How do you feel about the return of the targaryens?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

On August 17, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Damitol said:

I don't think it will be Dani or Jon at the end.  George said it would be a "bittersweet" ending and allegedly shared the ending with D&D, although he could everything by the time book 7 is released in 2174.

So - I'm guessing that someone who really isn't looking for the power will end up on the throne out of sense of duty, rather than wanting it.  I agree with others that neither Jon or Dani will survive the war with the WW, as their deaths will be unexpected by most people watching AND reading, plus neither would be a surprise if they sat on the throne.  And while I see the merit of the tri-arch idea, I don't think of that as "bittersweet".

What if somehow Tyrion made it to the end and was put on the Iron Throne by whomever is left.  He never wanted the power or responsibility and would no doubt hate a lot of the job, but he is undoubtedly one of the most qualified characters to do the job, and we could assume he would rule fairly and logically.

I know there are problems with that theory in getting him there by current rules, but I'm just saying that is about the most bittersweet yet satisfying ending I can think of.

To be honest I agree with you - I think Tyrion being King or possibly Regent (for a child of Dany and/or Jon) is a likely ending, and one that would sort of bring things full circle IMO.

now I also think there's about an 80% chance that Tyrion is actually Aerys bastard.  If that comes to light somehow (Varys, maybe?), then Jon and/or Dany might legitimize him before they head north.  Then he really would have a decent footing to claim the throne, provided they both die.

[Lurid Jester]

8 hours ago, WolfOfWinter said:

She's literally helping Yara usurp her uncle who was chosen into his position by their people. She was also perfectly fine with putting her son on the Iron Throne back when her brother was still alive. I don't believe Jon will ever pursue the Iron Throne, but Dany's not going to stand aside for him if he chooses to fight for it.

Viserys <> Rhaegar's son

If Dany learns that Jon is Rhaegar's son I think it will lean her in his favor.  She's idolized Rhaegar and that's going to affect her opinion of Jon.  

Usurping from Jon could very well be like usurping from Rhaegar. 

[WolfOfWinter]

2 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Viserys <> Rhaegar's son

If Dany learns that Jon is Rhaegar's son I think it will lean her in his favor.  She's idolized Rhaegar and that's going to affect her opinion of Jon.  

Usurping from Jon could very well be like usurping from Rhaegar. 

Her rightful King and her rightful King according to the law the follows? If ignoring Viserys' right isn't usurping him because of his mental state, then ignoring Aerys' right isn't usurping because of his similar state, meaning that Robert was justified according to her logic. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I don't buy that Tyrion is a Targaryen too. It would be too plain if evry important charachter would somehow be a secret Targaryen and the whole ASOIAF were a story of Targ restoration. The whole story of Targaryen rule in Westeros, though I admit it is  very interesting, is a story of incest and kinslaying. And both things are strongly condemned in the books.Thus, I think the Trag redemption with "good" Trgs like Jon and Dany, winning the war of Dawn is veeeery unlikely.

[Future Null Infinity]

I agree, Tyrion is a targaryen will not add anything to his story (it's a relic theory from the "X is a secret targaryen" era), targaryens are normal people and the story of Tyrion is a story of someone who struggling because of his physical appearance to make a place in the society, his story is interesting because the way he is (although I think his level of intellignce is overblown by some people, he got outsmarted big time by Cersei and nearly killed by her schemings, it was his plot armour who saved him from Cersei)

[Drogonthedread]

On 8/10/2016 at 7:07 AM, NorthernXY said:

Have disliked Dany since she fell in love with the genocidal Drogo, hated her since she got Drogo riled up and slaughtered the Lhazareen, knew she was going down the mad path since book two.  Dany downplays the rules she breaks and books readers (show watchers more so) give her a pass because she's a young, pretty, magical, princess with dragons.  Listen to people in the books talk about the arms length of war crimes and hospitality rules she broken and you see why Essos hates her and why she'll only bring fire and blood to Westeros.

