Which Non-Plot Changing Mystery Are You Most Interested In?

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

All that plus Mormont dates it to 500 years where Ice was only 400.

...and Valyria existed for thousands of years before that so I don't really see the issue. Or is your argument that the Mormonts couldn't possibly have gotten a Valyrian Steel sword before the Starks? It's not unlikely. Especially considering the name Ice predates the sword. If the Starks still had a fancy sword named  Ice that had been associated with their family for generations, they'd be in less of a rush to buy into the Valyrian Steel trend. 

[Poupsi]

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

What's the story behind the Payne heraldry?

Yes!!!

I hope we'll finally get it.

[Poupsi]

The two brothers who captained the sister ships Quicksilver and Greyhound seemed sympathetic and invited them into the cabin for a glass of Arbor red. They were so courteous that Dany was hopeful for a time, but in the end the price they asked was far beyond her means, and might have been beyond Xaro's. (ACoK, Dany 5)

Those lines had always mystified me. What could they have asked ?

[Eden-Mackenzie]

1 hour ago, house of dayne said:

Who is brynden blackwood?..besides being lord tytos s son and heir of house blackwood, itself an enigma wrapped in a riddle, nothing is known of him..lucas blackwood is killed at the red wedding, hoster is taken hostage by jamie after tytos bent the knee..but no mention of brynden blackwood the oldest son..dont even know how old he is..blackwoods are deeply mysterious but it seems strange that no one seems to notice that brynden seems to be absent..

It is very curious the Blackwood heir stayed home while almost every other house with an of-age heir sent both heir and lord to war. And Brynden has to be of age, since his younger brother Lucas was. Simplest explanation would be Brynden Blackwood is in a similar situation to Willas Tyrell and is in someway physically unable to go war, but that also seems like something that would have been mentioned. 

I personally think Lord Tytos wanted Hoster to be the hostage. The whole scene where Jaime "picks" Hos reads like one big manipulation, similar to the conversation between Jaime and Jonos Bracken. And if Tytos is up to something with regards to Hoster, he is likely also up to something with Brynden. 

[PrinceHenryris]

6 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Just to say hi!

 Why did Tywin hire Brave Companions and not Golden Company?

The Brave Companions suited Tywin's purposes better than the Golden Company.  Tywin wanted raiders and "foragers" not soldiers.  He wanted troops who would terrorize the Riverlands not troops for his army.  While the Golden Company could do that for the right price, I'm betting the Brave Companions would do it for a lot less.   Why buy a new Mercedes for a "station car"?

Also, Tywin was a veteran of the war against the Ninepenny Kings.  He fought against Maelys and the Golden Company.  Tywin might not have trusted the Golden Company, or, conversely, the Golden Company might not have wanted to do business with Tywin.

 

[dariopatke]

3 hours ago, PrinceHenryris said:

The Brave Companions suited Tywin's purposes better than the Golden Company.  Tywin wanted raiders and "foragers" not soldiers.  He wanted troops who would terrorize the Riverlands not troops for his army.  While the Golden Company could do that for the right price, I'm betting the Brave Companions would do it for a lot less.   Why buy a new Mercedes for a "station car"?

Also, Tywin was a veteran of the war against the Ninepenny Kings.  He fought against Maelys and the Golden Company.  Tywin might not have trusted the Golden Company, or, conversely, the Golden Company might not have wanted to do business with Tywin.

 

He had raider and foragers. He had Mountains men and Lorch's men, two thousand men is more than enough for that.

He had part of Crownlands and West against North, RR, Reach, part of Crownlands and Stormlands and both Vale amd Dorne were hostile to house Lannister. He needed reliable men as much as he can get and GC is the best by far, he can even promise them some castles.

Why not? What does GC have to do with Tywin? They want home, it is said multiple times and Tywin can get them, he can get them as much gold as they need, too. Why would he trust them? Because of their reputation, why would he trust BC?  Actually they DID turn their cloak.

[MinotaurWarrior]

17 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

He had raider and foragers. He had Mountains men and Lorch's men, two thousand men is more than enough for that.

He had part of Crownlands and West against North, RR, Reach, part of Crownlands and Stormlands and both Vale amd Dorne were hostile to house Lannister. He needed reliable men as much as he can get and GC is the best by far, he can even promise them some castles.

Why not? What does GC have to do with Tywin? They want home, it is said multiple times and Tywin can get them, he can get them as much gold as they need, too. Why would he trust them? Because of their reputation, why would he trust BC?  Actually they DID turn their cloak.

