How do you feel about the return of the targaryens?

[Future Null Infinity]

17 hours ago, thor2006 said:

Seriously I want for some sort of peaceful resolution between the Starks and Dany , without any being devaluated or relegated to second fiddle. Also want Cercei and her rule to end , also Euron to loose. So I really want the wars to end so the realm to concentrate on the WW threat. Also I believe Westeros is better for all as an united than in several independent state, despite all the problems a united Westeros brings.

Personally, I will not exclude any scenario until the end of the show because I think that peace between the starks and Dany is a too happy ending 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

On 8/21/2016 at 6:08 PM, Lord Friendzone said:

Yet show tends to ignore it. Why is that? Until D&D show us solid proof then Iam gonna doubt it since key aspects are supposed to be same. They would make Tyrion Targ if it's gonna be in the books.

Well, they left out a ton of Jon stuff until the last 2 seasons so same might happen with Tyrion.  In the books, R+L=Jon evidence is presented in book 1 & 2 primarily, plus stuff about Rhaegar being a decent sort in book 3.  In show, except for one or two S1 moments, it's not until seasons 5 and 6 we get that info.  

In books, evidence that Tyrion might be Aerys bastard is almost entirely in book 5 and the world book.  Before that, we only have the relationship with Tywin, which is similar in show and books and could be interpreted either way (in light of the later material it should be reexamined as evidence IMO). In any case, if they follow the same time line as with Jon, we would probably get hints about Tyrion's identity later in the show than in the books (so season 7 for big hints, season 8 for confirmation, probably).  

On 8/21/2016 at 6:08 PM, Lord Friendzone said:

For my taste too many Targaryens. I know people are crazy about it but how you present kinda makes sense but still for me it diminishes Jon's reveal and it's way too close to each other. It might be happening but not really fan of it. I suppose you also support three headed dragon being them riding into battle?

I don't honestly love the theory, I just think it's very well supported and likely to be true.  In fact I used to loathe the theory (I came around after reading ADWD).  But in general, my most personal and fondest wishes for character end points don't really have much resemblance to what I think will actually happen, or what does happen.  Like for instance I'd love for Jaime and Brienne to get married and live happily ever after but the likelihood of that is very very small to say the least!  I certainly didn't want to see Stannis murder his daughter before dying a pointless death in a pointless battle, but over the span of the series, it does follow an arc for his character that is overall coherent and in a way satisfying (though deeply tragic).  

I also don't think people's personal opinion about what is "cheesy" is much of a reason to say a theory is unlikely.  No more than saying "X must happen because GRRM always breaks tropes".  Fair enough to say "ugh, I hope that doesn't happen".  But to say "nah it's never gonna happen it's too cheesy" / "too happy" is I think a little silly.  The main thing is how we get there and if it's organic character development the cheesiness factor isn't really relevant.  

On 8/21/2016 at 6:08 PM, Lord Friendzone said:

Which is extremely cheesy but like George said not all riders have to be Targaryens and if two are Jon and Daeny then third Tyrion might not be or it's totally different and Bran will somehow be third. Remember 3ER told he'll fly. We don't know if Jon is trueborn and it really isn't about it whether legit or not. It's about how to earn things by himself and not name. Legit or not really dosn't play that much of difference.

I used to think Bran + Jon + Dany might control dragons.  Now, I don't really think so.  I think either we have Jon, Dany, Tyrion Triumverate or Dany just controls all the dragons like at the end of Season 6.

[Lord Stannis-The True King]

I simply can't get behind the Targarians. As much as I like Daenerys as a character her family line is repulsive to me. So much madness and needless killing. Incest, arrogance and privilage with a fair amount of incompetence. Yes, they were powerful. They conqured six of the seven kingdoms. They controled dragons. But they didn't know how to rule. They let their dragons waste away in chains to the point of extinction. They continuously married siblings and cousins to retain the throne, regardless of what madness followed. All of this led to Robert's Rebellion. Yes, it was selfishly motivated. But Lyonna Stark's abduction is a perfect example of the Targarian sense of entitlement, lack of forsight and absence of any duty to the kingdom and the greater good. Robert's rebellion was just. It gained the support of the common people for a reason. I cannot endorse a Targarian restoration for these reasons. Especially when Daenerys exibits all of these traits to varying degrees.

