Why were the Freys so looked down upon?

[Canon Claude]

I am referring to the situation prior to the events of the book series. The Freys are dismissed by other houses, primarily for the fact that they are a new house who got where they are through their bridge tolls.

But apparently this young and new house is only six hundred years old.

Six hundred? Even for ASOIAF that is a decent age for a noble house. This snobbery seems unprecedented. Nobody sneers at the Baratheons for being only 300 years old, or the Tallharts for being around that age (Torrhen's Square could not have existed before Aegon's Conquest). Hell, the Cleganes are among the Lannisters' top bannermen yet nobody seems to really care that they're only three generations old.

I do acknowledge that the Freys have other traits working against them. Their grasping nature, Walder Frey and his endless supply of kids, their opportunism, but before all of that they seem to be dismissed out of hand because of their youth. But again, other houses are far younger and nobody seems to care about those.

[The Wolves]

Someone show me the dialogue that supports this idea that the Freys were looked down upon. 

[Lord Wraith]

3 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Someone show me the dialogue that supports this idea that the Freys were looked down upon. 

Agreed, most of the times that I can think of is Lord Walder being late and later people disliking them because of breaking guest right during the Red Wedding.

I suppose there is probably some dialogue somewhere about them being upjumped toll collectors or something to that regard. I wouldn't doubt it at all.

[The Fattest Leech]

Ameri Frey seems to be a favorite 

[cgrav]

Their loyalties are uncertain and opportunistic, at least in the events shown and remembered in the books. Walder is a prodigious breeder and is known not to value his wives or his children very much. They use their huge numbers of Frey children to try and extract loyalty from other houses with wards, wives, and husbands. And because they have a ton of kids, many of whom are only half high born, their stock is basically worthless in terms of political influence. 

In terms of loyalties, I think Walder's lack thereof is demonstrated by the fact that he doesn't marry highborn women, which basically means he won't commit to any alliance himself. He wants wives that can be thrown away without consequence. This keeps anyone but Freys from inheriting or making a claim on his lands. 

Consider also that the book is told more or less from a Stark and Lannister perspective. The Starks value honor and humility, which the Freys lack, and the Lannisters value power and alliance, which the Freys eschew. Walder Frey is basically useless to everyone who matters.

[bent branch]

As readers, our opinions are manipulated by the POV we are seeing things through. The first POV we see the Freys through is Catelyn's. Catelyn has a poor view of the Frey's since her father was their liege lord and the Frey's loyalties were known to be shaky. Another point of view we see the Freys through is Jaime's. He seems to have problems with certain members of the family, but not everyone. Remember, Jaime has a Frey uncle and cousins. We are told that Tywin didn't like the match between Genna and Emmon Frey, but that is understandable since Genna's father married her to a man that would live off of the Lannister household rather than taking care of Genna. We also see that Walder Frey was very resentful of the fact that he had a hard time finding matches for all of his children. He behaves like this was intended as an insult to him. However, notice that he himself made some decent matches with his many wives and that Leyton Hightower had a hard time finding spouses for his many (but much less than Walder's) children. Hightower doesn't seem to take offense at how hard it is to find an appropriate spouse for your children when you have a lot of them (he let his youngest marry Jorah). Finally, how much Walder's children are respected seems to me to be heavily influenced by who their mother is.

[khal drogon]

Another thread where a six hundred year old family is judged based on a person or a generation. 

[devilish]

The Freys are yet another example of the double standards Westeros had. The Lannisters waited until the end of the war to join Robert same as the Freys did and yet no one called Tywin the late Tywin Lannister. Hoster himself wouldn't have joined the war unless his daughters were married off to the two top dogs and yet Walder was expected to join the rebellion without getting anything in exchange. 

Regarding discrimination, that's pretty obvious from the start. Tywin Lannister was furious that his sister was going to marry a Frey which is quite ironic considering that he married his own cousin who was a nobody. Hoster refused to attend Walder's many weddings or to have his daughters/sons marry a Frey and the old man found it difficult to marry off his sons/daughters within noble families. I think that's proof enough that the Freys were looked down by the old families. 

