How And When Did Trystane Get Back to Dorne?

[Cron]

1 hour ago, NutBurz said:

Nope, this is only true in your head. Sand Snakes =/= Dorne.

It´s possible the ship is manned by "Lannisters", I just find it unlikely, since it had been in Dorne for a long while. I´ll be honest to say I´m not familiar how the recruiting works for a "gift-ships" from mother to daughter, but usually a ship is given to a trusted captain who then hires a  crew, and if the ship has stayed in Dorne for years, it´s only natural that a lot of people would be hired there.

Why would it be anywhere but King´s Landing?

(1)  It's true that Sand Snakes don't equal Dorne, but we the viewers have more information than the Lannisters.  We know Ellaria Sand poisoned Myrcella and that Doran and Trystane were NOT involved, but the Lannisters don't know that, and could suspect either or both (yes, even Trystane).  When I said "Dorne" in connection with this issue, I suppose I should have said "people in Dorne, possibly even including members of the royal family."  Part of my very point is that the Lannisters are uncertain about exactly what happened and who is responsible.

(2) I've been assuming the ship was manned by Lannisters b/c a huge part of the reason Cersei sent the ship is b/c she has always felt Myrcella was in danger in Dorne (and rightly so). Why would she send a ship and let the Dornish man it?  I've always believed Cersei sent the ship in very large part so that Myrcella would have an emergency escape ship at her disposal if the need arose, manned by people Cersei and Myrcella trust and who are loyal to Cersei and Myrcella, NOT loyal to Dorne.

(3)  Why would the ship be anywhere but King's Landing (when Trystane was killed), you ask?  Because some people are speculating Jaime may have sent Trystane back to Dorne, so if that was Trystane's ride, then it may have already been back at Dorne when the Sand Snakes boarded it (even if it was a Lannister ship).  

Also, as we've been discussing, we don't know if the ship Jaime and Myrcella left on was the one Cerseit sent or not.  If it WAS, that's one line of analysis. But what if the ship was a Dornish ship that Doran provided to take Jaime, Myrcella and Bronn back to King's Landing?  Well, then I would assume that when they dropped Jaime, Myrcella and Bronn off, they said to Jaime "Later, we're going back to Dorne, cuz that's where we live, and Doran owns this ship, and Trystane is coming with us cuz there's no way we're leaving him here with you under these circumstances, and we outnumber you and Bronn by 30 to 2," or something like that.  After that, they would head back to Dorne, and perhaps had almost arrived when the Sand Snakes boarded (this scenario would also explain how the Sand Snakes were able to gain such easy access: Under this scenario, the ship was close to Dorne and manned by Dornish, so the Sand Snakes just go out to the ship to see Trystane and the Dornish sailors think nothing of it.) 

[NutBurz]

2 hours ago, Cron said:

(1)  It's true that Sand Snakes don't equal Dorne, but we the viewers have more information than the Lannisters.  We know Ellaria Sand poisoned Myrcella and that Doran and Trystane were NOT involved, but the Lannisters don't know that, and could suspect either or both (yes, even Trystane).  When I said "Dorne" in connection with this issue, I suppose I should have said "people in Dorne, possibly even including members of the royal family."  Part of my very point is that the Lannisters are uncertain about exactly what happened and who is responsible.

Doran Martell could have argued against Myrcella being taken back to King´s Landing. He could have argued that Jaime was comitting an act of treason by trying to do undo a diplomatic deal made by the Crown. The reason he doesn´t is because of the clear danger Myrcella is in. It´s not sensible to assume that Doran would order the Sand Snakes to act in a way that lowers his leverage, especially when he also sent his personal guard to stop the Sand Snakes.

Jaime knows that the Sand Snakes were trying to capture Myrcella and Doran not only stopped them but sent her away from them along with his son. He gave up a hostage and provided them with one; assuming he had any intention of killing Myrcella means he was pretty much sacrificing his own son. Not very likely.

2 hours ago, Cron said:

(2) I've been assuming the ship was manned by Lannisters b/c a huge part of the reason Cersei sent the ship is b/c she has always felt Myrcella was in danger in Dorne (and rightly so). Why would she send a ship and let the Dornish man it?  I've always believed Cersei sent the ship in very large part so that Myrcella would have an emergency escape ship at her disposal if the need arose, manned by people Cersei and Myrcella trust and who are loyal to Cersei and Myrcella, NOT loyal to Dorne.

This is a reasonable assumption, I have nothing against that. It´s still not a stretch to assume they could have sneaked into the ship (except for that bigass spear that should have been a knife in that case).