What we need is a Baratheon restoration. Sure Robert drank too much, spent far too much time in brothels and had a sham of a marriage. He put the kingdom in debt with his frivolous spending.  But he kept the peace for what? 18 years? No one dared cross him. The common people were happy and there was no war. He showed that he cared about the greater good when he married Cerci. There was no love there, but it was a neccessary political alliance.  In fact Robert was so pivital to the peace that war broke out as soon as he died. Here's hoping Gendry lives up to his family name and leads a populist rebellion against the mad queen in season 7. "Ours is the Fury"

[Jon Snow Nothing]

2 hours ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

I simply can't get behind the Targarians. As much as I like Daenerys as a character her family line is repulsive to me. So much madness and needless killing. Incest, arrogance and privilage with a fair amount of incompetence. Yes, they were powerful. They conqured six of the seven kingdoms. They controled dragons. But they didn't know how to rule. They let their dragons waste away in chains to the point of extinction. They continuously married siblings and cousins to retain the throne, regardless of what madness followed. All of this led to Robert's Rebellion. Yes, it was selfishly motivated. But Lyonna Stark's abduction is a perfect example of the Targarian sense of entitlement, lack of forsight and absence of any duty to the kingdom and the greater good. Robert's rebellion was just. It gained the support of the common people for a reason. I cannot endorse a Targarian restoration for these reasons. Especially when Daenerys exibits all of these traits to varying degrees.

What we need is a Baratheon restoration. Sure Robert drank too much, spent far too much time in brothels and had a sham of a marriage. He put the kingdom in debt with his frivolous spending.  But he kept the peace for what? 18 years? No one dared cross him. The common people were happy and there was no war. He showed that he cared about the greater good when he married Cerci. There was no love there, but it was a neccessary political alliance.  In fact Robert was so pivital to the peace that war broke out as soon as he died. Here's hoping Gendry lives up to his family name and leads a populist rebellion against the mad queen in season 7. "Ours is the Fury"

You know Robert and Stannis Baratheon are 1/4 targaryen, right? I remember a Lannister, was it Tyrion's aunt, can't remember, but someone in the books mentions the Baratheons are reckless because of targaryen blood.

Also, before the Targs, Westeros were ruled by other Kings, and there were wars too. In fact, the Targaryens helped unite Westeros, a land with seven monarchs before they accepted Aegon and "bended the knee".

There are always wars, no matter who is King. Also, we learn very well from the beginning of the story that the true ruler is the hand of the king, and in RB case, Jon Arryn, who was only acceptable imo, because he did nothing to prevent the bankruptcy and should never let the Lannisters get so close to the throne - Ned even mentions this to Robert, talking about how he found Jaime sitting on the IT when the got there. Maybe if Robert have not married Cersei, things had been different.

14 years, not 18, and there was a rebellion from the Greyjoys, leading to Theon being ward of Ned, leading to Theon betraying the Starks, leading to the Boltons conquering Winterfell... And please, "no oned dared cross him", you mean Roberth Baratheon or Tywin Lannister? Because Robert did nothing as a King, he was ruled by the Lannisters and even his children were not his. He was a puppet on the hands of clever people who are never seen as "mad" but really as "bad", murderers.

Do you really think Gendry is supposed to rule over Westeros because he is one of Rob Baratheon's bastards? Really?

The books and the series show that it doesn't matter if you are a good person, being good doesn't make you a good ruler. Quite on the contrary. If you think Gendry would be a good King because you think he's good and because of his "heritage", no, this is not Game of Thrones, or ASoIaF.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

On 09/08/2016 at 10:31 AM, Future Null Infinity said:

So, Daenerys is in her way to Westeros and Jon is a confirmed targaryen, how do you feel about it?

I'm happy for Jon because he's on the verge of knowing his real parentage because all his life he didn't like be a bastard but on the other hand I don't like to see a targaryen on the iron throne, they were the foreign invaders of Westeros for 300 years and another invasion or ruler from the same people is too much (pretty much like real life, no one wants to see his land occupied and re-occupied by the same invaders)

I don't think Dany or Jon want to rule. In the show at least, do not remember the books so well, she says she wants to break the weel. That means she might want things completely different from 300 years ago.

Jon is not a confirmed Targaryen, not even on the show. He might be Rhaegar's son, yes, but he might be only a bastard. The most important thing, for him, will be that he is Lyanna Stark's son and that it was an act of love that brought "shame" to Ned Stark, a brotherly love, to save his nephew from the Lannisters he lied and omitted truths from his King. Lyanna made him promise, so he kept his word, even though he could see how this affected his wife and the relationship between her and Jon. Jon is much obsessed with who his mother was and with the fact that he was "different" from his siblings, just like Ghost is different. He thinks his mother brought shame to Ned's honor because of one impulsive act, and he might be right but the reasons were totally different and the context changing, Jon is going to change too.

In the books, there were people saying to Arya that when the Targs ruled there were no such a thing as the atrocities commited by Clegane under Lannister's orders, at least to smallfolk.

I would choose any Targaryen over Tywin Lannister. Aerys was mad, and madness is a disease. Tywin was cruel, even to his own child, Tyrion. I would only accept Tyrion as King because he killed his father.

[Lord Stannis-The True King]

On August 24, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

You know Robert and Stannis Baratheon are 1/4 targaryen, right? I remember a Lannister, was it Tyrion's aunt, can't remember, but someone in the books mentions the Baratheons are reckless because of targaryen blood.

Also, before the Targs, Westeros were ruled by other Kings, and there were wars too. In fact, the Targaryens helped unite Westeros, a land with seven monarchs before they accepted Aegon and "bended the knee".

