‘Ocean’s 8’: the female-driven caper spinoff

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Sure.  Just understand that this position is an incredibly sexist one. 

It has nothing to do with sexism. It has to do with originality. I would checkout an original female heist movie. I might even check this out if the reviews are good. But I'm going to be wary of it, because it looks like it's part of a hacky trend.

 Another example of this is Superhero movies. I'm a huge comic book nerd. Love superheroes, and have since I was a kid. That said, the genre has become hack. Unless a superhero flick gets good reviews or good word of mouth, I'm probably going to avoid it. The formula is tired, and has become a clear money-grab.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Raja said:

You haven't seen the movie, you haven't seen the trailer. You know nothing about what direction the movie is going to take. All you know is that it's a heist film with an ensemble cast. Maybe wait until you have SOME idea about what the movie is going to be or better yet, wait till you watch the movie? 

I'm with Dr. Pepper on this. 

That bit is fair. You're right, I don't know how this is going to turn out. If indeed it appears to be a solid flick, I would support it. What I don't like is the trend, and it has nothing to do with being sexist. It just seems lazy to me.

[Joe Pesci]

32 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Why?  It's still an Ocean's movie.  Remakes and sequels tend to keep the names, but for some reason a vast number of men seem to think it shouldn't happen when women are involved.

It's a given that women are going to be attacked by sexist commentary (just look at this thread, which is pretty much a perfect mirror of the same misogyny spewing on Twitter about this right now).  That's not a reason to not provide them with equal opportunities.  

Remakes/non related sequels/spinoffs are a tired trend and played out. It has nothing to do with it being a female cast to me, I'm rather bored with so many movies nowadays that have to be tied somehow to an already existing one, it's lazy and used to make a quick buck. I've seen all the Bourne movies with Matt Damon, but not the one with Jeremy Renner because it's lame as hell to use the name as a money ploy instead of using the acting to be the reason for seeing or discussing it. 

 

[Dr. Pepper]

27 minutes ago, Joe Pesci said:

Remakes/non related sequels/spinoffs are a tired trend and played out. It has nothing to do with it being a female cast to me, I'm rather bored with so many movies nowadays that have to be tied somehow to an already existing one, it's lazy and used to make a quick buck. I've seen all the Bourne movies with Matt Damon, but not the one with Jeremy Renner because it's lame as hell to use the name as a money ploy instead of using the acting to be the reason for seeing or discussing it. 

 

This is reasonable and something I agree with.  I don't know why you or Mr. Manhole didn't simply present it this way to start instead of choosing on focusing your commentary on not wanting women entering this previously male-held space. 

Like you, I'm sick of the remake/spinoff/sequel/prequel industry and due to the CW, I'm also sick of the superhero genre.  However, since Hollywood is insistent on giving us such tired crap, I'm glad to see that they are providing women and people of color opportunity to participate.  I hope the women cast in this spinoff are provided good material, at least comparable to what the nearly all male cast received with the Ocean's Eleven remake.  

I'd like to remind everyone that Mad Max Fury Road had a women centered script and it was the greatest film of the franchise and one of the best film's of this decade.  This isn't to suggest that Ocean's 8 will be anywhere in the same realm as Fury Road, but to point out that women in traditionally male spaces and even when they are part of the never ending sequel gimmick can be a great success when provided quality material. 

[all swedes are racist]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

It has nothing to do with sexism. It has to do with originality. I would checkout an original female heist movie. I might even check this out if the reviews are good. But I'm going to be wary of it, because it looks like it's part of a hacky trend.

 Another example of this is Superhero movies. I'm a huge comic book nerd. Love superheroes, and have since I was a kid. That said, the genre has become hack. Unless a superhero flick gets good reviews or good word of mouth, I'm probably going to avoid it. The formula is tired, and has become a clear money-grab.

Right, but the issue is (as several people in this thread have specifically said) the idea that the purposeful --if not calculated-- injection of greater diversity into blockbuster films is the "hacky trend" 

 

[all swedes are racist]

5 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, how about an "original" heist flick with a female cast, written from a female perspective? Fuck reboots. It's tired.

What, forget so soon?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, R'hllors Red Lobster said:

What, forget so soon?

Yeah, I did forget that one. That was a solid, original flick. That's why I mentioned Bridesmaids and other good films that featured female casts. It's not the premise of an all female cast that puts me off, it's the reboot with the hook "yeah, but this time it's an all female cast".   

[all swedes are racist]

11 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, I did forget that one. That was a solid, original flick. That's why I mentioned Bridesmaids and other good films that featured female casts. It's not the premise of an all female cast that puts me off, it's the reboot with the hook "yeah, but this time it's an all female cast".   