Really disappointed Jon is part of the Targaryen incest cult (though it's always been obvious) and now has an excellent chance of passing on Targaryen madness if he actually becomes King in the North, luckily I don't think he'll have kids.

Book two of this series is ACOK right...

Can you help me with what's in the book two that made certain dany is mad ..

 

14 hours ago, WolfOfWinter said:

She's literally helping Yara usurp her uncle who was chosen into his position by their people. She was also perfectly fine with putting her son on the Iron Throne back when her brother was still alive. I don't believe Jon will ever pursue the Iron Throne, but Dany's not going to stand aside for him if he chooses to fight for it.

An uncle who just killed their father because he wanted to steal their throne and who was literally saying "let's go kill those two "..

Can you show me where dany is planning to put her son on the throne when viserys was alive.  I have an idea about what you are referring to ..but I would like to see what proof you have ..

 

 

[khal drogon]

22 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I don't buy that Tyrion is a Targaryen too. It would be too plain if evry important charachter would somehow be a secret Targaryen and the whole ASOIAF were a story of Targ restoration. The whole story of Targaryen rule in Westeros, though I admit it is  very interesting, is a story of incest and kinslaying. And both things are strongly condemned in the books.Thus, I think the Trag redemption with "good" Trgs like Jon and Dany, winning the war of Dawn is veeeery unlikely.

Maybe they won't rule. Maybe that's why we have Baratheon bastards. I hate the Baratheons but I wouldn't mind Gendry ruling.

[A Ghost of Someone]

If Jon is the leader  of the Targaryens, that is acceptable so long as he grants / agrees with the North being independent from the Iron Throne. Dany, especially with Tyrion at her side just really makes me not want to go there. Nothing against women in charge. More so in the books that I do not want her atleast ruling over the North but in the show, I prefer not.

[Arystan]

On 19.08.2016 at 7:03 PM, Drogonthedread said:

Can you show me where dany is planning to put her son on the throne when viserys was alive.  I have an idea about what you are referring to ..but I would like to see what proof you have ..

At that moment Viserys was still alive, but I think Dany realized that her brother would never be a good king.

Quote

She wondered if all men were as false in the Seven Kingdoms. When her son sat the Iron Throne, she would see that he had bloodriders of his own to protect him against treachery in his Kingsguard.

 

[Drogonthedread]

5 hours ago, Arystan said:

At that moment Viserys was still alive, but I think Dany realized that her brother would never be a good king.

 

Yeah I know it will be this quote that will be used ..

I think we need to clear two things.

1) Dany and her son is heir to viserys..so rhaego is next in line after viserys and she can't make a decision for her brother but as a mother she cab for his son .. .its only natural to think about how to safegurad her son by changing the guards. Especially when she is thinking about how her father is killed by his guard.   Context matters.  

2) even though she thinks viserys can't lead them or be a good king ..she still sees him as a king ...and in no way actively tried to steal his claim while he was alive like the poster claimed.   

We have this quote from daenerys..

Quote

   

For a moment Dany was so shocked she had no words. “My eggs … but they’re mine, Magister Illyrio gave them to me, a bride gift, why would Viserys want … they’re only stones …”

  “The same could be said of rubies and diamonds and fire opals, Princess … and dragon’s eggs are rarer by far. Those traders he’s been drinking with would sell their own manhoods for even one of those stones, and with all three Viserys could buy as many sellswords as he might need.”

  Dany had not known, had not even suspected. “Then … he should have them.He does not need to steal them. He had only to ask. He is my brother … and my true king.

 

This pretty much puts an end to those claims ...

[Arystan]

4 hours ago, Drogonthedread said:

This pretty much puts an end to those claims ..

I'm actually a Dany's fan, so thank you for explanation, that makes sense. However Viserys was young and could have his own children, so under normal circumstances Dany and Rhaego would unlikely ascended to throne. 

[Drogonthedread]

19 minutes ago, Arystan said:

I'm actually Dany's fan, so thank you for explanation, that makes sense. However Viserys was young and could have his own children, so under normal circumstances Dany and Rhaego would unlikely ascended to throne. 

