Theories About the Silent Old Man Jon Refuses to Kill

[M_Tootles]

They don't have to be yours, I'm just looking for any theories regarding the identity of the old man Jon refuses to kill in SOS Jon V. For a variety of reasons I believe that scene is suffused with coded verbiage pointing to the fact that he is very important. So, anyone have (or vaguely remember reading) anything cool/interesting other than The Liddle or the brother of Roose's miller's wife?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't recall any theory but I don't think that he was an important character. But maybe I am wrong and he was a God testing Jon.

[Jon Fossoway]

If GURM didn't even gave him a name and he doesn't get mentioned again, then I doubt he has any relevance save for that very chapter.

The Liddle intrigues me though. He seems to know who Bran was, and he's actually the son of his liege lord, but yet he doesn't give it away. 

[dariopatke]

37 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

 

The Liddle intrigues me though. He seems to know who Bran was, and he's actually the son of his liege lord, but yet he doesn't give it away. 

I was thinking about Liddle, too. But there is a question: if it was Liddle, did he tell anyone else they are alive? And do clansmen know this? 

[Seams]

Excellent topic!

At first I thought that this old man might be someone important in disguise, and that his identity would be revealed and lead to the uncovering of Jon's parenthood or some other plot twist. I'm no longer certain that he will have a specific identity - it's possible he's an important symbolic presence and/or that Jon's failure to kill him was the thing that was necessary for the plot.

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote up some thoughts I had put together on inns. I already thought that the Queenscrown has to have a hidden significance that will become clearer later. When I was working on inns, though, I realized that the old man has taken shelter in the ruined inn. Bran and his travel companions thought about trying to stay in the ruined inn, but decided to go to the Queenscrown instead. If Bran and his group had decided to overnight in the inn, the wildlings would have tried to kill them, too.

Here's a link to my post about inns. The tl;dr summary is that inns seem to be symbolic representations about the history of the Westeros monarchy. The central symbolic inn is the inn at the crossroads, but other inns contribute details to the central history. (The Peach, for instance, may represent Renly and Stannis trying to become successors to Robert; The Inn of the Kneeling Man was built at the spot where Thorrhen Stark gave up his crown to Aegon the Conqueror.)

So this ruined inn in The Gift is at a symbolic "crossroads" where Jon and Bran or Jon and Meera almost cross paths. At one point, Jon thinks one of the Thenns is telling him, "Get back where you belong," and that he wants Jon to get into the ruined inn. Instead, Jon stares at the tower called the Queenscrown and says, "I know this place."

So the old man may be a symbol of Jon's past or his heritage, which most people seem to believe is royal in some way. He refuses to kill the old man. My inn theories are new and only half-baked, but maybe this means that Jon does not feel ready to stay at the inn (= become king) but he doesn't want to entirely "kill" his heritage. The fact that Ygritte does want to kill the old man might symbolize her desire to end this whole "kneeler" culture and do away with the idea of hereditary kings.

Because he is not named, I think the old man could appear again as a symbol. We may see another old man in Jon's arc, especially one that has something to do with an inn. Hmm. I wonder whether Craster falls into the same category of symbols? The Night's Watch men do stay at his home, so there's sort of an inn quality to his compound. In the other post, I explain how the Quiet Isle also seems to have some of the qualities of an inn, so the Elder Brother might be a parallel symbol for the old man. The Elder Brother is the kind of mentor figure who passes along information to the hero (in that case, Brienne). Although the difficult path to the Quiet Isle might make it more comparable to the Queenscrown than to the ruined inn.

If the theories about Jon's Targaryen heritage are correct, the Gift is an important area for him because it's a place where Stark land was given to Queen Alysanne to present to the Night's Watch. All of Jon's heritage and his present identity combined. Another layer of crossroads.

I'll be interested to read other people's ideas about the old man because I would really like to know who he is or what he represents.

[M_Tootles]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Excellent topic!

At first I thought that this old man might be someone important in disguise, and that his identity would be revealed and lead to the uncovering of Jon's parenthood or some other plot twist. I'm no longer certain that he will have a specific identity - it's possible he's an important symbolic presence and/or that Jon's failure to kill him was the thing that was necessary for the plot.

