How And When Did Trystane Get Back to Dorne?

[Cron]

Does anybody know the answer to this question?

In Season 5, when Jaime and Myrcella left Dorne on that ship, Trystane was with them (there is no question about this, not only was it the plan for Trystane to go with them and replace Oberyn on the King's Landing Small Council, but my strong memory is that Jaime and Myrcella discussed and confirmed the fact that he was with them on the ship).

Then Myrcella died (from the poison kiss of Ellaria Sand), and the next time we saw Trystane was in Season 6, and he was...in Dorne, and killed by the Sand Snakes.

Okay, what??  How and when did Trystane get back to Dorne? Did I miss something?  Are we to just assume that after Myrcella died, Jaime had them turn the ship around, went back to Dorne, dropped off Trystane, said "Hey, Myrcella's dead, here's Trystane back, see ya later"?!?!  If so, why would Jaime do that?  Or otherwise let Trystane return in ANY WAY AT ALL?? 

Let's assume Jaime can control his rage and grief long enough to NOT kill Trystane instantly, moments after Myrcella died.  Why would he let him return to Dorne?  Wouldn't he at least keep him as a hostage???  

And once Jaime gets back to King's Landing, okay, I understand there was some trouble that needed to be dealt with there, but after that, why were the Lannisters not headed back to Dorne in force for justice/revenge?  Even after Jaime is removed from the Kingsguard and sent to Riverrun...THIS (taking Riverrun for the Freys) is more important than dealing with the Dornish, who just MURDERED King Tommen's sister???

(And incidentally, although we didn't see much of Trystane before the Sand Snakes crossed him off, he really didn't seem very upset.  Weren't he and Myrcella madly in love??)

All in all, I thought it was pretty clunky story-telling.

Any thoughts on any of this?

[Darksky]

Yes, he should have been in the corner crying his eyes out because his chick got killed. Because that's all fictional people do, really nitpicking on a minor character not being devastated enough because of someone dying....

He was killed near King's Landing, not Dorne.

As for not sending a Lannister army against Dorne....you seem to have missed out the Small Council scene in which Jaime and Cersei got shunned. That and also the fact they had bigger issues on their hands with the Riverrun and the Sparrows business. Not enough men and time to juggle three issues simultaneously. They had to prioritise, not stupidly declare a war against a kingdom which not even Targaryens with their dragons conquered.

[A_Man_Is_No_One]

He was killed near King's Landing, the two Sand Snakes were hiding on board the ship.

[Cron]

5 hours ago, Darksky said:

Yes, he should have been in the corner crying his eyes out because his chick got killed. Because that's all fictional people do, really nitpicking on a minor character not being devastated enough because of someone dying....

He was killed near King's Landing, not Dorne.

As for not sending a Lannister army against Dorne....you seem to have missed out the Small Council scene in which Jaime and Cersei got shunned. That and also the fact they had bigger issues on their hands with the Riverrun and the Sparrows business. Not enough men and time to juggle three issues simultaneously. They had to prioritise, not stupidly declare a war against a kingdom which not even Targaryens with their dragons conquered.

(1)  Regarding Trystane's reaction to Myrcellas death:  I'm not saying he has to be a complete wreck, just that I believe it would have been nice to see some kind of impact on him, and I don't think we did.

(2)  He was killed near King's Landing?  Wow, I don't recall any indication of that in the show, and note that he was killed by the Sand Snakes, who were definitely on the shore with Ellaria Sand when the ship sailed away.  If Jaime did not return to Dorne to drop off Trystane, and if Trystane was in King's Landing, I would expect him to have been held as some sort of hostage, under guard (not necessarily in a cell, probably in a decent room as Myrcella was in Dorne).  So, the Sand Snakes travelled all the way to King's Landing, strolled into Trystane's room (almost definitely in some royal building , and which room I would have expected to be guarded), killed Trystane and just strolled back out again?  Was Trystane even surprised to see them when they walked in?  Not that i recall.

(3)  Regarding Jaime and Cersei being shunned at the Small Council:  Yes, but Myrcella was not just Cersei's daughter and Jaime's niece (so far as the Small Council knew),she was King Tommen's sister (as I mentioned above).  I think it's reasonable to expect a reaction from King's Landing, even if ior no other reasons than pride, honor, and a need to show Westeros that won't be taken lightly.

(4) On whether the issues of Riverrun and the Sparrow were "bigger issues" than the death of Myrcella:  In my post above I did mention there was some trouble in King's Landing "that needed to be dealt with, but after that" (and note that I said "after that") I would have expected King's Landing to turn its attention to Dorne  The "trouble" I was referrring to was the Sparrow issue, so I agree with you that the Sparrow issue was bigger than the Dorne issue (indeed, I alluded to it in my post above), but I do not agree about Riverrun being a bogger issue.  Minimally, I would have expected some form of communication to Dorne along the lines of  "Uh, Doran, you wanna try to explain what just happened?"