Again, the critique should be "it's another reboot"-- the "this times it's an all female cast" should prompt an at least they're trying sentiment. ffs, as a "hacky trend" this one is still really new; to parellel the comic adaptation idea, you're gonna have to suffer a few Ghostriders or Daredevils before you get a Winter Soldier.

[Castel]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Like you, I'm sick of the remake/spinoff/sequel/prequel industry and due to the CW, I'm also sick of the superhero genre.  However, since Hollywood is insistent on giving us such tired crap, I'm glad to see that they are providing women and people of color opportunity to participate.  I hope the women cast in this spinoff are provided good material, at least comparable to what the nearly all male cast received with the Ocean's Eleven remake.  

 

Right, they're not stopping-partly cause a lot of the complaints come from people who either don't go to see movies or will go to see remakes anyway- so I don't really see why I should die on this particular hill.

There are a ton of derivative works people released every day yet these ones always seem to be the ones that become the lightning rods of the discussion.

Hollywood can start with the other 99% of movies first, if they want to be original.

 

 

6 hours ago, Risto said:

I totally get it and I do want to see more women (and variety of minorities) on screen but I am not the sure this is the right way. It feels as the empty gesture. Like "Black Panther" movie and Disney bragging that 80% of the cast will be African-American. Seriously? You are making a movie about imaginary country in southern Africa and the cast is black (apologies if I offended anyone by using it)? Gimme a break. The same thing goes here... But this parading has become such a distasteful practice.

A bit off-topic:

Just to stress out how annoyed I am with this parading of so-called equality. Serbia got its first gay minister and I can feel that the minister in question will be used as a "proof" to how progressive our society is. Well, it isn't. And the fact that Parliament didn't need 2 hours before descending into talk about that, just proves it.

/rant. Thanks for sympathetic ear  

I don't see why the perfect should be the enemy of the good. These movies are good, when they work. 

It's not like it's a given that Black Panther ever had to be made.It's not a race-flipped movie (not that I mind that shoe being on the other foot). Marvel did what they did with every single one of their properties: they took the source material and adapted it. And they didn't feel the need to have Tom Cruise as a stranger in a strange land (no doubt fucking the repressed woman as he learns their ways) or something. They're having the right sort of cast. How is this not a win? Why don't Marvel get to talk about it? They'd get shit if they DID flip the cast.

And, if the movie makes a lot of money those same actors can claim that they're "draws".

Hollywood runs on concepts it can sell now. Why shouldn't minorities get the elevation from them that everyone else does? Like, Jennifer Lawrence was always a talent to watch but it was the mix of THG and X-Men and that O. Russell film that knocked her to the next level. That's why she makes as much if not more than her male costars, or can at least claim to deserve to do so. That's the engine of equality these days. Why shouldn't someone hope to get the same from Black Panther?

I'm not totally sold on the movie. I was raised African so the sort of American wish-fulfillment of it makes me uncomfortable in a way I have a difficulty articulating but I don't see this objection.

 

It seems to me that there's the tangible effort being made here vs. a more nebulous complaint about "pretending we're progressive" and I see no reason why the latter should dominate. Whether or not society is equal someone is putting their money where their mouth is, which is what we constantly ask them to do. All of a sudden that's not good enough? 

 

Frankly, the weight you seem to give to one side (the more nebulous and, tbh, not very pragmatic side) is odd to me.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, R'hllors Red Lobster said:

Again, the critique should be "it's another reboot" the "this times it's an all female cast" should prompt an at least they're trying sentiment. ffs, as a "hacky trend" this one is still really new; to parellel the comic adaptation idea, you're gonna have to suffer a few Ghostriders or Daredevils before you get a Winter Soldier.

Good point, especially regarding the newness of the trend.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I'd like to remind everyone that Mad Max Fury Road had a women centered script and it was the greatest film of the franchise and one of the best film's of this decade.  This isn't to suggest that Ocean's 8 will be anywhere in the same realm as Fury Road, but to point out that women in traditionally male spaces and even when they are part of the never ending sequel gimmick can be a great success when provided quality material. 

 That's a really good catch. I didn't even relate that film to this discussion, but your right, it fits the bill almost perfectly. Now I have to wonder whether or not it was this film that might have sparked the trend. 

[all swedes are racist]

8 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Good point, especially regarding the newness of the trend.  

thanks, but even so, would hope that any criticisms  would (as @Castel said so much better than I could) forgo the focus on new types of faces in leading roles as lodestone for otherwise warranted critique. 

 

[Relic]

6 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Well put me down as someone who "doesn't have the skill" to support another uncreative Hollywood money grab of a fad.

