Frey???  Robert worse than Walder Frey as a father? I don't recall those perceptions at all, and for some of the others it's a mixed bag.

How on earth you can say that Robert is a better father is beyond me? He has absolutely nothing to do with the majority of his children.  Cersei was able to murder two of his twins in the Westerlands and he either did not care enough to keep tabs on them or simply didnt care.

 

Walder is clearly a man with many flaws. The world would have been no worse if he died before Robb got to the Twins in AGOT. But as a medieval lordly father he is fine, the fact that his worst crime is the 90 year old being a little blunt with some of his adult children is hardly the crime of the century.

[Jon Fossoway]

Cat and Robb both knew that lord Walder would insult them in a subtle or open way, and both Robb and Cat had to choose their words carefully and play diplomacy, when the other part has the right to be angry. A lot was at stake. 

When Cat asked lord Frey for bread and salt, you could feel the moment freezing up in tension there. Walder knew Robb and Cat suspected treason. Or maybe he knew Robb and Cat never trusted him. The exchange of words in that chapter is awesome, plays like chess. Gurm did great there.

[Cron]

3 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

They didn't blackmail him. Robb had other options, he choose not to take them.

Cat and Walder negotiated a deal, and all things considered it was a great deal for Robb.

You would rather an indifferent father who take no responsibility for his bastards?

Walder has raised his bastards, acknowledged them so they are partially noble and has provided a means for them to live. Robert only provides for one of his 17 bastards. The rest fend for the themselves when all Robert had to do was acknowledge them and they would be set for life.

And not only is Robert an indifferent father but he beat the shit out of a 4-6 year old Joffrey. But of course saying mean things to an adult son is somehow worse? Really??

Of course not, as this is how the fandom often operate. Characters they like are automatically regarded as good people.

Doran was a distant father, Arriane is convinced that he hates her and was willing to take overthrow him and take Dorne by force.

Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?" To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.

The of course there was Quentyn. Oberyn killed the Lord of Yronwood and Doran sends his oldest son as a hostage to make amends.

This mistrust does you no honor, Arianne. Quentyn should be the one conspiring against me. I sent him away when he was just a child, too young to understand the needs of Dorne. Anders Yronwood has been more a father to him than I have, yet your brother remains faithful and obedient."

And of course Quentyn then gets sent on a hugely dangerous mission thousands of miles away were he and all but two of his companions die as his father gave him an impossible task

And of course there is his youngest son Trystane, who he has betrothed to Myrcella all the while he is plotting to murder her entire family.

Doran might be a nicer character, but he is a worse character.

Hoster forced Lysa to have an abortion and married her off to a man who was old enough to be her grandfather.

Lysa seems to not be to fond of her father, when Riverrun is attacked she refuses to offer support.

 

Once again? wtf?

Your only reason for not thinking that Walder is a good father is because of a few mean things yet you somehow give Roose a pass for this

All you have I gave you. You would do well to remember that, bastard. As for this … Reek … if you have not ruined him beyond redemption, he may yet be of some use to us. Get the keys and remove those chains from him, before you make me rue the day I raped your mother."

Reek saw the way Ramsay's mouth twisted, the spittle glistening between his lips.

 

And then of course there is Roose Boltons indifferent response to the fact that his unborn child from Walda is likely to be murdered by Ramsay or even the fact that he is certain that Ramsay killed his only legitimate son.

Can you show the evidence from the books of were Walder treated his children worse?

Balon seems pretty insulting to his son, you seem to find this as grounds for Walder being the worst father yet you seem Ok when other fathers do so.

I didnt call him a bad father, I said he is in the same boat as Walder. Walder is not a bad father, according to the thoughts of one his sons he is actually a good father.

He is indifferent. There is not a single scene in the books with Shireen and Stannis together.

"Indeed you may," Cressen answered. As if he would ever deny her. She had been denied too often in her time. Her name was Shireen. She would be ten on her next name day, and she was the saddest child that Maester Cressen had ever known. Her sadness is my shame, the old man thought, another mark of my failure. "Maester Pylos, do me a kindness and bring the bird down from the rookery for the Lady Shireen."

She is shut away from the world with a possibly insane fool while both parents ignore her.

How on earth you can say that Robert is a better father is beyond me? He has absolutely nothing to do with the majority of his children.  Cersei was able to murder two of his twins in the Westerlands and he either did not care enough to keep tabs on them or simply didnt care.

 

Walder is clearly a man with many flaws. The world would have been no worse if he died before Robb got to the Twins in AGOT. But as a medieval lordly father he is fine, the fact that his worst crime is the 90 year old being a little blunt with some of his adult children is hardly the crime of the century.

Hey, as above, great write-up, seriously!  I thoroughly enjoyed reading it all, you are VERY well versed in the books, and it was an awesome refresher for me.

You make many strong points, and plainly there's a LOT of stuff from the books that I had forgotten (as I said several times above, it's been about 5 years since I last read them).

I think a lot of our differences of opinion rest in the fact that you are relying heavily on the books (reasonably enough. of course) which go into a LOT more detail than the show on numerous issues, whereas I, in my post above, already openly admitted that " I guess it's possible my views have been influenced too much by the show," and after reading all your great points I believe that's very likely the case.  I guess maybe the show has sanitized these fathers, and/or simply doesn't have time to present the same level of detail as the books, which probably explains my different perspective.  (I think many, if not virtually or even literally ALL of the great points you make are not in the show)

Again, thanks for all the information, and i really enjoyed reading your posts!

[devilish]

14 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Just cause Robb insulted them doesnt mean he have to take their bullshit. Robb did the Freys dirty and took blame for what he did rightly and tried to make amends like a real man would. But just cause he 

 No you don't have the moral right because you believe that a grievance against you was had. Not everyone will attack the new wife, just cause you will doesn't mean that you're right. 

He have to take the BS because he ridiculed them by marrying another and he needed their help. If Robb didn't want to be ridiculed then he should have stayed away from the Twins. 

You have no idea in what silly situation Robb had placed Walder Frey into. Walder betrayed his son's father in law by allowing the young wolf to pass. His actions, costed one of the most ruthless men in Westeros a defeat, Tywin's heir was taken hostage and he was returned to him as damaged goods (his sword arm was cut). Not only Robb humiliated the Freys by marrying another but he was now planning to abandon the Riverlands to Tywin's fury. There's absolutely no amends to that. 

[Lord Wraith]

An interesting take on Walder's Frey position and justification for the Red Wedding. Worth a watch.

[GyantSpyder]

The Freys are basically tax collectors who run a giant toll booth, and have periodically protected themselves by withdrawing support from their bosses and high-ranking allies. They can usually get away with this because they have an independent source of income and an easily defensible fortress.

A lot of those bosses and allies were bad and deserved what came to them (see Harren the Black and the Second Blackfyre Rebellion), and a lot of the times the Frey actually fostered alliances they were punished and humiliated for it rather than rewarded (see Fool Frey, Robb Stark, and the Fishfeed), but most of our POV characters are bosses themselves, and they don't see it that way - they only see a house that can't be trusted to keep their word, when from their perspective they are rather a house that can't be bullied into submission.