(5)  Regarding whether the Lannisters should have declared war, and/or why they were not headed back to Dorne in force::  Seems to me there were a variety of options. some (but not all) of which involved declaring war (I believe you mentioned declaring war, not me, while I mentioned sending a "force"). Some options could be a formal declaration of war, with various possibilities about the level of immediate military action.  Countries do sometimes declare war without necessarily trying to immediately launch a full scale invasion, though. Or they could choose to NOT declare war (again, I believe you mentioned declaring war, not me), and then consider possible levels of military response (again,just b/c the Lannisters take action does not necessarily mean it has to be an immediate full scale invasion).  

Also,of course, as far as I know, we are lacking a LOT of information about the relative levels of strength of Dorne versus the Lannisters and Tyrells.  It's possible the strength tips in favor of Dorne. I'm not sure we can be positive about that, though, but in any event, once again, just because an action is taken does not necessarily mean it has to be immediate full scale invasion.  As I've said, there ARE other options, it's not uncommon for a country to take some action without an immediate full scale invasion.

[Cron]

6 hours ago, A_Man_Is_No_One said:

He was killed near King's Landing, the two Sand Snakes were hiding on board the ship.

The Sand Snakes were hiding on board the ship???

I don't think so.  Pretty sure I saw the Sand Snakes on the shore with Ellaria Sand when the ship sailed away.

[Future Null Infinity]

5 minutes ago, Cron said:

The Sand Snakes were hiding on board the ship???

Pretty sure I saw the Sand Snakes on the shore with Ellaria Sand when the ship sailed away.

The popular thoery is that the Sand snakes took another ship after that and followed Jaime's ship to KL and got aboard when Trystane was alone

[dsug]

Obara and Nymeria boarded the ship at some point. 

When Jaime arrives, he leaves Trystane on the boat, probably either to detain him or protect him for Cersei. 

Once Trystane is alone on the ship, Obara and Nymeria reveal themselves and kill him.

Obara and Nymeria leave without being caught. 

[A_Man_Is_No_One]

5 hours ago, Cron said:

The Sand Snakes were hiding on board the ship???

I don't think so.  Pretty sure I saw the Sand Snakes on the shore with Ellaria Sand when the ship sailed away.

Yes you're right I remember them being there now, I thought it was just Tyene standing by Ellaria. Then yeah I'd say they probably took another boat and follow them, boarding the ship sometime while Trystane was docked in KL.

[Cron]

4 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

The popular thoery is that the Sand snakes took another ship after that and followed Jaime's ship to KL and got aboard when Trystane was alone

Wow, I understand you're saying that's just a theory, but it seems like a REAL stretch to me.

Took anothe ship?  Followed Jaime?? Got aboard when Trystane was alone????  Crossed off Trystane and left without anybody noticing until they were gone????

At best, that is leaving the viewer to fill in a LOT of blank space.

Not to mention the fact that if the Sand Snakes are THAT stealthy, why didn't they just do something similar to Myrcella herself while she was a LOT more conveniently available in Dorne itself, rather than doing what the Sand Snakes actually did, which was to loudly and publicly try to kill Myrcella in the Water Gardens in broad daylight??

Again, I know you're just mentioning a theory, but this makes very, very little sense to me and, at best, leaves HUGE holes in the story to be "filled in" with the viewers' imaginations.  My goodness, we're not even sure what country Trystane was in when he was killed!  Don't know if he was on a ship or in some other kind of room!!

I really believe at least one other scene filling in some of this stuff would have been appropriate.

[Future Null Infinity]

1 minute ago, Cron said:

Again, I know you're just mentioning a theory, but this makes very, very little sense to me and, at best, leaves HUGE holes in the story to be "filled in" with the viewers' imaginations.  My goodness, we're not even sure what country Trystane was in when he was killed!  Don't know if he was on a ship or in some other kind of room!!

it was just a theory to fill the plot hole 

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

9 minutes ago, Cron said:

Wow, I understand you're saying that's just a theory, but it seems like a REAL stretch to me.

Took anothe ship?  Followed Jaime?? Got aboard when Trystane was alone????  Crossed off Trystane and left without anybody noticing until they were gone????

At best, that is leaving the viewer to fill in a LOT of blank space.