There are always wars, no matter who is King. Also, we learn very well from the beginning of the story that the true ruler is the hand of the king, and in RB case, Jon Arryn, who was only acceptable imo, because he did nothing to prevent the bankruptcy and should never let the Lannisters get so close to the throne - Ned even mentions this to Robert, talking about how he found Jaime sitting on the IT when the got there. Maybe if Robert have not married Cersei, things had been different.

14 years, not 18, and there was a rebellion from the Greyjoys, leading to Theon being ward of Ned, leading to Theon betraying the Starks, leading to the Boltons conquering Winterfell... And please, "no oned dared cross him", you mean Roberth Baratheon or Tywin Lannister? Because Robert did nothing as a King, he was ruled by the Lannisters and even his children were not his. He was a puppet on the hands of clever people who are never seen as "mad" but really as "bad", murderers.

Do you really think Gendry is supposed to rule over Westeros because he is one of Rob Baratheon's bastards? Really?

The books and the series show that it doesn't matter if you are a good person, being good doesn't make you a good ruler. Quite on the contrary. If you think Gendry would be a good King because you think he's good and because of his "heritage", no, this is not Game of Thrones, or ASoIaF.

You make some good points. I did forget about the Iron Islands rebellion. I just see that more a result of the Ironborn beeing dicks than of Robert's policies. I'll agree that Robert had issues. He wasn't perfect. But to me he had the major qualities I would want in a monarch. He was strong but not cruel. You can't say he wasn't strong. He destroyed nearly all of the Targarians and won the throne. I don't believe he was Tywin's puppet. There was no grand conspiracy. Cerci orchistrated his death only in response to Ned Stark confronting her. Tywin I imagine was quite happy with his Daughter as Queen and Grandson first in the line of succession.  And yes, I do believe Gendry has a blood right to the throne. Just as much as Jon Snow has to Winterfell. Neither character has been legitimized. They both have bastard names, but the North following Jon has set a precident. If the dissenfranchised people of Kings Landing view Gendry in the same way he could lead a populist revolt against Cerci. With the Death of Stannis he has the best claim. There's no doubt he would win the support of the common people given what Cerci has done. Plus she has Zero right to the Throne.  Add to that the long running partnership between the Starks and the Baratheons and Gendry could verry well gain Jon's support. It can happen.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

20 hours ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

You make some good points. I did forget about the Iron Islands rebellion. I just see that more a result of the Ironborn beeing dicks than of Robert's policies. I'll agree that Robert had issues. He wasn't perfect. But to me he had the major qualities I would want in a monarch. He was strong but not cruel. You can't say he wasn't strong. He destroyed nearly all of the Targarians and won the throne. I don't believe he was Tywin's puppet. There was no grand conspiracy. Cerci orchistrated his death only in response to Ned Stark confronting her. Tywin I imagine was quite happy with his Daughter as Queen and Grandson first in the line of succession.  

The bolded is not correct.  Robert was already away hunting when Cersei was confronted by Ned.  Thus, she had already given instructions to Lancel by this time

20 hours ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

And yes, I do believe Gendry has a blood right to the throne. Just as much as Jon Snow has to Winterfell. Neither character has been legitimized. They both have bastard names, but the North following Jon gas set a precident. If the dissenfranchised people of Kings Landing view Gendry in the same way he could lead a populist revolt against Cerci. With the Death of Stannis he has the best claim. There's no doubt he would win the support of the common people given what Cerci has done. Plus she has Zero right to the Throne.  Add to that the long running partnership between the Starks and the Baratheons and Gendry could verry well gain Jon's support. It can happen.

I've got not problem with Gendry or even Baratheons (Stannis is a great and tragic character), but I don't see it as at all realistic that Gendry would decide to crown himself king (or be declared king by anyone).  He's simply not a leader but a follower and always has been.  Furthermore I don't think it would be in character for him to resist Daenerys in any way if she came to claim the IT, either before or after Cersei is gone.  

If Gendry leads some kind of uprising I suspect he could be appointed as Lord of Storm's End by Daenerys or Jon.    

[Jon Snow Nothing]

On 24/08/2016 at 9:30 PM, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

You make some good points. I did forget about the Iron Islands rebellion. I just see that more a result of the Ironborn beeing dicks than of Robert's policies. I'll agree that Robert had issues. He wasn't perfect. But to me he had the major qualities I would want in a monarch. He was strong but not cruel. You can't say he wasn't strong. He destroyed nearly all of the Targarians and won the throne. I don't believe he was Tywin's puppet. There was no grand conspiracy. Cerci orchistrated his death only in response to Ned Stark confronting her. Tywin I imagine was quite happy with his Daughter as Queen and Grandson first in the line of succession.  And yes, I do believe Gendry has a blood right to the throne. Just as much as Jon Snow has to Winterfell. Neither character has been legitimized. They both have bastard names, but the North following Jon gas set a precident. If the dissenfranchised people of Kings Landing view Gendry in the same way he could lead a populist revolt against Cerci. With the Death of Stannis he has the best claim. There's no doubt he would win the support of the common people given what Cerci has done. Plus she has Zero right to the Throne.  Add to that the long running partnership between the Starks and the Baratheons and Gendry could verry well gain Jon's support. It can happen.