2 hours ago, Cron said:

(3)  Why would the ship be anywhere but King's Landing (when Trystane was killed), you ask?  Because some people are speculating Jaime may have sent Trystane back to Dorne, so if that was Trystane's ride, then it may have already been back at Dorne when the Sand Snakes boarded it (even if it was a Lannister ship).  

Ok, I just find that more unlikely than assuming Trystane remained in his ship in King´s Landing for investigations.

2 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, then I would assume that when they dropped Jaime, Myrcella and Bronn off, they said to Jaime "Later, we're going back to Dorne, cuz that's where we live, and Doran owns this ship, and Trystane is coming with us cuz there's no way we're leaving him here with you under these circumstances, and we outnumber you and Bronn by 30 to 2," or something like that.

Trystane is innocent, he knows the Sand Snakes tried to kill Myrcella before, he loved Myrcella, his and Doran´s best hopes are cooperating with the Lannisters, not running and hiding. That would be very suspicious, it would be the sort of spark that ignites a war. Trystane remaining in King´s Landing maintain the Dornish/Lannister fragile alliance, that is the very reason why the Sand Snakes had to kill him in the first place.

[Cron]

6 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Doran Martell could have argued against Myrcella being taken back to King´s Landing. He could have argued that Jaime was comitting an act of treason by trying to do undo a diplomatic deal made by the Crown. The reason he doesn´t is because of the clear danger Myrcella is in. It´s not sensible to assume that Doran would order the Sand Snakes to act in a way that lowers his leverage, especially when he also sent his personal guard to stop the Sand Snakes.

Jaime knows that the Sand Snakes were trying to capture Myrcella and Doran not only stopped them but sent her away from them along with his son. He gave up a hostage and provided them with one; assuming he had any intention of killing Myrcella means he was pretty much sacrificing his own son. Not very likely.

This is a reasonable assumption, I have nothing against that. It´s still not a stretch to assume they could have sneaked into the ship (except for that bigass spear that should have been a knife in that case).

Ok, I just find that more unlikely than assuming Trystane remained in his ship in King´s Landing for investigations.

Trystane is innocent, he knows the Sand Snakes tried to kill Myrcella before, he loved Myrcella, his and Doran´s best hopes are cooperating with the Lannisters, not running and hiding. That would be very suspicious, it would be the sort of spark that ignites a war. Trystane remaining in King´s Landing maintain the Dornish/Lannister fragile alliance, that is the very reason why the Sand Snakes had to kill him in the first place.

I think you make strong points that could be completely right.  

In fact, it is my hope that everyone reading this thread understands that I'm not claiming other people are wrong on a lot of these issues, OR that I have all the correct answers (far from it).  Actually, my "big picture point" in all of this is that a lot of this stuff is simply unclear, and while I understand story telling is not going to always answer every possible question (and that indeed, some things in story telling are purposely left vague), I just thought there were a few too many things about the death of Trystane that had me scratching my head and going "Whoa, wait, what?"

[Meera of Tarth]

On ‎12‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 8:48 AM, Cron said:

Does anybody know the answer to this question?

In Season 5, when Jaime and Myrcella left Dorne on that ship, Trystane was with them (there is no question about this, not only was it the plan for Trystane to go with them and replace Oberyn on the King's Landing Small Council, but my strong memory is that Jaime and Myrcella discussed and confirmed the fact that he was with them on the ship).

Then Myrcella died (from the poison kiss of Ellaria Sand), and the next time we saw Trystane was in Season 6, and he was...in Dorne, and killed by the Sand Snakes.

Okay, what??  How and when did Trystane get back to Dorne? Did I miss something?  Are we to just assume that after Myrcella died, Jaime had them turn the ship around, went back to Dorne, dropped off Trystane, said "Hey, Myrcella's dead, here's Trystane back, see ya later"?!?!  If so, why would Jaime do that?  Or otherwise let Trystane return in ANY WAY AT ALL?? 

Let's assume Jaime can control his rage and grief long enough to NOT kill Trystane instantly, moments after Myrcella died.  Why would he let him return to Dorne?  Wouldn't he at least keep him as a hostage???  

And once Jaime gets back to King's Landing, okay, I understand there was some trouble that needed to be dealt with there, but after that, why were the Lannisters not headed back to Dorne in force for justice/revenge?  Even after Jaime is removed from the Kingsguard and sent to Riverrun...THIS (taking Riverrun for the Freys) is more important than dealing with the Dornish, who just MURDERED King Tommen's sister???