Not to mention the fact that if the Sand Snakes are THAT stealthy, why didn't they just do something similar to Myrcella herself while she was a LOT more conveniently available in Dorne itself, rather than doing what the Sand Snakes actually did, which was to loudly and publicly try to kill Myrcella in the Water Gardens in broad daylight??

Again, I know you're just mentioning a theory, but this makes very, very little sense to me and, at best, leaves HUGE holes in the story to be "filled in" with the viewers' imaginations.  My goodness, we're not even sure what country Trystane was in when he was killed!  Don't know if he was on a ship or in some other kind of room!!

I really believe at least one other scene filling in some of this stuff would have been appropriate.

The whole Dorne plot in itself is a huge hole in the story. Trying to make sense of it will only lead you to more disappointment 

[Cron]

4 hours ago, dsug said:

Obara and Nymeria boarded the ship at some point. 

When Jaime arrives, he leaves Trystane on the boat, probably either to detain him or protect him for Cersei. 

Once Trystane is alone on the ship, Obara and Nymeria reveal themselves and kill him.

Obara and Nymeria leave without being caught. 

Very interesting, but please see my response above to Future Null Infinity.   Indeed,  you have added to the theory the possibility that Jaime, for some reason I cannot even possibly imagine, left Trystane on the ship after arriving in King's Landing.  It is simply inconceivable to me that Jaime would do such a thing.  Off the charts inconceivable.

I am going to try to re-watch relevant scenes soon to see if f can find further clues to what is even allegedly going on here.

[Cron]

2 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

The whole Dorne plot in itself is a huge hole in the story. Trying to make sense of it will get you nowhere.

Well, I hear you, and I believe you are very much in the majority with that opinion, but actually I kind of liked some of the Dorne stuff in Season 5 (probably b/c I'm a big fan of Jaime and Bronn).  Still, though, when it came to this Trystane stuff at the end, I was left VERY much scratching my head.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

Apart from Oberyn the whole introduction and stories involving Dorne were crap and the murder of Trystane was all over the place.

Firstly as mentioned he left with Jamie and Myrcella with the Snakes still in Dorne,

If they did follow...just how far back would they need to sail to not be seen ? how would they ever had known that he would be left alone on the boat to be able to kill him ? so the plan would most likely had been to get to him while he is living in Kings Landing without being seen... and sneak out again.

Why would Jamie just leave him on there ? and not just for short while but long enough for the Sands to catch up who would have been a good distance behind.... Whether he planned to kill him or keep him as a prisoner Jamie would have had him taken off the ship at the same time as he left it or at the very least under heavy guard expecting a Dorne rescue mission and the moment the ship was seen they would have been on guard and possibly brought more men just incase.

When Trystane first see's the snakes would he not be happy and relieved to see them ? thinking they are there to rescue him and return him home safely ? as he didn't know about his father being killed yet and with Myrcella dead he would now be killed or kept as a prisoner/hostage.

[Cron]

1 hour ago, House_Of_Fraser said:

Apart from Oberyn the whole introduction and stories involving Dorne were crap and the murder of Trystane was all over the place.

Firstly as mentioned he left with Jamie and Myrcella with the Snakes still in Dorne,

If they did follow...just how far back would they need to sail to not be seen ? how would they ever had known that he would be left alone on the boat to be able to kill him ? so the plan would most likely had been to get to him while he is living in Kings Landing without being seen... and sneak out again.

Why would Jamie just leave him on there ? and not just for short while but long enough for the Sands to catch up who would have been a good distance behind.... Whether he planned to kill him or keep him as a prisoner Jamie would have had him taken off the ship at the same time as he left it or at the very least under heavy guard expecting a Dorne rescue mission and the moment the ship was seen they would have been on guard and possibly brought more men just incase.

When Trystane first see's the snakes would he not be happy and relieved to see them ? thinking they are there to rescue him and return him home safely ? as he didn't know about his father being killed yet and with Myrcella dead he would now be killed or kept as a prisoner/hostage.

Yeah, great points, there's SO much here that's unclear.

Minimally, as I said up above, "I  really believe at least one other scene filling in some of this stuff would have been appropriate."

[NutBurz]

If you see a character in Dorne, and some time later (not much) you see them in King´s Landing, what do you suppose happened? They took a ship. Does the series need to show the ship for you to come to that conclusion? No, because you´re able to identify the possible explanations and pick the one that is most likely. They actually could even have ridden there in the back of dragons in that world, but you know that´s not what happened because of other information.

 

Why should they hide their ship? Why should anyone be suspicious of ships "following" them in the horizon in a route like Water Gardens-King´s Landing?

Why should they hide from the ship´s crew if it´s a dornish ship? They would closely afterwards murder their prince in the front of the "royal guard" or whatever, it´s clear the people in general don´t want them to rule.

