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Any gay female characters?


Emie

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I have always loved GRRM's inclusion of queer people in his works. And as a queer person, characters like Loras and Renly are awesome to have on the books and on the show, and I truly love his inclusion of them. But what I've also noticed was that in the books and in separate works that he's done for the world of Ice and Fire, SO many male characters have been described as homosexual. But I have yet to see any female homosexuals as well. Why hasn't Martin written any gay women, but focused so much on many gay men? Obviously homosexual people have existed in the world of Ice and Fire since the beginning of time, as well as in our real world. Both males and females obviously. But I haven't seen anything written on known lesbian characters. Unless I'm missing something... Am I wrong and I need to go back and read the novels since it's been so long? 

Has GRRM ever written any female character(s) in the world of Ice and Fire where he might not say the word gay, but had them in a story where they have shown no attraction or interest in men at all, and prefer to be around ladies of the court, or something like that? It would be nice if he did. Asha(Yara) Greyjoy obviously wouldn't count since she's shown to be attracted to men in the books. But in the show they changed her sexuality. In the show, is she gay or bi? She clearly enjoys sex with women but I also remember her openly flirting with her own brother in a previous season. But I also thought she was clearly just messing with his head since she knew he was her brother and she was just showing dominance over. I don't know. I am however quite happy that he has also written bisexual characters like Oberyn Martell and Ellaria Sand. And Dany is most likely one too. So that does make me happy at least. 

Also I wanted to mention that since I was talking about a lack of gay female characters in the books, I know that some of the other characters in the series know about the existence of these gay men. Now I'm wondering if they are aware that homosexual females exist too, or they only think it's a "phenomenom" among men (which would seem ridiculous, because I'm sure they would think it works both ways for all humans, and they had to have seen them with their own eyes). I'm also curious if the male characters who are gay are also aware that gay women exist too. So they don't think that "only" men are 'special' when it comes to attraction. Yes, these may seem like strange thoughts and questions, but as a queer person, I'm curious about these sort of things. :-/ 

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Danaerys is known to let her hand maids please her from time to time...

But I think he makes it more established that a man is gay because it deals with his ability to procreate and further a family line. Obv a gay man can marry a woman but he won't be having any offspring with her.

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GRRM has said that a few of his female characters who try having sex with other females are 'experimenting', and I'm sure Cersei and Dany fall into this category because neither wants to continue it. In the show, D&D may have intended to make Yara as gay, idk, but the actress said that in her view, Yara is open to anything, so she could still show interest in men.

There could be exclusively gay women, but they would be more secretive than gay men, considering the social situation.

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1 hour ago, TheSeer27 said:

Danaerys is known to let her hand maids please her from time to time...

But I think he makes it more established that a man is gay because it deals with his ability to procreate and further a family line. Obv a gay man can marry a woman but he won't be having any offspring with her.

It's not like they're incapable. Far more likely a noble would just get it over and done with that let succession pass to another branch of the family and this is why homsexuality is quite hard to spot, chances are many gay characters in the book would go completely unnoticed because they'd still wed and have children but have to pursue their true interests in a more secretive manner. 

In regards to the OP, well we haven't seen Loras or Renly be overtly gay, it's all implied and secretive because it's taboo. The same would apply to noble women but because of their secondary role in that society the rumour mill wouldn't churn as much. Really the only real inkling is Tyrion's talk with Loras and Jon Con's sexuality is only implied as well, I'd say the thing is GRRM hasn't focused on gay men much at all and sure there's room for gay women but it just hasn't come up in any of the characters he's established yet because it's already such a niche area of the story and one that's quite understated and secretive at that. 

Since marriages are political as well it's harder to tell, you'll never see women married to women so it's harder to bring up naturally in the story unless it's a POV character or one who's relationship is significant enough to garner attention, Loras son of Mace Tyrell and Renly lord of Storm's End for example, the relationships of prominent females would probably go much more understated than that of prominent men. 

No one thinks twice about hand maids, ladies in waiting, courtiers spending lots of time with each other so there's not even much to suspect. This even applies to lords/squires like Loras and Renly but probably to a lesser extent. 

Unless it's a POV or a character interacting with a POV I think it would be much harder to bring up naturally in the narrative. 