The Wot5K wasn't Tywin's plan. He was harrying the Riverlands to try and draw out Ned Stark out into the field so as to capture him, ransom Tyrion, and perhaps free up the Tower of the Hand. To do that, he needed as much horror as possible. The GC doesn't have a pedophile on retainer AFAIK, and while they're capable of hanging severed body parts around their victim's necks, they'd have much less enthusiasm about it. In the war that actually took place, sure, the GC might have been better, but in the war Tywin was planning based on the idea of his children just playing their parts, his armies were more than sufficient for the actual fighting.

More importantly, however, we know that the GC weren't available. They were on contract in the disputed lands AND involved in an active conspiracy to invade a weakened Westeros so as to restore the rights of the baby Tywin ordered killed, and to avenge the King Tywin's son murdered in foulest betrayal. Even if he sent them a RFP, the GC would have laughed it off. 

[Lord Vance II]

THE OILY BLACK STONE

What happened to Tytos Lannister?

What is in Sothryos?

Is it possible to cross the Sunset Sea?

[King Edd of House Tollet]

Does Septa's Lemore true identity count as non-plot changing?

[Maxxine]

18 minutes ago, King Edd of House Tollet said:

Does Septa's Lemore true identity count as non-plot changing?

 I would put it in the same category of the whereabouts of Tyrek. It's potentially plot changing, but it ultimately could mean nothing. In regards to Septa Lemore I'm leaning more toward that it's not plot changing. I think she's exactly who & what she says she is. At most, she's someone important's baby momma. 

[house of dayne]

7 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

It is very curious the Blackwood heir stayed home while almost every other house with an of-age heir sent both heir and lord to war. And Brynden has to be of age, since his younger brother Lucas was. Simplest explanation would be Brynden Blackwood is in a similar situation to Willas Tyrell and is in someway physically unable to go war, but that also seems like something that would have been mentioned. 

I personally think Lord Tytos wanted Hoster to be the hostage. The whole scene where Jaime "picks" Hos reads like one big manipulation, similar to the conversation between Jaime and Jonos Bracken. And if Tytos is up to something with regards to Hoster, he is likely also up to something with Brynden. 

Tytos seems like the man who would deal from the bottom of the deck...during his negotiation with jamie, no mention is made of brynden..surely, he would be the first choice as hostage to ensure blackwood obedience but since hes not, it implies to me rhat he is not at raventree hall...since there is no mention of him during robbs campaigns, it seems he was not even in the northern armies either..nor is he held hostage by anyone else..where is he? Is he hooking up with the other missing brynden blackfish or does he have another agenda?

[dariopatke]

4 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

The Wot5K wasn't Tywin's plan. He was harrying the Riverlands to try and draw out Ned Stark out into the field so as to capture him, ransom Tyrion, and perhaps free up the Tower of the Hand. To do that, he needed as much horror as possible. The GC doesn't have a pedophile on retainer AFAIK, and while they're capable of hanging severed body parts around their victim's necks, they'd have much less enthusiasm about it. In the war that actually took place, sure, the GC might have been better, but in the war Tywin was planning based on the idea of his children just playing their parts, his armies were more than sufficient for the actual fighting.

More importantly, however, we know that the GC weren't available. They were on contract in the disputed lands AND involved in an active conspiracy to invade a weakened Westeros so as to restore the rights of the baby Tywin ordered killed, and to avenge the King Tywin's son murdered in foulest betrayal. Even if he sent them a RFP, the GC would have laughed it off. 

But the fact that he got sellswprds and assembled army that fast tells us he thought there will be war.But he doesnt need anyone else to forage, he has 2k of them, more than enough. 

No, they actually were aviable, Viserys tried to hire them about that time. Well, about Aegon Tywin didnt know that and Jaime or anyone could have mentioned he tried to hire them. If not them, why nkt Windblown who are 2k strong? GC doesnt fight to avenge crimes Lannister have commited, they fight for home. Jon fights for Aegon and revenge, others have no ill will to Tywin.

[MinotaurWarrior]

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

But the fact that he got sellswprds and assembled army that fast tells us he thought there will be war.But he doesnt need anyone else to forage, he has 2k of them, more than enough. 

No, they actually were aviable, Viserys tried to hire them about that time. Well, about Aegon Tywin didnt know that and Jaime or anyone could have mentioned he tried to hire them. If not them, why nkt Windblown who are 2k strong? GC doesnt fight to avenge crimes Lannister have commited, they fight for home. Jon fights for Aegon and revenge, others have no ill will to Tywin.