(And incidentally, although we didn't see much of Trystane before the Sand Snakes crossed him off, he really didn't seem very upset.  Weren't he and Myrcella madly in love??)

All in all, I thought it was pretty clunky story-telling.

Any thoughts on any of this?

I think he was killed in KG's shore. I assumed everyone has left the ship (we ser Jaime with Myrcella's corpse in a boat) but Trystane didn't leave it and maybe wanted to attend the funeral judging by the fact he is painting the eyes on the stones. Jaime night have told him it would be better if he didn't leave the ship (bcause he knows Cersei would go mad at him) and that he would better stay on the ship maybe until the funeral or maybe never leabe ot and return the Dorne.

the sandsnakes sailed from Dorne in another ship a few hours after them and killed him in KG's waters.

[Grizzly A Mormont]

Trystane never made it back to Dorne. He was killed on the boat on the way back to Dorne after Jaime and the deceased Myrcella was dropped off in Kings Landing.

[Cron]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think he was killed in KG's shore. I assumed everyone has left the ship (we ser Jaime with Myrcella's corpse in a boat) but Trystane didn't leave it and maybe wanted to attend the funeral judging by the fact he is painting the eyes on the stones. Jaime night have told him it would be better if he didn't leave the ship (bcause he knows Cersei would go mad at him) and that he would better stay on the ship maybe until the funeral or maybe never leabe ot and return the Dorne.

the sandsnakes sailed from Dorne in another ship a few hours after them and killed him in KG's waters.

Ohh, interesting.  I saw him painting the eyes on the stones, but it didn't even occur to me they could be for Myrcella. (Now that you mention it, I may feel silly.  Do the stones they put on the eyelids of dead people in Westeros normally ahve eyes painted on them? Don't think I've noticed before, or maybe we didn't get a good look at them)

If they were, then yeah, I would think that makes it very likely the ship was just offshore near King's Landing.

Perhaps you've solved it, leaving me with an EXTREME disbelief that the Sand Snakes could board the ship, kill Trystane, and get away again like that. (If the ship stayed at King's Landing after dropping off Jaime, Myrcella and Bronn, I've got to believe that was the ship Cersei had made for Myrcella and was manned by Lannisters, rather than a Dornish ship.  Maybe someone with really sharp eyes, and possibly a familiarity with ships, could answer this part for sure)

[Cron]

1 hour ago, Grizzly A Mormont said:

Trystane never made it back to Dorne. He was killed on the boat on the way back to Dorne after Jaime and the deceased Myrcella was dropped off in Kings Landing.

Maybe.

You could be right.

There have been a number of questions about it, many of which, I think, are still unresolved.

The comment above about the stones he was painting being for Myrcella would seem to make it likely the ship was just offshore near King's Landing (but still not 100%). 

As I've basically mentioned a few times in this thread, I really believe the whole sequence needed at least one or two more scenes to explain what the heck happened. 

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

Overall, the premiere of S6 was an average GoT showing I'd say, somewhere in the middle if I ranked all of the episodes, but there was some pervading stench that got me really worried for the rest of the season and the Trystane scene was one of the prime emitters. It was just such a careless scene that barely made sense on so many levels and it was forced in there only because something needed to happen. This was the beginning of a pattern of similar type offenses seen throughout S6 that I really hadn't seen much of in many of the other seasons. I wonder if D & D just stopped caring after they received some of the criticism of S5, or if they really let it effect their writing? There was just much less care taken in the story telling of S6, it was very disappointing. I still think D & D are better than the showing they had in S6, but I could be wrong.

[Meera of Tarth]

10 hours ago, Cron said:

Ohh, interesting.  I saw him painting the eyes on the stones, but it didn't even occur to me they could be for Myrcella. (Now that you mention it, I may feel silly.  Do the stones they put on the eyelids of dead people in Westeros normally ahve eyes painted on them? Don't think I've noticed before, or maybe we didn't get a good look at them)

If they were, then yeah, I would think that makes it very likely the ship was just offshore near King's Landing.

Perhaps you've solved it, leaving me with an EXTREME disbelief that the Sand Snakes could board the ship, kill Trystane, and get away again like that. (If the ship stayed at King's Landing after dropping off Jaime, Myrcella and Bronn, I've got to believe that was the ship Cersei had made for Myrcella and was manned by Lannisters, rather than a Dornish ship.  Maybe someone with really sharp eyes, and possibly a familiarity with ships, could answer this part for sure)

yes the stones always have eyes in GOT. As far as I rmember the First ones we get to ser are in the pilot; the ones of Jon Arryn.