What does it matter if they kill myrcella at daylight? There was clearly "no one" around (or Jaime wouldn´t show up either). All they wanted was for Myrcella to be found dead in the gardens to make it look like it had been a Martell who did it.

By the way, you´re trying to say that Jaime should declare war on Dorne, which Tywin had been doing a lot to keep in the fold, because some bastard killed his niece? Cersei is "no one", she can´t declare anything, she has to send her brother undercover to do stuff because she can´t declare war, or she totally would have in the first place. If anyone should declare war, it should be the King, but once again, there´s no political reason to do so, the Martells only ever acted in good faith towards them.

 

Regarding throwing Trystane in a cellar, once again, there was no harm done by the Martells. I´m sure Jaime asked him to remain on the ship while investigations went on, at least an autopsy, but Trystane was still a "prince" of dorne.

 

Why would Trystane be happy to see the girls who just tried to kill his future wife??

[AugustusTheGreat]

My guess is that Jaime told Trystane to leave after Myrcella died, because he really has no good reason to be in KL except for the fact that he may be in danger from Cersei. 

Trystane then arrives at Dorne and gets killed. 

[Cron]

Okay, I've now re-watched relevant scenes of Episode 601, and this is my update:

Looks clear that Trystane was killed on a ship.  Whose ship was it? Dunno.  Where was the ship? Dunno.

I believe some people seem to be insisting Trystane was killed in King's Landing (even if it was on a ship there), and/or that we should just assume it was in King's Landing, but that's not clear from what I saw.  Right before the Sand Snakes kill Trystane (the opening shot of that scene), we see the ship from an exterior view, so it now seems clear to me that Trystane was in fact killed on a ship.

But who controlled the ship, Dornish or Lannisters? Dunno.  When Jaime and Myrcella left Dorne, I strongly assumed they were on the ship Cersei had built for Myrcella and sent to Dorne (she discussed it with Oberyn), and that the ship Jaime and Myrcella  was on was thus manned by Lannisters, but I'm not even sure we can be positive about that anymore.

And where was the ship when Trystane was killed? Dunno.  For all we know, the Sand Snakes went out to meet it just off shore of Dorne (in the exterior shot of the ship, we can see land, the ship is at least somewhat close to land, but I saw no indication of what land it was)

Bottom line to me, though, is that, as I've basically said a couple of times, I think there's a LOT that was left unexplained, some of which would be pretty important to understanding what was going on.

I believe some people seem to be assuming that certain things happened or were done a certain way, but I can think of plausible alternative explanations to some of it, while other parts I just simply DO NOT understand (I cannot believe the Lannisters would just let Trystane return to Dorne, for example, OR leave him so poorly guarded on a ship off the coast of King's Landing that Sand Snakes could slip aboard the ship unnoticed, kill Trystane, and leave again without being caught).  Noble hostages are commonly taken in Westeros, and I find it REALLY hard to believe the Lannisters would just surrender that leverage in exchange for nothing, especially since it's REAL likely there's gonna be trouble between Dorne and King's Landing REAL soon, cuz Dorne just murdered the (former) king's sister.

I believe some people seem to think that Dorne is so powerful that King's Landing just has to accept it, but that's not going to happen, I think.  Now that Cersei is on the throne, and Jaime is back and the High Sparrow is eliminated, I strongly believe Cersei's first order of business is going to be addressing what happened to Myrcella in Dorne.  (If that doesn't happen early next season, my jaw is going to drop even further)

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

6 hours ago, NutBurz said:

If you see a character in Dorne, and some time later (not much) you see them in King´s Landing, what do you suppose happened? They took a ship. Does the series need to show the ship for you to come to that conclusion? No, because you´re able to identify the possible explanations and pick the one that is most likely. They actually could even have ridden there in the back of dragons in that world, but you know that´s not what happened because of other information.

Yeah it is obvious that Trystane was on the ship with Jamie and it's obvious Trystane was killed on that ship, the rest is left to guess.

6 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Why should they hide their ship? Why should anyone be suspicious of ships "following" them in the horizon in a route like Water Gardens-King´s Landing?

Because they were given orders by their king to escort them all safely to kings guard and now that the kings sister has just been murdered they would surely be on high alert... and spotting a Sand steering the ship would surely be reason to be suspicious... unless as i said they remained far enough back to be unseen. Remember it's not just Dornish people aboard the ship with Jaime and Trystane but Bronn is also there too...

 

6 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Why should they hide from the ship´s crew if it´s a dornish ship? They would closely afterwards murder their prince in the front of the "royal guard" or whatever, it´s clear the people in general don´t want them to rule.