Well, even Robert himself admits he was not made to be a King, and he regrets accepting the throne... Oh, such a great King. He let others do the hard work for him and all he did was drink, eat, hunt, and, well, you know what else. And shrug and walk away when someone did something really bad, like killing children and women (after rape). A good monarch would never accept the killing of the Targaryen children, they should have been deported. And I don't even want to talk about the rape and killing of an innocent mother, Elia Martell. He did the same with Lady, Sansa's direwolf. All he needed to do was to tell Cersei to shut up and Joffrey to stop whining, but he did let Ned kill the wolf, after watching the Stark kids all over Winterfell raising their puppies. I don't like Robert, not a bit, I don't hate him like I hate some other characters, but he was physically strong, but acted as a spoiled child, very weak personality.

I didn't ask if you think Gendry has a right to the throne, you obviously do think so, but I wonder if this was because he was a good lad or is it because you thought he would be a great King. Jon Snow has had a lot of experience in battles, was Lord Commander of the Night Watch, plus he knows what waits behind the wall, and, although being a huge fan of him, I think that he is too naive to be King.

Gendry is no one, please.

This game is not about "rights to the throne", but who will conquer it. Cersei conquered it - and there are theories she has the right to be on it, after his son died without children. No matter what, it belongs to her now, on the show. To take her out of it you need an army, allies, experience, a good brain, and well, three dragons would help too.

You didn't read the books, right?

 

[Lord Stannis-The True King]

37 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Well, even Robert himself admits he was not made to be a King, and he regrets accepting the throne... Oh, such a great King. He let others do the hard work for him and all he did was drink, eat, hunt, and, well, you know what else. And shrug and walk away when someone did something really bad, like killing children and women (after rape). A good monarch would never accept the killing of the Targaryen children, they should have been deported. And I don't even want to talk about the rape and killing of an innocent mother, Elia Martell. He did the same with Lady, Sansa's direwolf. All he needed to do was to tell Cersei to shut up and Joffrey to stop whining, but he did let Ned kill the wolf, after watching the Stark kids all over Winterfell raising their puppies. I don't like Robert, not a bit, I don't hate him like I hate some other characters, but he was physically strong, but acted as a spoiled child, very weak personality.

I didn't ask if you think Gendry has a right to the throne, you obviously do think so, but I wonder if this was because he was a good lad or is it because you thought he would be a great King. Jon Snow has had a lot of experience in battles, was Lord Commander of the Night Watch, plus he knows what waits behind the wall, and, although being a huge fan of him, I think that he is too naive to be King.

Gendry is no one, please.

This game is not about "rights to the throne", but who will conquer it. Cersei conquered it - and there are theories she has the right to be on it, after his son died without children. No matter what, it belongs to her now, on the show. To take her out of it you need an army, allies, experience, a good brain, and well, three dragons would help too.

You didn't read the books, right?

 

No I havn't read the books. I support Gendry's claim not because I think he's a good guy or will make a good king (although both could very well be true) but because he is the only living true born son of Robert Baratheon. It's just that simple. He has the best claim of all the remaining characters. I see you don't want him on the throne. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. But you can't deny that his claim is the strongest.

 Cerci has no right to the throne. Neither did her children. I also believe you are underestimating the effects of what she has done on public opinion. People already hated her, and many still believe her children were not true Baratheons. Add to it that she essentially killed every representitive from the biggest religion in the area at the same time as destroying one of the most sacred holy monuments while also killing an untold ammount of common people in the surrounding area with the leaders of many noble families including their beoved Queen. There is no way the pople of Kings Landing will support her reign. There will be riots and violence. If Gendry feels the same way (assuming he made it to Kings Landing) as a member of the common people he could use his parantage as a lightning rod to consolodate the people behind him. A common person with noble blood. Didn't Tyrion once say that if the people rose up there would be nothing to stop them from killing everyone in the Red Keep? Their numbers are simply too great. Underestimate their ability at your own peril. 

As far as King Robert goes we'll just have to agree to disagree. War is terrible. Yes, Tywin had Illia Martel raped and murdered. Yes that was wrong. And yes no justice was served. I imagine many, many similar horrors happened not only durring the Rebellion but durring every war ever fought. It is wrong. It is also a fact of life durring wartime. I do feel the need to mention that there were only rumors implicating The Mountain and Tywin. That was why Oberin needed a confession. You can't prosecute someone on mere rumors. And did you really just use the direwolf as an examle of Robert's poor decisions?!  IT'S A FUCKING WOLF!  Who the fuck cares! And he was right. Wolves are dangerous. They aren't pets and should not be in heavily populated areas. That's just common sense.