But you have seen every Marvel movie in the theaters? Look, if you want higher quality form Hollywood stop paying it for all the shit it produces. Stop paying for sequels. Stop paying for reboots. Stop paying for carbon cut out movies. Stop paying for dreck and shit and maybe eventually we will get real movies again. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

10 minutes ago, Relic said:

But you have seen every Marvel movie in the theaters? Look, if you want higher quality form Hollywood stop paying it for all the shit it produces. Stop paying for sequels. Stop paying for reboots. Stop paying for carbon cut out movies. Stop paying for dreck and shit and maybe eventually we will get real movies again. 

You are never getting 'real movies' again unfortunately. That age has passed. The death of the DVD and the rise of home viewing has killed off the movie IMO. Now movies have to make massive amounts of money just to get their money back, which is why we have so many 'event' movies now, with franchies and reboots. Its too risky to create a new property. 

Its all about TV these days.

 

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

You are never getting 'real movies' again unfortunately. That age has passed. The death of the DVD and the rise of home viewing has killed off the movie IMO. Now movies have to make massive amounts of money just to get their money back, which is why we have so many 'event' movies now, with franchies and reboots. Its too risky to create a new property. 

Its all about TV these days.

 

There is no reason small budget movies cant be made once again, if enough people rebelled against the current format of Hollywood garbage. So it COULD happen, but yeah, more than likely it wont. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

3 minutes ago, Relic said:

There is no reason small budget movies cant be made once again, if enough people rebelled against the current format of Hollywood garbage. So it COULD happen, but yeah, more than likely it wont. 

Well theres still room for movies to make enormous multiples on their budget. But the way I see it, outright terrible movies like SS can make their money back through sheer marketing spend, so why make the smaller budget ones, its all marketing.

[Castel]

Meh, the middle class of films that aren't blockbusters are getting squeezed but not only are there smaller "real movies" (I would avoid this sort of phrasing) there are still good movies being made. They're more modest but they're there. 

Of course, people going to see movies in theaters and not suddenly railing against a fait accompli they helped perpetuate when someone makes a new Power Rangers and/or "ruining my childhood" would help. 

[Raja]

3 hours ago, Castel said:

Meh, the middle class of films that aren't blockbusters are getting squeezed but not only are there smaller "real movies" (I would avoid this sort of phrasing) there are still good movies being made. They're more modest but they're there.

Yup, there are *plenty* of movies being made that are 'real movies'( what does that even mean though? Original IP?) - you just have to go out and look for them. 

[Mladen]

6 hours ago, Castel said:

I don't see why the perfect should be the enemy of the good. These movies are good, when they work. 

It's not like it's a given that Black Panther ever had to be made.It's not a race-flipped movie (not that I mind that shoe being on the other foot). Marvel did what they did with every single one of their properties: they took the source material and adapted it. And they didn't feel the need to have Tom Cruise as a stranger in a strange land (no doubt fucking the repressed woman as he learns their ways) or something. They're having the right sort of cast. How is this not a win? Why don't Marvel get to talk about it? They'd get shit if they DID flip the cast.

 

I was talking about BP tangentially but here is a thing... Should they be making such a big fuss about having an African cast for the well, movie happening in Africa. That is my problem. That is like announcing soccer match you say: "You will see two teams of eleven players" It should be normal, it should be expected. Well, it isn't and now we are where we are. I do get it is a win, and every single time when we have female category at Oscars being equally strong and competitive as male, I see it as a win. When we hear that movies with women in the center can earn money and even be box office hits, it is a win. When we know that one woman is paid more than (par one) any other actor in Hollywood, that is also a win. And as much as I can see that they are leading us to right direction, it is not that those things also raise whole new set of questions.

Quote

It seems to me that there's the tangible effort being made here vs. a more nebulous complaint about "pretending we're progressive" and I see no reason why the latter should dominate. Whether or not society is equal someone is putting their money where their mouth is, which is what we constantly ask them to do. All of a sudden that's not good enough? 

You know, you may be right... But, for me progressive thinking is when you cast, IDK, Denzel Washington or Will Smith in a role that can be played by IDK, Russel Crowe or George Clooney (just examples). In roles where the race isn't prerequisite. The last several years, at least in Hollywood movies, we see African-American actors and actresses playing more and more roles that are defined by their skin color. Basically less rap and slave movies for them...

[Corvinus85]

Julia Roberts played Danny Ocean's wife (or ex-wife) Tess. If they don't want this to be a reboot, but a spinoff, or sequel of sorts, they should bring her back, and form the team around her, since the character already has the name.