Yeah I didn't say you did those claims...I was mainly directing my comment at wolfofwinter who claimed dany had no problems putting her son on throne while viserys was alive.   Which never happened in the books nor show..

 

To answer your post yes he is young  But that's still a long way to go.. He is going for an war he anything may happen ...at that moment dany and rhaego was his heir and they are pretty much there.we are not even sure viserys will survive and as a blood of princess ..rhaego is pretty much on the contention ..

What am saying is its actually simple thought of an frightened mother who tries to protect her son and doesn't want her son to have same ending as her father.  There was no malicious backstabbing power grabbing move by dany like that poster claimed .

[Lord Friendzone]

On 19. 8. 2016 at 8:55 AM, Lurid Jester said:

Viserys <> Rhaegar's son

If Dany learns that Jon is Rhaegar's son I think it will lean her in his favor.  She's idolized Rhaegar and that's going to affect her opinion of Jon.  

Usurping from Jon could very well be like usurping from Rhaegar. 

Daeny woldn't be usurping anything because the person who got strongest army will win it. It's not about clam as much as power to take the Iron Throne by conquest but of course her name will help her. Jon is not even interested in Iron Throne and sees threat from Beyond The Wall. If he ever sit on Iron Throne it will be beacuse of is actions, bravery and leadership and because others choose him. He'll do it out of dut but he would never pursue it from his own will or because someone else for example Dany told him. Only if people want him. Just like was votd LC or KITN in this season.

 

If Dany learns but will she and if so will she even believe it? Come on, the guy looks nothing like Targaryen, he acts even as a Stark, he associates himself with them and it's interesting how to prove it because word from Bran or Howland might convince some but to thers will say that it's just a story made up by those people. How to prove it? Crypts, evidence Howland is guarding or dragons? Really curious how to prove his parentage becuse Isaac told that he needs to spread the word about him but who will believe it because it really sounds like story for kids.

On 19. 8. 2016 at 0:27 PM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I don't buy that Tyrion is a Targaryen too. It would be too plain if evry important charachter would somehow be a secret Targaryen and the whole ASOIAF were a story of Targ restoration. The whole story of Targaryen rule in Westeros, though I admit it is  very interesting, is a story of incest and kinslaying. And both things are strongly condemned in the books.Thus, I think the Trag redemption with "good" Trgs like Jon and Dany, winning the war of Dawn is veeeery unlikely.

You're not alone in this. Tyrion as Targ only diminishes his relationship with Tywin because these two have a lot in common. Also if we got Jon's reveal then Tyrion's it seems then everyone is a secret Targaryen and it defeats the purose because it diminishes impact of it. If you want secret Targaryen do one reveal because you don't have to be Targaryen to ride a dragon if they want to go there. History show us this and George said it...he doesn't have to be a Taragyren and show didn't really laid out much of groundwork for it either. We don't even got on screen confirmation of Rhaegar and we should see him next season.

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Jon may be Rhaegar's son but he will never be a Targaryen. I do believe that Dany will bring back the Targaryens but this will not be permanent and in the end the Targaryen will fall.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

On 8/19/2016 at 5:55 AM, WolfOfWinter said:

Her rightful King and her rightful King according to the law the follows? If ignoring Viserys' right isn't usurping him because of his mental state, then ignoring Aerys' right isn't usurping because of his similar state, meaning that Robert was justified according to her logic. 

On the contrary, I think it will be a very good thing if Dany completely accepts that Aerys deserved to be removed from power because evil crazy assholes don't deserve to rule.  In fact, her actions in support of Yara (against Euron) suggest this may be the case already.  Her resolve in this will be tested WRT the current Dornish establishment, who are a bunch of evil, crazy, assholes.  

In any case, Dany is under no obligation to accept that Robert (and Tywin et al) are justified in destroying an entire Dynasty including murdering some children and exiling others, just because Aerys was an evil crazy asshole and deserved to be deposed.  