I think that what pulled the Freys down was

a- They represented the nouveau riche. Their house lacked history (compared to the ancient houses such as the Starks). That was a problem both with the Tullys (Hoster only joined the rebellion when he secured good marriages for his two daughters) and the Tyrells (no one considered marrying them prior to Robert's death). Unlike the Freys the other two houses were Lord Paramount houses which play a huge advantage to them (other houses are bound to obey their Lord Paramount)

b- Walder had too many children. In times of war families are pledged to stick together and defend their own. However what would Walder do if lets say his son married a Stark and his daughter married a Lannister? Which side will he choose?

c- The Freys were at the brink of chaos. There were too many Freys and while Walder loved his family there's no guarantee that his heir will feed them and treat them like the nobility they are. The risk of marrying a Frey only for the main house to turn its back in time of need because it simply had no choice was too big. 

 

 

 

[Lord Vance II]

5 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I suppose there is probably some dialogue somewhere about them being upjumped toll collectors or something to that regard. I wouldn't doubt it at all.

I couldn't find anything pre-Red Wedding. Which makes me think a lot of the disrespect is self-pity. Walder goes on and on about how everyones laughing at them and no one respects them, when really I don't think they're looked at any higher or lower than their place as a pretty powerful house. 

They do have the "Late" moniker attached, so that might make some houses that are particularly big on honor and rushing to battle look down their noses at them. The earliest mention of someone bad-mouthing the Freys is that Tywin was super against his sister marrying a Frey, but it doesn't say why. For all we know he just didn't want his sister shipped off to the Twins. 

The Freys aren't respected like Walder thinks they should, which is up there with the Tullys and other great houses. So he sits in his packed hall grumbling and griping that all the other houses disrespect him and soon all the Freys think that. 

So basically, I think while they weren't exactly popular before recent events, no one was particularly looking down on the Freys before the Red Wedding, and paranoia and thinking they are a bigger deal than they really are made it a self fulfilling prophecy. 

Or maybe it's just been 600 years of shitheads like the current batch and it's totally deserved. 

[dariopatke]

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

Their loyalties are uncertain and opportunistic, at least in the events shown and remembered in the books. Walder is a prodigious breeder and is known not to value his wives or his children very much. They use their huge numbers of Frey children to try and extract loyalty from other houses with wards, wives, and husbands. And because they have a ton of kids, many of whom are only half high born, their stock is basically worthless in terms of political influence. 

In terms of loyalties, I think Walder's lack thereof is demonstrated by the fact that he doesn't marry highborn women, which basically means he won't commit to any alliance himself. He wants wives that can be thrown away without consequence. This keeps anyone but Freys from inheriting or making a claim on his lands. 

Consider also that the book is told more or less from a Stark and Lannister perspective. The Starks value honor and humility, which the Freys lack, and the Lannisters value power and alliance, which the Freys eschew. Walder Frey is basically useless to everyone who matters.

He values his children enough to let them all live at Twins with their families (which isnt cheap), he could have sent them to the Wall, Citadel, Faith (we saw only Luceon), Silent Sisters,...

Half highborn? Only Symond married Braavosi. Yes, they marry their own bannermen, but so do the Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons,...

He marries really highborn women. Royce (second most powerful in Vale), Swann (important house in Stormlands), Crakehall (important hiuse in Westerlands), Blackwood (ancient house, wife of one King and mistress of another came from hat house), Whent (one of three major houses in Riverlands), Rosby (wealthy and noble house from Crownlands), Farring (another from Crownlands, we saw how much Stannis resoects them, Gilbert guards SE), Erenford (his own bannermen, like 7 times widowed 90 yo can do better).

Walder lacks those, Stevron, Olyvar, Perwyn, Alessander,... dont. Walder is useful, he has 4k men, he was usefuk to Robb, two times, and he is useful to Roose at the moment of writting.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Someone show me the dialogue that supports this idea that the Freys were looked down upon. 

True. Hoster Tully did not like them and his children accept this view, the marriage alliances his family have had show that his House is not doing too bad.