Because those dornish people are unaware that the Prince is dead so allowing an attempt on Trystane would not fair well for them or their family upon returning to Dorne, and again Bronn would have been on board and spotted them too.

6 hours ago, NutBurz said:

 

 

6 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Regarding throwing Trystane in a cellar, once again, there was no harm done by the Martells. I´m sure Jaime asked him to remain on the ship while investigations went on, at least an autopsy, but Trystane was still a "prince" of dorne.

The kings sister has just been assinated, if the king or Cersei wanted those who commited the act brought to justice they would need the Prince of Dorne to send those guilty to them dead or alive, getting him to do this would be a hard ask not impossible... but as they are relations he may have tried to come to some other outcome.

Having Trystane in their custody was the one bargaining chip they had to get the Sands handed over to them... do you really think Jamie would allow him to remain on a little ship ? a ship he could essentially just sail back to Dorne or be open to attack much more easily then if he was in a room in kings landing ? at the very least that ship would be so heavily guarded that if the Sands had managed to dock... they would have been taken or alarms would be sounded upon there first attack.

6 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Why would Trystane be happy to see the girls who just tried to kill his future wife??

And how would he have known it was his Cousin or Aunt that killed his future wife ? the only time on the show that it is discussed she was in danger was when Jamie was sitting with the Martells discussing taking his niece back home because he feared for her safety he never accused anyone or mentioned the Sands yes he gave them looks... but Trystane was unaware of his Aunt/Cousins plot. So as far as he knew when his cousins arrived on the ship they could have been following to make sure he was okay and there to rescue him after seeing myrcella's body being taken off the ship and realising that he may be in danger.

[NutBurz]

10 hours ago, Cron said:

cuz Dorne just murdered the (former) king's sister.

Nope, this is only true in your head. Sand Snakes =/= Dorne.

10 hours ago, Cron said:

But who controlled the ship, Dornish or Lannisters? Dunno.  When Jaime and Myrcella left Dorne, I strongly assumed they were on the ship Cersei had built for Myrcella and sent to Dorne (she discussed it with Oberyn), and that the ship Jaime and Myrcella  was on was thus manned by Lannisters, but I'm not even sure we can be positive about that anymore.

It´s possible the ship is manned by "Lannisters", I just find it unlikely, since it had been in Dorne for a long while. I´ll be honest to say I´m not familiar how the recruiting works for a "gift-ships" from mother to daughter, but usually a ship is given to a trusted captain who then hires a  crew, and if the ship has stayed in Dorne for years, it´s only natural that a lot of people would be hired there.

10 hours ago, Cron said:

And where was the ship when Trystane was killed?

Why would it be anywhere but King´s Landing?

6 hours ago, House_Of_Fraser said:

Yeah it is obvious that Trystane was on the ship with Jamie and it's obvious Trystane was killed on that ship, the rest is left to guess.

I was actually talking about the Sand Snakes when I asked.

6 hours ago, House_Of_Fraser said:

and spotting a Sand steering the ship would surely be reason to be suspicious.

How would they spot a Sand on a different ship? I don´t understand this, you don´t see the people on other ships, even if they´re closer than the horizon.

6 hours ago, House_Of_Fraser said:

Because those dornish people are unaware that the Prince is dead so allowing an attempt on Trystane would not fair well for them or their family upon returning to Dorne, and again Bronn would have been on board and spotted them too.

My reasoning is that the Sand Snakes can convince the Dornish people that they´re doing the right thing, the same way they convinced Doran´s personal Guard. If Doran´s closest guards clearly had been talked into allowing his death, most other people probably could too, that is the point of showing the Guard´s (non)reaction to it, to make clear that the populace in general in Dorne is not happy with a Martell rule.

6 hours ago, House_Of_Fraser said:

Having Trystane in their custody was the one bargaining chip they had to get the Sands handed over to them

Why would they? The sand snakes are nothing, and Doran Martell had just broken an agreement that favoured himself in order to allow Myrcella to go back to King´s Landing to be far away from the sand snakes that wanted to kill her. You´re asking them to make the prince´s son hostage because of the actions of bastards, which are condemned by the prince.

Doran did more than he had to to try and protect Myrcella and you´re saying they should have insulted him by holding his son prisioner. Cersei, is that you? (just kidding ^^ )

6 hours ago, House_Of_Fraser said:

And how would he have known it was his Cousin or Aunt that killed his future wife ?

Because the very reason he´s in King Landing is that the Sand Snakes had just tried to kill her. Actually, by the point they go into the room armed, it´s very likely his suspicions that they had indeed managed to kill his wife were confirmed.