[A spoon of knife and fork]

On 8/19/2016 at 6:27 AM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I don't buy that Tyrion is a Targaryen too. It would be too plain if evry important charachter would somehow be a secret Targaryen and the whole ASOIAF were a story of Targ restoration. The whole story of Targaryen rule in Westeros, though I admit it is  very interesting, is a story of incest and kinslaying. And both things are strongly condemned in the books.Thus, I think the Trag redemption with "good" Trgs like Jon and Dany, winning the war of Dawn is veeeery unlikely.

Whether or not Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys (not a "Targaryen"), it's all but a lock that Dany and Jon will fight against The Others in the show.  The Showrunners have been quite clear that the Night's King is basically non-human, not a force of good or evil but only of destruction - and thus human characters will have to defeat him in order to save humanity.  Given Dany's penchant for saving people I can't see her ignoring a plea to save Westeros (and as foreshadowing for this, see the house of the undying scene where she almost touches the Iron Throne, but then goes BEYOND THE WALL after hearing her dragons cry...).  And Jon is going to accept any help he can get because he has demonstrated repeatedly that he cares more about saving Westeros than about who rules it later.  

I think it's almost impossible Dany survives this (she meets Drogo and Rhaegal beyond the wall in the same vision...) and Jon gets... at most a 50% chance to survive.  And he won't want to be king on the Iron Throne, IMO, even if he survives.  After that, we have Tyrion left.  He'll be the hand of the Queen already.  He may be a dragon rider.  Whether he's a bastard of Aerys or not, he's going to have some massive political clout.  

Anyway this doesn't mean that the "Targaryens are redeemed".  It just means that some of the poeple who saved the world happen to have descended from Targaryens.  We will also have Lannisters and Starks and perhaps others playing big roles.  And perhaps the guy who is left standing will end up having some Targaryen blood...

5 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

You're not alone in this. Tyrion as Targ only diminishes his relationship with Tywin because these two have a lot in common. Also if we got Jon's reveal then Tyrion's it seems then everyone is a secret Targaryen and it defeats the purose because it diminishes impact of it. If you want secret Targaryen do one reveal because you don't have to be Targaryen to ride a dragon if they want to go there. History show us this and George said it...he doesn't have to be a Taragyren and show didn't really laid out much of groundwork for it either. We don't even got on screen confirmation of Rhaegar and we should see him next season.

I don't think it diminishes the Tywin relationship.  Whoever donated the sperm, Tywin is Tyrion's father.  And Tyrion happens to resemble his father in many ways Tywin's other children do not.  The way the Tywin raised Tyrion, and the constant rejection and hatred from him, easily explains the relationship.  Part of that hatred and rejection is caused by Tywin not being certain Tyrion isn't Aerys' - who by this point he hates, probably because he suspects he raped his wife.  When Tywin looks at Tyrion, he sees Johanna, but he also sees Aerys, and Johanna's dead body.

I also don't buy the "too many secret Targs" theory because the The Jon and Tyrion situations are quite different and really mirror each other.  Tyrion has grown up believing he is trueborn and entitled to inherit his lands and castle from his father.  Jon has grown up believing himself a bastard who will never inherit anything.  It turns out that the reality of the situation is reversed.  Jon is trueborn, and (technically) heir to the IT.  Tyrion is a bastard with claim to nothing.  Turns out the men who caused this are both Targaryens, and there's another Targaryen entering the scene as well.  They all find out they have family they never knew - it's like a lot of adoption stories.  

Anyway, GRRM decided to dump a whole lot of evidence for this theory on us after ADWD was published so ti's not a relic theory.  Both in that volume and in the world book there's many references to Aerys' obsession with Tyrion's mother.  So until proven otherwise, I'm going to assume he did that for a reason and not just as some weird last minute red herring.  