You are onto a lot of the same stuff I'm onto. The symbolism is WAY denser than just "inn" though. It's the details of the inn and so much more. It's unbelievable. I've basically spent 16 hours on pulling apart about 6 pages of Bran and Jon chapters about the town/man. This is one of the most loaded sequences I've ever encountered; it's absolutely nuts. I'll take a look at your piece—you're not the first to note the crossroads connection in general WRT inns. The man IS somebody. I have somebody in mind, too, I'm just curious if anyone else is anywhere near the same place. (This person isn't someone we KNOW, it's someone whose existence we can infer.)

 

ok ...Took a look at yr thing: you touched on a ton of great points. And you're spot on with the apples. You noticed Jon squished one, right? Was Oberyn, Aerys's bastard with the Princess of Dorne, who gets his head smashed like "Aegon" does (but rAegon doesn't), which is the red herring for people who are into the apple code but not digging deep enough. The Gargoyle/Davos thing is spot on as well, and of course drives home thatTyrion's a gargoyle, which drives home that he's a chimera, per my very confident tinfoil that, well, he's a chimera. if/when I get my current thing done the apples and inns might be my next big project, if I can muster the energy. Current thing is just months and months in the making, but we're getting there. (It led to this question, because I was writing about Qhorin/Gerold and that led to some verbiage that ended up pointing at the inn and that just burst wide open with wonderful worms.)

[Dorian Martell]

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

I was thinking about Liddle, too. But there is a question: if it was Liddle, did he tell anyone else they are alive? And do clansmen know this? 

This is one of the foundations of the great northern conspiracy 

[Winter Blues]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Excellent topic!

At first I thought that this old man might be someone important in disguise, and that his identity would be revealed and lead to the uncovering of Jon's parenthood or some other plot twist. I'm no longer certain that he will have a specific identity - it's possible he's an important symbolic presence and/or that Jon's failure to kill him was the thing that was necessary for the plot.

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote up some thoughts I had put together on inns. I already thought that the Queenscrown has to have a hidden significance that will become clearer later. When I was working on inns, though, I realized that the old man has taken shelter in the ruined inn. Bran and his travel companions thought about trying to stay in the ruined inn, but decided to go to the Queenscrown instead. If Bran and his group had decided to overnight in the inn, the wildlings would have tried to kill them, too.

Here's a link to my post about inns. The tl;dr summary is that inns seem to be symbolic representations about the history of the Westeros monarchy. The central symbolic inn is the inn at the crossroads, but other inns contribute details to the central history. (The Peach, for instance, may represent Renly and Stannis trying to become successors to Robert; The Inn of the Kneeling Man was built at the spot where Thorrhen Stark gave up his crown to Aegon the Conqueror.)

So this ruined inn in The Gift is at a symbolic "crossroads" where Jon and Bran or Jon and Meera almost cross paths. At one point, Jon thinks one of the Thenns is telling him, "Get back where you belong," and that he wants Jon to get into the ruined inn. Instead, Jon stares at the tower called the Queenscrown and says, "I know this place."

So the old man may be a symbol of Jon's past or his heritage, which most people seem to believe is royal in some way. He refuses to kill the old man. My inn theories are new and only half-baked, but maybe this means that Jon does not feel ready to stay at the inn (= become king) but he doesn't want to entirely "kill" his heritage. The fact that Ygritte does want to kill the old man might symbolize her desire to end this whole "kneeler" culture and do away with the idea of hereditary kings.

Because he is not named, I think the old man could appear again as a symbol. We may see another old man in Jon's arc, especially one that has something to do with an inn. Hmm. I wonder whether Craster falls into the same category of symbols? The Night's Watch men do stay at his home, so there's sort of an inn quality to his compound. In the other post, I explain how the Quiet Isle also seems to have some of the qualities of an inn, so the Elder Brother might be a parallel symbol for the old man. The Elder Brother is the kind of mentor figure who passes along information to the hero (in that case, Brienne). Although the difficult path to the Quiet Isle might make it more comparable to the Queenscrown than to the ruined inn.