"I'll speak any way I like, damn you. I've had three kings to guest in my life, and queens as well, do you think I require lessons from the likes of you, Ryger?"

 

The problem for Walder is that while the Freys may well be the most powerful vassal in the Riverlands, there is far more equality between the Houses there than other regions so he does not stand out as much as Hightower, Royce or (possibly) Yronwood does in their realms. Then there is the fact that the Blackwoods and Brackens have much richer histories, as do  a few other Houses. In terms of prestige they are lacking.

And of course Walder has an inflated sense of his own importance. He regards himself in the same company of Tywin, Jon Arryn, Stannis (kings brother, Master of Ships, Lord of the Narrow Sea Islands) and Hoster Tully when in truth he is a tier below them.

Walder missed a trick in Robert's Rebellion. He delayed and only got involved at the last minute when had he used his power and influence to support a side (any side) he could have seen his influence and position raise as he helped one side over the other. To rise in a feudal society a Lord occasionally has to gamble and pick a side, Walder refused to do so (which is probably the logical thing to do) and lost a chance to see his House raise in prestige. I bet they did so after the Dance of the Dragons when Forrest Frey was one of the notable Riverland supporters of the Blacks in that war.

 

43 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

 The earliest mention of someone bad-mouthing the Freys is that Tywin was super against his sister marrying a Frey, but it doesn't say why. For all we know he just didn't want his sister shipped off to the Twins.

Well the insinuation there was that Lord Reyne, who angrily left, was expecting Genna to marry one of his children, possibly his heir.

Not only were the Reynes a more prestigious and powerful House than the Freys  but they were a Westerland House. It would have been the better match than the second son of a foreign Lord.

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

Walder is a prodigious breeder and is known not to value his wives or his children very much.

Can you back this up? We know that he does value his children, we have one of his most useless sons expressly mention it to the reader.

He could not possibly last much longer, all his sons agreed. And when he goes, everything will change, and not for the better. His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . .

When Ser Stevron had been heir, that was one thing. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood.

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

And because they have a ton of kids, many of whom are only half high born, their stock is basically worthless in terms of political influence. 

Again, not really true. I am pretty certain that the 20th in the succession line for the Twins has a more prestigious marriage than any other 20th in line in the Riverlands.

He has done remarkably well in terms of marrying off his children to other noble Houses.

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

 

In terms of loyalties, I think Walder's lack thereof is demonstrated by the fact that he doesn't marry highborn women, which basically means he won't commit to any alliance himself.

Sometimes when making an argument it is probably a good idea to check the Wiki to see if your points actually stand up.

He has married a Royce, Crakehall, Blackwood, Swann and Whent. All highly prestigious marriages to great Houses. Rosby, Farring and Erenford, his later wives, seem less so but then his age and already great number of heirs would limit his options.

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

 Walder Frey is basically useless to everyone who matters.

Sure.

"We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope.

[The Wolves]

16 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

True. Hoster Tully did not like them and his children accept this view, the marriage alliances his family have had show that his House is not doing too bad.

"I'll speak any way I like, damn you. I've had three kings to guest in my life, and queens as well, do you think I require lessons from the likes of you, Ryger?"

 

The problem for Walder is that while the Freys may well be the most powerful vassal in the Riverlands, there is far more equality between the Houses there than other regions so he does not stand out as much as Hightower, Royce or (possibly) Yronwood does in their realms. Then there is the fact that the Blackwoods and Brackens have much richer histories, as do  a few other Houses. In terms of prestige they are lacking.

And of course Walder has an inflated sense of his own importance. He regards himself in the same company of Tywin, Jon Arryn, Stannis (kings brother, Master of Ships, Lord of the Narrow Sea Islands) and Hoster Tully when in truth he is a tier below them.

Walder missed a trick in Robert's Rebellion. He delayed and only got involved at the last minute when had he used his power and influence to support a side (any side) he could have seen his influence and position raise as he helped one side over the other. To rise in a feudal society a Lord occasionally has to gamble and pick a side, Walder refused to do so (which is probably the logical thing to do) and lost a chance to see his House raise in prestige. I bet they did so after the Dance of the Dragons when Forrest Frey was one of the notable Riverland supporters of the Blacks in that war.