In any case you do have a point and I agree. Robert was far from perfect. He had many vices. But he kept the Seven Kingdoms together in relative peace after a major rebellion. Look through history and you will find that many times after a violent political change you get chaos interspersed with opportunistic violence from the greedy and the powerful. Rarely do you get immidiate peace after such a massive political revelution. It wasn't all Robert's doing, but he was undoubtedly a major factor in the peace that followed. That means a lot to me. Give credit where it is due. Either Robert lead by example or chose the right people to fill those positions of power and trusted in their abilities. Either way it shows strength and wisdom on his part. But that's obviosly just my view.

[Woman of War]

This isn't a football match!

I do not root for teams, I do not care about Houses and their fate as power entity, be they Stark, Lannister or Targaeryen.

I care about my favorite characters, no matter to which House they belong, I would want a satisfying (I did not dare to write happy) ending for them, and I am not so sure that the Iron throne will still exist. Sitting that ugly and uncomfortable thing a "happy ending" for any character? I don't know though whoever will be on it is at least still alive.

 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

19 hours ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

No I havn't read the books. I support Gendry's claim not because I think he's a good guy or will make a good king (although both could very well be true) but because he is the only living true born son of Robert Baratheon. It's just that simple. He has the best claim of all the remaining characters. I see you don't want him on the throne. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. But you can't deny that his claim is the strongest.

 Cerci has no right to the throne. Neither did her children. I also believe you are underestimating the effects of what she has done on public opinion. People already hated her, and many still believe her children were not true Baratheons. Add to it that she essentially killed every representitive from the biggest religion in the area at the same time as destroying one of the most sacred holy monuments while also killing an untold ammount of common people in the surrounding area with the leaders of many noble families including their beoved Queen. There is no way the pople of Kings Landing will support her reign. There will be riots and violence. If Gendry feels the same way (assuming he made it to Kings Landing) as a member of the common people he could use his parantage as a lightning rod to consolodate the people behind him. A common person with noble blood. Didn't Tyrion once say that if the people rose up there would be nothing to stop them from killing everyone in the Red Keep? Their numbers are simply too great. Underestimate their ability at your own peril. 

As far as King Robert goes we'll just have to agree to disagree. War is terrible. Yes, Tywin had Illia Martel raped and murdered. Yes that was wrong. And yes no justice was served. I imagine many, many similar horrors happened not only durring the Rebellion but durring every war ever fought. It is wrong. It is also a fact of life durring wartime. I do feel the need to mention that there were only rumors implicating The Mountain and Tywin. That was why Oberin needed a confession. You can't prosecute someone on mere rumors. And did you really just use the direwolf as an examle of Robert's poor decisions?!  IT'S A FUCKING WOLF!  Who the fuck cares! And he was right. Wolves are dangerous. They aren't pets and should not be in heavily populated areas. That's just common sense.

In any case you do have a point and I agree. Robert was far from perfect. He had many vices. But he kept the Seven Kingdoms together in relative peace after a major rebellion. Look through history and you will find that many times after a violent political change you get chaos interspersed with opportunistic violence from the greedy and the powerful. Rarely do you get immidiate peace after such a massive political revelution. It wasn't all Robert's doing, but he was undoubtedly a major factor in the peace that followed. That means a lot to me. Give credit where it is due. Either Robert lead by example or chose the right people to fill those positions of power and trusted in their abilities. Either way it shows strength and wisdom on his part. But that's obviosly just my view.

Hey, you didn't read the books and you don't know how stupid Robert Baratheon was, so please, stop writing like this.

Gendry is a bastard, his purpose on the show was to replace another character who was also Rob's bastard but raised in Storm's End, Edric Storm. Gendry is no one.

Yes, I used the poor wolf as an example of how Robert behaved as King. As a spoiled King who would never mind any serious business, everything were done by the council and by his Hand, and whom Cersei manipulated.

You should try to read the books, it gives a whole new dimension to many characters, one of them is Robert Baratheon. Another is Stannis, who is a much better person in the books, and you may relate to him how I relate, having been neglected, ridiculized and bullied by his older brother.

[Newstar]

I kind of feel like it's too late for a Tyrion=Targ reveal. We started getting show-only R+L=J hints in Season 5 (Stannis pointedly commenting that it wasn't Ned Stark's way to dishonour his wife by fathering a bastard). The writers passed up the perfect opportunity in Season 6 to imply that there is something Targish about Tyrion being liked by the dragons, and they did so in such a way as to suggest that they were closing the door on the Tyrion=Targ theory.

And really, from a narrative perspective, what would Tyrion being revealed to be a Targ add to the story? He's already liked by the dragons, just like (undisputed non-Targ) Missandei. He's already liked, respected and trusted by Dany despite his Lannister pedigree. He's already liked by Jon despite his Lannister pedigree. There is no possibility that he could be a legitimate Targ, unlike Jon (since the whole polygamy thing is up in the air), so he would be out of the line of succession for the throne in any event. Even his theoretical right to Casterly Rock doesn't seem to concern Tyrion much in the show anymore, and now that Jaime's been removed from the Kingsguard Jaime is now theoretically ahead of him in the line of succession for Casterly Rock anyway.