If the theories about Jon's Targaryen heritage are correct, the Gift is an important area for him because it's a place where Stark land was given to Queen Alysanne to present to the Night's Watch. All of Jon's heritage and his present identity combined. Another layer of crossroads.

I'll be interested to read other people's ideas about the old man because I would really like to know who he is or what he represents.

Cool thing about The Peach is that two of Robert's bastards meet there...

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

11 hours ago, Seams said:

<snip>

Wouldn't Queenscrown be a symbol of royalty rather than an inn, though? It's got the royal history, the name, plus it literally has a crown on top of it.

[Seams]

10 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

The man IS somebody. I have somebody in mind, too, I'm just curious if anyone else is anywhere near the same place. (This person isn't someone we KNOW, it's someone whose existence we can infer.)

ok ...Took a look at yr thing: you touched on a ton of great points. And you're spot on with the apples.

I can't wait to read your ideas about the silent old man. I hope you won't just tease us by starting the thread and not sharing your POV.

There are obviously a lot of apples in the books. I think there is a connection to Jon Arryn's, "The seed is strong," final words. Jon eats an apple when he is deserting from the Night's Watch at the end of AGoT, and Baelish eats an apple "down to the seeds" when he is waiting for Ned to come down the narrow path to meet Catelyn at Littlefinger's brothel. At first, I thought maybe it was just straightforward Garden of Eden symbolism, but I think there's more to it.

Brothels and Inns overlap, of course. I have to look at brothels more closely and see if they help to clarify the literary function of inns.

7 hours ago, Winter Blues said:

Cool thing about The Peach is that two of Robert's bastards meet there...

Yes! Robert's presence can be felt in a number of ways at the inns. I cover some of that - including Bella and Gendry - in my post (linked in previous comment) about inns. The inn at the crossroads was called the Bellringer for awhile, which I think might be an allusion to Robert as a member of a "rebel ring." Of course, the Battle of the Bells was also decisive for Robert's rebellion.

53 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Wouldn't Queenscrown be a symbol of royalty rather than an inn, though? It's got the royal history, the name, plus it literally has a crown on top of it.

Yes to this, too! I believe that Alysanne built the Queenscrown to have a private place where she could come visit her illegitimate child (conceived and born during one of the breaks from her otherwise happy marriage to Jaehaerys). I suspect the father was a northern noble but it could be that the child was raised by northern nobles - my guess would be Mormonts or Starks.

But the tower is strongly linked to the inn motif: the inn at the crossroads was originally called The Two Crowns, and referred to Jaehaerys and Alysanne. So a building called the Queenscrown is both a hint about Alysanne having something separate from her husband and a relation to the systematic clues involving inns and crowns. Some of this is in my post about inns.

Maybe Jon and Bran and Meera turning away from the inn and turning to the Queenscrown instead is a symbolic way of showing that they do not subscribe to the Targ or Baratheon view of the monarchy, but will instead find a path to a different kind of leadership.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 minutes ago, Seams said:

There are obviously a lot of apples in the books. I think there is a connection to Jon Arryn's, "The seed is strong," final words. Jon eats an apple when he is deserting from the Night's Watch at the end of AGoT, and Baelish eats an apple "down to the seeds" when he is waiting for Ned to come down the narrow path to meet Catelyn at Littlefinger's brothel. At first, I thought maybe it was just straightforward Garden of Eden symbolism, but I think there's more to it.

Snow White, maybe? I gave Cinderella a quick once-over t'other day to see if anything jumped out, but nothing did. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these old folk/fairy tales had their echoes in ASOIAF. There's something very folkloric about Dany's journeys in particular, albeit filtered through modern storytelling style.

2 minutes ago, Seams said:

Yes to this, too! I believe that Alysanne built the Queenscrown to have a private place where she could come visit her illegitimate child (conceived and born during one of the breaks from her otherwise happy marriage to Jaehaerys). I suspect the father was a northern noble but it could be that the child was raised by northern nobles - my guess would be Mormonts or Starks.