[Lord Friendzone]

7 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Whether or not Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys (not a "Targaryen"), it's all but a lock that Dany and Jon will fight against The Others in the show.  The Showrunners have been quite clear that the Night's King is basically non-human, not a force of good or evil but only of destruction - and thus human characters will have to defeat him in order to save humanity.  Given Dany's penchant for saving people I can't see her ignoring a plea to save Westeros (and as foreshadowing for this, see the house of the undying scene where she almost touches the Iron Throne, but then goes BEYOND THE WALL after hearing her dragons cry...).  And Jon is going to accept any help he can get because he has demonstrated repeatedly that he cares more about saving Westeros than about who rules it later.  

I think it's almost impossible Dany survives this (she meets Drogo and Rhaegal beyond the wall in the same vision...) and Jon gets... at most a 50% chance to survive.  And he won't want to be king on the Iron Throne, IMO, even if he survives.  After that, we have Tyrion left.  He'll be the hand of the Queen already.  He may be a dragon rider.  Whether he's a bastard of Aerys or not, he's going to have some massive political clout.  

Anyway this doesn't mean that the "Targaryens are redeemed".  It just means that some of the poeple who saved the world happen to have descended from Targaryens.  We will also have Lannisters and Starks and perhaps others playing big roles.  And perhaps the guy who is left standing will end up having some Targaryen blood...

I don't think it diminishes the Tywin relationship.  Whoever donated the sperm, Tywin is Tyrion's father.  And Tyrion happens to resemble his father in many ways Tywin's other children do not.  The way the Tywin raised Tyrion, and the constant rejection and hatred from him, easily explains the relationship.  Part of that hatred and rejection is caused by Tywin not being certain Tyrion isn't Aerys' - who by this point he hates, probably because he suspects he raped his wife.  When Tywin looks at Tyrion, he sees Johanna, but he also sees Aerys, and Johanna's dead body.

I also don't buy the "too many secret Targs" theory because the The Jon and Tyrion situations are quite different and really mirror each other.  Tyrion has grown up believing he is trueborn and entitled to inherit his lands and castle from his father.  Jon has grown up believing himself a bastard who will never inherit anything.  It turns out that the reality of the situation is reversed.  Jon is trueborn, and (technically) heir to the IT.  Tyrion is a bastard with claim to nothing.  Turns out the men who caused this are both Targaryens, and there's another Targaryen entering the scene as well.  They all find out they have family they never knew - it's like a lot of adoption stories.  

Anyway, GRRM decided to dump a whole lot of evidence for this theory on us after ADWD was published so ti's not a relic theory.  Both in that volume and in the world book there's many references to Aerys' obsession with Tyrion's mother.  So until proven otherwise, I'm going to assume he did that for a reason and not just as some weird last minute red herring.  

Yet show tends to ignore it. Why is that? Until D&D show us solid proof then Iam gonna doubt it since key aspects are supposed to be same. They would make Tyrion Targ if it's gonna be in the books.

For my taste too many Targaryens. I know people are crazy about it but how you present kinda makes sense but still for me it diminishes Jon's reveal and it's way too close to each other. It might be happening but not really fan of it. I suppose you also support three headed dragon being them riding into battle? Which is extremely cheesy but like George said not all riders have to be Targaryens and if two are Jon and Daeny then third Tyrion might not be or it's totally different and Bran will somehow be third. Remember 3ER told he'll fly. We don't know if Jon is trueborn and it really isn't about it whether legit or not. It's about how to earn things by himself and not name. Legit or not really dosn't play that much of difference.

[thor2006]

Go team Targeryan. Down with the Usurpers and their dogs.

[Future Null Infinity]

23 minutes ago, thor2006 said:

Go team Targeryan. Down with the Usurpers and their dogs.

I called it "the curse of the rebellion"  every house who rebelled against the Targs hit rock bottom now 

[thor2006]

4 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I called it "the curse of the rebellion"  every house who rebelled against the Targs hit rock bottom now 

Seriously I want for some sort of peaceful resolution between the Starks and Dany , without any being devaluated or relegated to second fiddle. Also want Cercei and her rule to end , also Euron to loose. So I really want the wars to end so the realm to concentrate on the WW threat. Also I believe Westeros is better for all as an united than in several independent state, despite all the problems a united Westeros brings.