As for Tyrion/Sansa awkwardness, Sansa will probably be dead by the time Tyrion makes his way north.

[Lord Stannis-The True King]

1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Hey, you didn't read the books and you don't know how stupid Robert Baratheon was, so please, stop writing like this.

Gendry is a bastard, his purpose on the show was to replace another character who was also Rob's bastard but raised in Storm's End, Edric Storm. Gendry is no one.

Yes, I used the poor wolf as an example of how Robert behaved as King. As a spoiled King who would never mind any serious business, everything were done by the council and by his Hand, and whom Cersei manipulated.

You should try to read the books, it gives a whole new dimension to many characters, one of them is Robert Baratheon. Another is Stannis, who is a much better person in the books, and you may relate to him how I relate, having been neglected, ridiculized and bullied by his older brother.

You do realize the tv show and the books are not the same right? All of my knowledge comes from the show. That's why I only contribute to threads in the tv section of this forum. I can't argue with your interpetation of the character from a book perspective. You may very well be right. I simply don't know. If that is what you wish to discuss I would kindly direct you to the book section of the forum. Here, the only information that should matter is what's provided on the tv show. Hence why the forum is divided as such. To aviod confussion. In any case, thank you for the reading suggestion.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

55 minutes ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

You do realize the tv show and the books are not the same right? All of my knowledge comes from the show. That's why I only contribute to threads in the tv section of this forum. I can't argue with your interpetation of the character from a book perspective. You may very well be right. I simply don't know. If that is what you wish to discuss I would kindly direct you to the book section of the forum. Here, the only information that should matter is what's provided on the tv show. Hence why the forum is divided as such. To aviod confussion. In any case, thank you for the reading suggestion.

So, please, tell me any scene where we see Robert Baratheon as a good King, and not only a drunken spoiled man who can't say no to his own desires even in front of his wife and all people on Winterfell, a man who wants to kill a child (Daenerys) and doesn't listen to Ned.

Tell me please where Gendry is getting real experience of battles and proved to be wise, and how would he prove to be a bastard of a Baratheon (any, since now in the show there is no Baratheon left).

[Lord Stannis-The True King]

13 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

So, please, tell me any scene where we see Robert Baratheon as a good King, and not only a drunken spoiled man who can't say no to his own desires even in front of his wife and all people on Winterfell, a man who wants to kill a child (Daenerys) and doesn't listen to Ned.

Tell me please where Gendry is getting real experience of battles and proved to be wise, and how would he prove to be a bastard of a Baratheon (any, since now in the show there is no Baratheon left).

Firstly, I never made any claims as to Gendry's ability to lead. Secondly, in my hypothetical "Gendry leads the common people" premise they only need to believe he's Robert's son. Proof is not neccessary. Cerci is so hated that I honestly doubt people will think too much about it. But in the event that it's needed Melisandre and Davos know the truth. Along with Arya Stark. They could vouch for him. That could even lead to an endorsement from The King in the North given that Davos advises Jon. 

As far as Robert Baratheon is concerned I've made my case. Like I said we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

8 hours ago, Newstar said:

I kind of feel like it's too late for a Tyrion=Targ reveal. We started getting show-only R+L=J hints in Season 5 (Stannis pointedly commenting that it wasn't Ned Stark's way to dishonour his wife by fathering a bastard). The writers passed up the perfect opportunity in Season 6 to imply that there is something Targish about Tyrion being liked by the dragons, and they did so in such a way as to suggest that they were closing the door on the Tyrion=Targ theory.

And really, from a narrative perspective, what would Tyrion being revealed to be a Targ add to the story? He's already liked by the dragons, just like (undisputed non-Targ) Missandei. He's already liked, respected and trusted by Dany despite his Lannister pedigree. He's already liked by Jon despite his Lannister pedigree. There is no possibility that he could be a legitimate Targ, unlike Jon (since the whole polygamy thing is up in the air), so he would be out of the line of succession for the throne in any event. Even his theoretical right to Casterly Rock doesn't seem to concern Tyrion much in the show anymore, and now that Jaime's been removed from the Kingsguard Jaime is now theoretically ahead of him in the line of succession for Casterly Rock anyway.

2 possible reasons.

1) Being the son of a king - even a bastard - is indeed a form of legitimacy.  Certainly one can be considered to have SOME claim - especially if legitimized by decree.  Which could happen in the case of a Jon-Dany-Tyrion triumverate (if Tyrion is the one who remains behind while the others go north).

2) They may introduce the "who will ride the other dragons" subplot, finally, in Season 7.  In this case, they can add in the book lore about how Valyrian blood is thought to be required.  If they do this, then Tyrion being Aerys son has direct relavence to his ability to ride a dragon.