Hmm... I don't know what evidence there is for Alysanne having a bastard, but I do like the idea that she did. It would be quite interesting to see that there was more to Queenscrown than met the eye, and the Mormont connection is especially interesting. I was just speculating t'other day as to why Leyton Hightower would want his daughter to marry Jorah Mormont - perhaps it's because House Mormont had Targaryen blood. (I wonder if this would have an impact on Jorah's relationship with Dany.)

2 minutes ago, Seams said:

But the tower is strongly linked to the inn motif: the inn at the crossroads was originally called The Two Crowns, and referred to Jaehaerys and Alysanne. So a building called the Queenscrown is both a hint about Alysanne having something separate from her husband and a relation to the systematic clues involving inns and crowns. Some of this is in my post about inns.

Hmm... I guess I'll have to try your post about inns, although I don't normally like all this super-deep textual analysis - I think when you take things to that level, you can find proof of anything.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

By the way OP, ask and ye shall receive:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/igrvi/whos_the_random_old_man_in_queenscrown_affc/c23ouyo

[M_Tootles]

6 hours ago, Seams said:

Yes to this, too! I believe that Alysanne built the Queenscrown to have a private place where she could come visit her illegitimate child (conceived and born during one of the breaks from her otherwise happy marriage to Jaehaerys). I suspect the father was a northern noble but it could be that the child was raised by northern nobles - my guess would be Mormonts or Starks.

I gotta reread that stuff now. This is what I'm talkin' bout. Totally spaced that bit, and it's right there, but as I say I came to this in a really wonky way and despite digging for like 12-16 hours I was focused on minutiae, not (suddenly face palm obvious) big picture stuff.

6 hours ago, Seams said:

But the tower is strongly linked to the inn motif: the inn at the crossroads was originally called The Two Crowns, and referred to Jaehaerys and Alysanne. So a building called the Queenscrown is both a hint about Alysanne having something separate from her husband and a relation to the systematic clues involving inns and crowns. Some of this is in my post about inns.

Maybe Jon and Bran and Meera turning away from the inn and turning to the Queenscrown instead is a symbolic way of showing that they do not subscribe to the Targ or Baratheon view of the monarchy, but will instead find a path to a different kind of leadership.

Terrific stuff.

[M_Tootles]

6 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Hmm... I don't know what evidence there is for Alysanne having a bastard, but I do like the idea that she did. It would be quite interesting to see that there was more to Queenscrown than met the eye, and the Mormont connection is especially interesting. I was just speculating t'other day as to why Leyton Hightower would want his daughter to marry Jorah Mormont - perhaps it's because House Mormont had Targaryen blood. (I wonder if this would have an impact on Jorah's relationship with Dany.)

Very glad I made this thread. I know I've found a bunch of stuff where the Mormonts appeared to be odd outliers on deep textual parallel stuff. They wouldn't be odd outliers anymore if this is the case. Need I remind anyone that the heir to the Mormont seat is Alysane Mormont?

[M_Tootles]

6 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

By the way OP, ask and ye shall receive:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/igrvi/whos_the_random_old_man_in_queenscrown_affc/c23ouyo

Yeah, saw this. smh...

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

56 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

Very glad I made this thread. I know I've found a bunch of stuff where the Mormonts appeared to be odd outliers on deep textual parallel stuff. They wouldn't be odd outliers anymore if this is the case. Need I remind anyone that the heir to the Mormont seat is Alysane Mormont?

OH SHIT

Of course, it's spelled slightly differently...

(note to self: when writing a 4 million word fantasy epic, make sure to use lots of divergent spellings to hide clues and to foil any www.asearchoficeandfire.com type websites that spring up in its wake)

55 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

Yeah, saw this. smh...

oh, so that's too out there for you? lol

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just a question OP, have you seen Preston Jacobs' latest video?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

29 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Just a question OP, have you seen Preston Jacobs' latest video?

What, the one about Oberyn? What's the connection?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

What, the one about Oberyn? What's the connection?

My mistake the one before that the What you are missing 3.9.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

My mistake the one before that the What you are missing 3.9.

Ceebs watching. What's the connection to this?

PS Does he do theorising in those what youare missing videos? I just figured he was clueing in book readers