The fact that he hired on Qohirik sellswords tells us that he anticipated he'd have a use for sellswords - not that he anticipated a full blown five way (kinda) civil war.

Gregor's 2k can do a lot, but (1) none of them seem to be pedophile septons and (2) They can't rape the entire Riverlands. Remember, as it happens, that Gregor's raid was insufficiently horrific to draw Ned out personally. If Gregor + his dogs had raped fifty towns, maybe that would have outstripped the capability of the likes of Berric and Ned would have had to personally commit for practical reasons. If they had been more horrible, perhaps he would have been too disgusted to sit back in KL knowing what was going on. The last thing to bestir Ned was Balon's Rebellion, which had a lot more than 2k people. 

Thanks for the correction on the timing of the Golden company signing on in the disputed lands. 

The GC is not known to be working for a conspiracy to install fAegon as King in a "restoration of the line of Aerys and Rhaella" so I agree with you that it would have made sense to send them an offer if Tywin was planning on a massive war beyond the Westerlanders' ability to fight. We're on the same page there. I'm just saying that even if I'm wrong and that's exactly what happened, the reason why the GC didn't actually come to fight for Tywin might be because they rejected his offer in preference for the Illyrio Joncon Varys fAegon "Invade the leftovers" plan.

[bent branch]

19 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

I mean the contemporary Arryk and Erryk, Olenna Tyrrell nee Redwyne's bodyguards, and specifically where they get their freakish height.

Also, I'm with you on the cock loving shadow that took Varys' manhood. I'm eagerly anticipating the effects that's going to have on our story. More will be revealed. 

Argh, I forgot about those two.

14 hours ago, Poupsi said:

The two brothers who captained the sister ships Quicksilver and Greyhound seemed sympathetic and invited them into the cabin for a glass of Arbor red. They were so courteous that Dany was hopeful for a time, but in the end the price they asked was far beyond her means, and might have been beyond Xaro's. (ACoK, Dany 5)

Those lines had always mystified me. What could they have asked ?

They asked for such a huge amount of money that Dany doubted even Xaro could afford them.

6 hours ago, King Edd of House Tollet said:

Does Septa's Lemore true identity count as non-plot changing?

I think this depends on what Lemore's true identity is. I think it is Ashara Dayne and will be very plot changing.

[Maxxine]

8 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Argh, I forgot about those two.

They asked for such a huge amount of money that Dany doubted even Xaro could afford them.

I think this depends on what Lemore's true identity is. I think it is Ashara Dayne and will be very plot changing.

This is what I thought (or maybe hoped) at first too but I gone away from that now. The main reason why I don't think it's Ashara Dayne is because she's described as having "hauntingly purple eyes." I think that's the quote or it's something close. It seems like this type of feature is not one that would have been left out by Tyrion. I leaning more toward she's exactly what and who she says she is. Maybe one of Oberyn's babies' mothers, which may be somewhat relevant for Dorne's relationship with Aegon, but not necessarily plot changing imo.

[Raisin' Bran]

My take on Lemore being Ashara Dayne is that it seems unlikely to be the case. With Ashara's ties to Ned Stark and all that, I think that she would have no reason to be supporting Aegon to put him on the throne, as she is probably aware to a degree of Jon's lineage.

The only reason I can think that Ashara would be in Aegon's party is as a mole (spy). But before she would be allowed into the group, Illyrio or Varys would have to vet her. And they would likely stop anyone that might try subterfuge.

[dariopatke]

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

The fact that he hired on Qohirik sellswords tells us that he anticipated he'd have a use for sellswords - not that he anticipated a full blown five way (kinda) civil war.

Gregor's 2k can do a lot, but (1) none of them seem to be pedophile septons and (2) They can't rape the entire Riverlands. Remember, as it happens, that Gregor's raid was insufficiently horrific to draw Ned out personally. If Gregor + his dogs had raped fifty towns, maybe that would have outstripped the capability of the likes of Berric and Ned would have had to personally commit for practical reasons. If they had been more horrible, perhaps he would have been too disgusted to sit back in KL knowing what was going on. The last thing to bestir Ned was Balon's Rebellion, which had a lot more than 2k people. 

Thanks for the correction on the timing of the Golden company signing on in the disputed lands. 