Don't worry. The whole scene was a bit confusing for me at First too.

[Cron]

21 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

yes the stones always have eyes in GOT. As far as I rmember the First ones we get to ser are in the pilot; the ones of Jon Arryn.

Don't worry. The whole scene was a bit confusing for me at First too.

Good stuff.

I'm not sure we'll ever get to the bottom of some of these other questions, though, like who owned the ship, who manned the ship, et cetera.

Oh well.

[Tim Thomason]

In my mind, there are probably a fair amount of Martell guards on the ship. So, when Myrcella died, there was a very, very tense period of time when the Martell guards were protecting their Prince and the Lannister guards were itching to fight, but an uneasy peace entered in. Probably with Trystane confined to his cabin.

When the ship arrives in King's Landing, Jaime leaves with Myrcella's body, but Trystane is still confined under guard (Martell and Lannister), while the ship is blockaded in Blackwater Bay. The uneasy truce allows Trystane to receive visitors, and his cousins, the Sand Sisters are amongst them. They're just Dornish bastards to Lannister guards, so there's no harm in allowing two of them to enter and the same two to leave (especially since Trystane is a highborn hostage with a personal guard, not a lowborn prisoner).

They do their thing, and no one bothers to check on Trystane until some time after they've left.

[Cron]

6 hours ago, Tim Thomason said:

In my mind, there are probably a fair amount of Martell guards on the ship. So, when Myrcella died, there was a very, very tense period of time when the Martell guards were protecting their Prince and the Lannister guards were itching to fight, but an uneasy peace entered in. Probably with Trystane confined to his cabin.

When the ship arrives in King's Landing, Jaime leaves with Myrcella's body, but Trystane is still confined under guard (Martell and Lannister), while the ship is blockaded in Blackwater Bay. The uneasy truce allows Trystane to receive visitors, and his cousins, the Sand Sisters are amongst them. They're just Dornish bastards to Lannister guards, so there's no harm in allowing two of them to enter and the same two to leave (especially since Trystane is a highborn hostage with a personal guard, not a lowborn prisoner).

They do their thing, and no one bothers to check on Trystane until some time after they've left.

Hmmmm, interesting, you could be right.   The idea that there might have been a mix of Dornish and Lannisters on the ship is intriguing.

Not saying you're wrong (in fact, you might be 100 percent correct), but part of my problem with related scenes in the show is that they just left huge gaps in what was going on.  Your scenario goes a LONG way past information that was actually proviided in order to make sense out of the few glimpses of what we actually saw.  You could be right, but I believe that's just too many jumps to expect the viewer to make, especially since, even though I've mentioned several times you could be right, you could also be wrong in multiple ways. 

[TepidHands]

For that matter, how did they keep Myrcella's body so fresh on the voyage home? 

 

[Cron]

2 hours ago, TepidHands said:

For that matter, how did they keep Myrcella's body so fresh on the voyage home? 

 

Another good issue.

There are SO many unanswered questions about this storyline in the show.

[Masha]

On 8/14/2016 at 10:33 PM, Cron said:

Ohh, interesting.  I saw him painting the eyes on the stones, but it didn't even occur to me they could be for Myrcella. (Now that you mention it, I may feel silly.  Do the stones they put on the eyelids of dead people in Westeros normally ahve eyes painted on them? Don't think I've noticed before, or maybe we didn't get a good look at them)

If they were, then yeah, I would think that makes it very likely the ship was just offshore near King's Landing.

Perhaps you've solved it, leaving me with an EXTREME disbelief that the Sand Snakes could board the ship, kill Trystane, and get away again like that. (If the ship stayed at King's Landing after dropping off Jaime, Myrcella and Bronn, I've got to believe that was the ship Cersei had made for Myrcella and was manned by Lannisters, rather than a Dornish ship.  Maybe someone with really sharp eyes, and possibly a familiarity with ships, could answer this part for sure)

This was not Lannister ship but Dornish ship. When Cersei sent Jaime over to Dorne, she sent him unofficially and she actually said that she can't send an official envoy to get Myrcella, and then Jaime explicitly tells Bronn that they are dressing as mercenaries/merchants and sneaking to Dorne aboard random merchant ship. It was all in season 5. So when Doran Martel sent Jaime and Marcella back, he sent them onboard in his own ship - with Dornish colors. There is no indication that Trystane switched ships between season 5 and 6. In fact, I doubt there was any Lannister guards on that ship unless they boarded at Kings Landing once Jaime disembarked with Myrcella's body.