 

Okay I thought that I missed some things in the books about the Freys constantly getting looked down upon. 

I like the way you put this, this is great insight and I think you're right. 

 

[devilish]

26 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

True. Hoster Tully did not like them and his children accept this view, the marriage alliances his family have had show that his House is not doing too bad.

"I'll speak any way I like, damn you. I've had three kings to guest in my life, and queens as well, do you think I require lessons from the likes of you, Ryger?"

 

The problem for Walder is that while the Freys may well be the most powerful vassal in the Riverlands, there is far more equality between the Houses there than other regions so he does not stand out as much as Hightower, Royce or (possibly) Yronwood does in their realms. Then there is the fact that the Blackwoods and Brackens have much richer histories, as do  a few other Houses. In terms of prestige they are lacking.

And of course Walder has an inflated sense of his own importance. He regards himself in the same company of Tywin, Jon Arryn, Stannis (kings brother, Master of Ships, Lord of the Narrow Sea Islands) and Hoster Tully when in truth he is a tier below them.

Walder missed a trick in Robert's Rebellion. He delayed and only got involved at the last minute when had he used his power and influence to support a side (any side) he could have seen his influence and position raise as he helped one side over the other. To rise in a feudal society a Lord occasionally has to gamble and pick a side, Walder refused to do so (which is probably the logical thing to do) and lost a chance to see his House raise in prestige. I bet they did so after the Dance of the Dragons when Forrest Frey was one of the notable Riverland supporters of the Blacks in that war.

 

Well the insinuation there was that Lord Reyne, who angrily left, was expecting Genna to marry one of his children, possibly his heir.

Not only were the Reynes a more prestigious and powerful House than the Freys  but they were a Westerland House. It would have been the better match than the second son of a foreign Lord.

Can you back this up? We know that he does value his children, we have one of his most useless sons expressly mention it to the reader.

He could not possibly last much longer, all his sons agreed. And when he goes, everything will change, and not for the better. His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . .

When Ser Stevron had been heir, that was one thing. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood.

Again, not really true. I am pretty certain that the 20th in the succession line for the Twins has a more prestigious marriage than any other 20th in line in the Riverlands.

He has done remarkably well in terms of marrying off his children to other noble Houses.

Sometimes when making an argument it is probably a good idea to check the Wiki to see if your points actually stand up.

He has married a Royce, Crakehall, Blackwood, Swann and Whent. All highly prestigious marriages to great Houses. Rosby, Farring and Erenford, his later wives, seem less so but then his age and already great number of heirs would limit his options.

Sure.

"We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope.

Joining the rebellion from the start would have served Walder no good. Sure, the Tullys would treat him slightly better. Having said that, he would be just one of many who had joined the line to obey their Lord Paramount. He won't be compensated for doing his duty. 

I think that Walder was hoping that the rebellion would be a failure and then do a Tywin Lannister by preying on the retreating Stark forces, denying their access to the North. That should have granted the loyalists gratitude who were hoping to capture Eddard alive and force him to bend the knee rather then having to invade the North. If Walder managed to do that then he would probably get the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands title. 

[devilish]

26 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, devilish said:

I think that Walder was hoping that the rebellion would be a failure and then do a Tywin Lannister by preying on the retreating Stark forces, denying their access to the North. That should have granted the loyalists gratitude who were hoping to capture Eddard alive and force him to bend the knee rather then having to invade the North. If Walder managed to do that then he would probably get the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands title. 

 

Possibly, though I think he was working with Tywin at the time or at least waiting to see which side Tywin was going to pick. Think of his marriage alliances with the Westerland Houses as Walder having insider information on who would eventually win the war.

Obviously Emmon and his children were living at the Rock, Walder would have had decent relationship with his in-law Lord Sumner Crakehall, who Merret squired for along with Jaime, Stevron who had been married to a Lydden and in the future he would marry a daughter to Lord Brax and a son to a Lefford.