But, I fully admit it's possible they avoid doing either of these things and Tyrion will just be Tywin's son in the show.  *shrug*.  There have been other "big reveals" that the show runners decided they would toss, just because they just didn't like it or didn't want to deal with it (Stoneheart, Doran's "master plan", etc).  

8 hours ago, Newstar said:

As for Tyrion/Sansa awkwardness, Sansa will probably be dead by the time Tyrion makes his way north.

Sansa is on my endgame "survive" list. But who knows.

[Lord Stannis-The True King]

On August 25, 2016 at 3:38 PM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

The bolded is not correct.  Robert was already away hunting when Cersei was confronted by Ned.  Thus, she had already given instructions to Lancel by this time

I've got not problem with Gendry or even Baratheons (Stannis is a great and tragic character), but I don't see it as at all realistic that Gendry would decide to crown himself king (or be declared king by anyone).  He's simply not a leader but a follower and always has been.  Furthermore I don't think it would be in character for him to resist Daenerys in any way if she came to claim the IT, either before or after Cersei is gone.  

If Gendry leads some kind of uprising I suspect he could be appointed as Lord of Storm's End by Daenerys or Jon.    

Robert was away hunting when Ned confronted her. You say that like it precludes communication over great distances. Birds, notes, and verbal messages delivered via proxy are widly used methods of communication. Plus, come on. Robert couldn't have travled that far. He would not have survived a long trip back to KL.

But the main reason I think this is because of that conversation between Varys and Ned in the dungeon. Varys asked why Ned confronted the queen, he said he hoped she would save her children. Then Varys had that great speech about what really killed Robert. "The wine slowed him down, the boar tore him open, but it was your mercy that killed the king." Something like that anyway. That basically confirms that Cerci killed Robert after being backed into a corner by Ned. That really was her only alternative to running.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

On 8/26/2016 at 3:11 PM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

A good monarch would never accept the killing of the Targaryen children, they should have been deported. And I don't even want to talk about the rape and killing of an innocent mother, Elia Martell.

Not deported, do you know what happened when Aegor Bittersteel fled across the narrow sea with Daemon Blackfyre's surviving children? 4 More Blackfyre rebellions occurred THAT is why Tywin had the Targaryen children killed, to avoid future bloodshed. If anything Robert should of kept Aegon and Rhaenys as hostages (like how Ned took Theon hostage to keep the Ironborn in line, which worked well, until Robb let Theon go home) so that Viserys and Daenerys couldn't come back across the sea with an army. Though let's be honest here Tywin ordered Aegon and Rhaenys' deaths before Ned and Robert even arrived in KL so Robert really had no choice in this matter. It was either completely gain the loyalty of the house that just secured his throne or punish that house (the idiotic Ned stark way) which would not look good on his part and would make him many enemies quickly.

A "good" monarch can be described in many ways. A monarch that is good at what they do wins. A truly "good" monarch is a dead man sooner rather than later. Robert was neither definition of a "good" monarch, who in the end got cuckolded by his brother-in-law and was assassinated by his wife.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

7 hours ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Not deported, do you know what happened when Aegor Bittersteel fled across the narrow sea with Daemon Blackfyre's surviving children? 4 More Blackfyre rebellions occurred THAT is why Tywin had the Targaryen children killed, to avoid future bloodshed. If anything Robert should of kept Aegon and Rhaenys as hostages (like how Ned took Theon hostage to keep the Ironborn in line, which worked well, until Robb let Theon go home) so that Viserys and Daenerys couldn't come back across the sea with an army. Though let's be honest here Tywin ordered Aegon and Rhaenys' deaths before Ned and Robert even arrived in KL so Robert really had no choice in this matter. It was either completely gain the loyalty of the house that just secured his throne or punish that house (the idiotic Ned stark way) which would not look good on his part and would make him many enemies quickly.

A "good" monarch can be described in many ways. A monarch that is good at what they do wins. A truly "good" monarch is a dead man sooner rather than later. Robert was neither definition of a "good" monarch, who in the end got cuckolded by his brother-in-law and was assassinated by his wife.

No choice? So instead of being punished, and it's clearly what Ned wanted, he marrys the Lannisters. He had a choice, he could punish Tywin and Jaime, but in the end it's the money who rules, lol. You must have noticed what the Lannisters represent, they always pay their debts, they wear the color of gold on their heads. Robert, Ned and Jon Arryn were used.

I agree Robert, or Jon Arryn, who was the thinking head on all this, had a difficult choice to make, but if they were to accept the atrocities and treason from the Lannisters, they should have been extra cautious with them. What we see is quite the contrary, Robert never really ruled, and never really had any power.