The GC is not known to be working for a conspiracy to install fAegon as King in a "restoration of the line of Aerys and Rhaella" so I agree with you that it would have made sense to send them an offer if Tywin was planning on a massive war beyond the Westerlanders' ability to fight. We're on the same page there. I'm just saying that even if I'm wrong and that's exactly what happened, the reason why the GC didn't actually come to fight for Tywin might be because they rejected his offer in preference for the Illyrio Joncon Varys fAegon "Invade the leftovers" plan.

I believe I read somewhere that Amory's men were bad, Brave Companions were worse and Mountains men were the worst. Ned wasnt driven to war thanks to Jaime, had he not crippled Ned he would have marched on Clegane.

You are right there, there must be something we do not know that made GC break a deal, what did Black Heart sign exactly? Best chance is that Aegon is Illirios kid, and a Blackfyre (why would Illirio care,about HIM, he had Daenerys and Viserys who are grateful and he could prosper with them as much as he could with Aegon, if he is Targ why would GC care that much to break a contract and yes, home is reason, but it is also mentioned that Toyne signed something). I can  see Tywin offering and them declining because of debts in blood, but it would have been nice to mention at least once that Tywin contacted them... or any serious company.

[Poupsi]

9 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

The Wot5K wasn't Tywin's plan. He was harrying the Riverlands to try and draw out Ned Stark out into the field so as to capture him, ransom Tyrion, and perhaps free up the Tower of the Hand.

Seriously ???

That wasn't what Harwin told from the Mummer Ford. If Tywin plan was to ransom anyone in the first place, maybe Gregor Glegane just misunderstood his orders.

Tywin is the first to ready his army, and it wasn't for Tyrion's sake. Maybe Harwin overreacted, but he had the feeling the plan was to kill Ned Stark, which means that Tywin also expected Cersei to murder Robert.

[Poupsi]

4 hours ago, bent branch said:

They asked for such a huge amount of money that Dany doubted even Xaro could afford them.

I think it is unlikely because Xaro is one of the richest men in Quarth, he is even way richer than Illyrio. I don't believe it is about money at all, I'm inclined to think it is a price somehow similar to the price asked by the Tattered Prince. Maybe the Basilisk Isles, or the Isle of Toad. I don't know.

[MinotaurWarrior]

17 hours ago, Poupsi said:

Seriously ???

That wasn't what Harwin told from the Mummer Ford. If Tywin plan was to ransom anyone in the first place, maybe Gregor Glegane just misunderstood his orders.

Tywin is the first to ready his army, and it wasn't for Tyrion's sake. Maybe Harwin overreacted, but he had the feeling the plan was to kill Ned Stark, which means that Tywin also expected Cersei to murder Robert.

Sorry, ransom was the wrong word. Perhaps demand would have been better? IDK what to call it, exactly. He was trying to do the same thing he'd done decades ago when Ellyn Tarbeck abducted three Lannisters - get his kin back and make the abductors regret it. He was the first to arms in the Wot5K almost by coincidence. He had no way of anticipating that the lords of the North and Riverlands would take leave of their senses and thrust a crown upon a young boys head, or that Balon would declare a second rebellion, or that Renly would suddenly come to think himself fit to wear a crown, and I doubt that he knew with any confidence ahead of time that Stannis was going to raise his Banners while the Westermen were out in the field.

I don't place a lot of stock into Harwin's insights into Tywin's plans, because Harwin is a commoner who never even met Tywin. But even if the plan was to kill Ned, that wouldn't mean he was trying to launch the Wot5K. 

17 hours ago, dariopatke said:

I believe I read somewhere that Amory's men were bad, Brave Companions were worse and Mountains men were the worst. Ned wasnt driven to war thanks to Jaime, had he not crippled Ned he would have marched on Clegane.

You are right there, there must be something we do not know that made GC break a deal, what did Black Heart sign exactly? Best chance is that Aegon is Illirios kid, and a Blackfyre (why would Illirio care,about HIM, he had Daenerys and Viserys who are grateful and he could prosper with them as much as he could with Aegon, if he is Targ why would GC care that much to break a contract and yes, home is reason, but it is also mentioned that Toyne signed something). I can  see Tywin offering and them declining because of debts in blood, but it would have been nice to mention at least once that Tywin contacted them... or any serious company.

Yeah, you're right to point out that, ultimately, it was the bad leg that kept Ned in KL.

When would you have expected Tywin to have expounded upon the bidding process leading up to the hiring of the BC?