It is actually this relationship with the West why Hoster originally did not like Walder

"Some men take their oaths more seriously than others, Robb. And Lord Walder was always friendlier with Casterly Rock than my father would have liked."

 

[dariopatke]

6 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Possibly, though I think he was working with Tywin at the time or at least waiting to see which side Tywin was going to pick. Think of his marriage alliances with the Westerland Houses as Walder having insider information on who would eventually win the war.

Obviously Emmon and his children were living at the Rock, Walder would have had decent relationship with his in-law Lord Sumner Crakehall, who Merret squired for along with Jaime, Stevron who had been married to a Lydden and in the future he would marry a daughter to Lord Brax and a son to a Lefford.

It is actually this relationship with the West why Hoster originally did not like Walder

"Some men take their oaths more seriously than others, Robb. And Lord Walder was always friendlier with Casterly Rock than my father would have liked."

 

And yet he gave his swords to Robb. Had he refused, Robb may go via Kingsroad or he may attack. If he attacks they can either defend or abandon one castle and destroy the bridge, then he would have to leave them.

But it was smart to send Freys with Lannister bloodwith Lannisters. Worst case scenario: Emmon is Lord of Crossing.

However, in RR there was no chance Walder could have hope for LP, that would have to go to Darrys, no matter what Freys did, ties were too strong.

I only now noticed this some men take their oaths... can refer to Robb and his later actions regarding to Freys.

[devilish]

18 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Possibly, though I think he was working with Tywin at the time or at least waiting to see which side Tywin was going to pick. Think of his marriage alliances with the Westerland Houses as Walder having insider information on who would eventually win the war.

Obviously Emmon and his children were living at the Rock, Walder would have had decent relationship with his in-law Lord Sumner Crakehall, who Merret squired for along with Jaime, Stevron who had been married to a Lydden and in the future he would marry a daughter to Lord Brax and a son to a Lefford.

It is actually this relationship with the West why Hoster originally did not like Walder

"Some men take their oaths more seriously than others, Robb. And Lord Walder was always friendlier with Casterly Rock than my father would have liked."

 

Well I think that the real reason why the Tullys hated the Freys was because it was the only house who was similar to them. They both recognised the absolute need for Riverland Lords to seal foreign alliances through marriage and they refused to join wars unless they benefited directly from them.  

Also the Freys were the only Riverlands house who could resist the Tullys. Hoster knew that he could crush the Brackens and the Blackwoods anytime mainly because he had support from the Vale and the North. He wasn't that sure about the Freys though whom, theoretically, could rely on the Westerlands support. If Walder was able to hold the Starks long enough for Tywin to crush Hoster forces then the game would be over and the Freys would have won

 

 

[TheHodorThatWasPromised]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

True. Hoster Tully did not like them and his children accept this view, the marriage alliances his family have had show that his House is not doing too bad.

"I'll speak any way I like, damn you. I've had three kings to guest in my life, and queens as well, do you think I require lessons from the likes of you, Ryger?"

Who might those three kings have been. Of course Robb is one, but who would the other two be ?

One possibility would be Aegon the fifth, afterall we know he travelled the Riverlands and found his future wife there.

Edit: It seems that this was before Robb became king, so he isn't included in the count.

[Nittanian]

15 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I suppose there is probably some dialogue somewhere about them being upjumped toll collectors or something to that regard. I wouldn't doubt it at all.

From The Mystery Knight

Quote

"Even sour wine is better than none," said Kyle the Cat. "We'll drink finer vintages at Whitewalls. Lord Butterwell is said to have the best wines north of the Arbor. He was once the King's Hand, as his father's father was before him, and he is said to be a pious man besides, and very rich."

 

"His wealth is all from cows," said Maynard Plumm. "He ought to take a swollen udder for his arms. These Butterwells have milk running in their veins, and the Freys are no better. This will be a marriage of cattle thieves and toll collectors, one lot of coin clinkers joining with another.

 

[Jon Fossoway]

I think Walder consolidated the House's power and more than the Freys always being look down upon, it's since Walder and his numerous sons and marriages everywhere that westerosi nobility is either uncomfortable or uneasy around a Frey.