I have to disagree though, that killing young and innnocent children in a brutal way, and raping and killing a woman that Tywin said "was nothing" was the only way to secure the throne. They wanted Robert on the throne, to manipulate him, ok, but the children were innocent. So what if they could come back and fight for the throne? In the end everything went wrong anyway, and maybe the threat of Aegon and Rhaenys could keep the King less neglectful. If the Kingdom can't fight for their peace, there is no peace. They would have to wait a long time, more than Viserys, to come back, and the threat would be good to unite Westeros, and open Robert eyes. But he decided to go blind and in the end Cersei, also very stupidly, gave him bastards, the cause of war of the five Kings.

Joffrey was as cruel as Aerys, and even though Robert was not his blood father, he could have been a father, and teach the boy some things. I blame him for Joffrey's personality. Also, if he had treated his brothers in a better way, without neglecting one and spoiling another, the story could be different. Stannis, if he were Robert's friend, and not resentful, could have joined Renly and even come to rescue Ned Stark. But when Robert died there was no Baratheon strength to rely on, no "warhammer" could get rid of the Lannister poison.

The "idiotic" way of Ned Stark was clearly the most noble. They fought against Aerys Targaryen who was killing innocents, they didn't fight to continue to kill innocent people. We see the "wise" way of the Lannisters when the war begins and through Arya we know what the Lannister's men can do without even thinking of punishiment. Mycah, the butcher's son, was not killed by chance, it was the author showing how justice was made in Robert (Lannisters) era. At least the Targaryens have their madness to blame. Killing innocent people for fun is not my choice of a good monarch. Letting men like Clegane do whatever they thought they could do, and spread terror among the smallfolk, this is not my choice of a good monarch. It makes me sad that some people view the story this way.

 

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

7 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

No choice? So instead of being punished, and it's clearly what Ned wanted, he marrys the Lannisters. He had a choice, he could punish Tywin and Jaime, but in the end it's the money who rules, lol. You must have noticed what the Lannisters represent, they always pay their debts, they wear the color of gold on their heads. Robert, Ned and Jon Arryn were used.

I agree Robert, or Jon Arryn, who was the thinking head on all this, had a difficult choice to make, but if they were to accept the atrocities and treason from the Lannisters, they should have been extra cautious with them. What we see is quite the contrary, Robert never really ruled, and never really had any power.

I have to disagree though, that killing young and innnocent children in a brutal way, and raping and killing a woman that Tywin said "was nothing" was the only way to secure the throne. They wanted Robert on the throne, to manipulate him, ok, but the children were innocent. So what if they could come back and fight for the throne? In the end everything went wrong anyway, and maybe the threat of Aegon and Rhaenys could keep the King less neglectful. If the Kingdom can't fight for their peace, there is no peace. They would have to wait a long time, more than Viserys, to come back, and the threat would be good to unite Westeros, and open Robert eyes. But he decided to go blind and in the end Cersei, also very stupidly, gave him bastards, the cause of war of the five Kings.

Joffrey was as cruel as Aerys, and even though Robert was not his blood father, he could have been a father, and teach the boy some things. I blame him for Joffrey's personality. Also, if he had treated his brothers in a better way, without neglecting one and spoiling another, the story could be different. Stannis, if he were Robert's friend, and not resentful, could have joined Renly and even come to rescue Ned Stark. But when Robert died there was no Baratheon strength to rely on, no "warhammer" could get rid of the Lannister poison.

The "idiotic" way of Ned Stark was clearly the most noble. They fought against Aerys Targaryen who was killing innocents, they didn't fight to continue to kill innocent people. We see the "wise" way of the Lannisters when the war begins and through Arya we know what the Lannister's men can do without even thinking of punishiment. Mycah, the butcher's son, was not killed by chance, it was the author showing how justice was made in Robert (Lannisters) era. At least the Targaryens have their madness to blame. Killing innocent people for fun is not my choice of a good monarch. Letting men like Clegane do whatever they thought they could do, and spread terror among the smallfolk, this is not my choice of a good monarch. It makes me sad that some people view the story this way.

 

When did I say Tywin and co were "good" monarchs either? They are just as bad, they know how to manipulate people and know how to rule through court intrigue but they aren't "good" people which is their fault. Tywin was not a perfect ruler, his fault was that he was too blind to see what his family was actually doing and just "expected" them to fall in line.

There has not been a single "good" monarch in this story yet, they all have their faults. Honor in this world won't get you very far and that is another lesson some seem to forget. The Stark's honor bound way doesn't work in the south and this has been shown many times over. Which is why Jon should never become King nor do I think he will. He's Ned Stark 2.0 he'll be dead like a week after being crowned because there will always be ambitious and ruthless schemers in KL who will easily out maneuver him. You pretty much are picking your poison at this point. None of these people are fit to be good rulers on their own, not Daenerys or Jon. none of them. Only by collaborating and uniting their certain skills can these people successfully rule a Kingdom.

Spend too much time looking for a single "perfect" monarch who is both honorable and who will also successfully scheme behind people's backs in court and your Kingdom will already have collapsed, because honorable people distaste the "Game" and all those who play it as Varys once said..