Its kind of unbelievable, but the show implies that Sand Snakes had Dornish royal guards on their side - allowing them to kill Doran and Aryo. Therefore, based on that assumption, Sand Snakes were allowed by Dornish sailors to get to the Trystane too. 

Also, there was some similarities in views from scenes between ship arriving in Kings Landing location and the scenes that show the ship with its sails furled (meaning its parked in some bay) so,  I always assumed that Jaime asked Trystane to wait on the ship so that Cersei wouldn't lash out to him and since Trystane was painting eye stones for Myrcella's body, I am assuming he was there waiting for her funeral.

 

[Lord Lannister]

The only plot hole I noticed was how did the two Sand Sankes get from Dorne to King's Landing just like that. Beyond that, it just made sense to me that Trystane was on his ship still, and at King's Landing given the screen shot and he was painting blue funeral eyes.

[Cron]

13 minutes ago, Masha said:

This was not Lannister ship but Dornish ship. When Cersei sent Jaime over to Dorne, she sent him unofficially and she actually said that she can't send an official envoy to get Myrcella, and then Jaime explicitly tells Bronn that they are dressing as mercenaries/merchants and sneaking to Dorne aboard random merchant ship. It was all in season 5. So when Doran Martel sent Jaime and Marcella back, he sent them onboard in his own ship - with Dornish colors. There is no indication that Trystane switched ships between season 5 and 6. In fact, I doubt there was any Lannister guards on that ship unless they boarded at Kings Landing once Jaime disembarked with Myrcella's body.

Its kind of unbelievable, but the show implies that Sand Snakes had Dornish royal guards on their side - allowing them to kill Doran and Aryo. Therefore, based on that assumption, Sand Snakes were allowed by Dornish sailors to get to the Trystane too. 

Also, there was some similarities in views from scenes between ship arriving in Kings Landing location and the scenes that show the ship with its sails furled (meaning its parked in some bay) so,  I always assumed that Jaime asked Trystane to wait on the ship so that Cersei wouldn't lash out to him and since Trystane was painting eye stones for Myrcella's body, I am assuming he was there waiting for her funeral.

 

Interesting, but a theory that it was a Lannister ship manned by Lannister men does NOT depend on a claim that it was the ship Jaime and Bronn went to Dorne on. (Indeed, you and I clearly agree it was NOT the ship Jaime and Bronn went to Dorne on)

Rather, I believe, the theory that it was a Lannister ship would rely on a belief that it was the ship Cersei had made as a present for Myrcella, and (presumably) sent to Dorne after we saw that ship, and saw Cersei specifically discussing with Oberyn, in Season 4.  

My original assumption when I first saw the episode where Jaime and Myrcella left Dorne was that they were on THAT ship, which Cersei had sent to Dorne in case Myrcella needed a quick getaway from Dorne (which would support a theory that such a "getaway ship" would be still manned by Lannister men, since the whole reason Cersei sent it in the first place was b/c she didn't trust Dorne)

[Masha]

23 minutes ago, Cron said:

Interesting, but a theory that it was a Lannister ship manned by Lannister men does NOT depend on a claim that it was the ship Jaime and Bronn went to Dorne on. (Indeed, you and I clearly agree it was NOT the ship Jaime and Bronn went to Dorne on)

Rather, I believe, the theory that it was a Lannister ship would rely on a belief that it was the ship Cersei had made as a present for Myrcella, and (presumably) sent to Dorne after we saw that ship, and saw Cersei specifically discussing with Oberyn, in Season 4.  

My original assumption when I first saw the episode where Jaime and Myrcella left Dorne was that they were on THAT ship, which Cersei had sent to Dorne in case Myrcella needed a quick getaway from Dorne (which would support a theory that such a "getaway ship" would be still manned by Lannister men, since the whole reason Cersei sent it in the first place was b/c she didn't trust Dorne)

My premise goes from fact that it had Dornish sails with Sun sigil. If it was a present from Cersei Lannister and they left openly on that ship, why the ship with Dornish sails instead of Lannister or Baratheon?

[Lord Lyman]

nevermind

[Cron]

3 hours ago, Masha said:

My premise goes from fact that it had Dornish sails with Sun sigil. If it was a present from Cersei Lannister and they left openly on that ship, why the ship with Dornish sails instead of Lannister or Baratheon?

Ohhhh sharp eyes!!  Thanks!

I've been wondering if anyone saw something that confirmed where the ship was from, and it sounds like you did.

When did you see some Dornish sigil, when Myrcella was still alive and they were sailing away?