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6 hours ago, Emie said:

I have always loved GRRM's inclusion of queer people in his works. And as a queer person, characters like Loras and Renly are awesome to have on the books and on the show, and I truly love his inclusion of them. But what I've also noticed was that in the books and in separate works that he's done for the world of Ice and Fire, SO many male characters have been described as homosexual. But I have yet to see any female homosexuals as well. Why hasn't Martin written any gay women, but focused so much on many gay men? Obviously homosexual people have existed in the world of Ice and Fire since the beginning of time, as well as in our real world. Both males and females obviously. But I haven't seen anything written on known lesbian characters. Unless I'm missing something... Am I wrong and I need to go back and read the novels since it's been so long? 

Has GRRM ever written any female character(s) in the world of Ice and Fire where he might not say the word gay, but had them in a story where they have shown no attraction or interest in men at all, and prefer to be around ladies of the court, or something like that? It would be nice if he did. Asha(Yara) Greyjoy obviously wouldn't count since she's shown to be attracted to men in the books. But in the show they changed her sexuality. In the show, is she gay or bi? She clearly enjoys sex with women but I also remember her openly flirting with her own brother in a previous season. But I also thought she was clearly just messing with his head since she knew he was her brother and she was just showing dominance over. I don't know. I am however quite happy that he has also written bisexual characters like Oberyn Martell and Ellaria Sand. And Dany is most likely one too. So that does make me happy at least. 

Also I wanted to mention that since I was talking about a lack of gay female characters in the books, I know that some of the other characters in the series know about the existence of these gay men. Now I'm wondering if they are aware that homosexual females exist too, or they only think it's a "phenomenom" among men (which would seem ridiculous, because I'm sure they would think it works both ways for all humans, and they had to have seen them with their own eyes). I'm also curious if the male characters who are gay are also aware that gay women exist too. So they don't think that "only" men are 'special' when it comes to attraction. Yes, these may seem like strange thoughts and questions, but as a queer person, I'm curious about these sort of things. :-/ 

Nymeria Sand aka Lady Nym, one of Oberyn's daughter, is noted to have been found in bed with the Fowler twins. Then you look at the Fowler twins and you see that they are female. So it was subtle like Loras and Renly relationship was.

Luckily Lady Nym is on her way to King's Landing and I am sure is looking for a new bedmate with Taena gone. I am sure we shall see more of her in Winds.

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I can't recall her name now, but there was a Targ princess (maybe a queen) who was described as uninterested in male suitors, preferring the company of women.    I'm sure it's in AWOIAF.   Isn't it Morna Whitemask who offers to be Jon's man or woman?   I think the mentions without all the details are prevalent just not glaringly in the readers' faces.   Homosexuality/Bisexuality is simply a matter of fact rather than curiosity in GRRM's world.    

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8 hours ago, Emie said:

Why hasn't Martin written any gay women, but focused so much on many gay men?

GRRM claims to have written lesbian characters:

"I have a number of lesbian and bisexual women in the novels (and a couple who experiment), but Asha is not one of them. [...]" - GRRM LiveJournal

 

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Rhaenys was just not into Aegon's micropenis. 

As for lesbians, I can only think now of Taena, who obviously married lord Merryweather for political issues but enjoy women.

I'm a bisexual too, and so far I can only identify Loras as gay, and MAYBE Taena. We don't know much about her so it's hard to say.

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Quote

[Forrest Frey's] widow, the Lady Sabitha of House Vypren, proved redoubtable for her courage and notorious for her lack of mercy. According to Mushroom, she was a "sharp-featured, sharp-tongued harridan of House Vypren, who would sooner ride than dance, wore mail instead of silk, and was fond of killing men and kissing women.

 

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I once saw a topic about Cersei and Dany's inevitable lesbian S&M relationship, due to various bits of foreshadowing in their character arcs. :lmao:It was hilarious to read.

Seriously though, lots of people in Dorne, and possibly Taena and Sabitha Vypren, but apart from that it would be very hard to spot, given women and girls often shared beds together anyway. I'm sure that a few bored noblewomen might experiment with their bedmaids now and then, like Dany does.

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On August 12, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Falcon2908 said:

Cersei-Taena are bi

I think Cersei is a sexual to be honest. Sex is more of a tool than a desire for her. This is why, I believe, she loved Jamie so much. She is an absolute narcissist and her twin brother was the closest she could get to fucking herself. Anyone else that Cersei has sex with, male or female, I am under the impression that it is similar to Irri diddling the mother of dragons.

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10 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Loras as gay

 

On August 12, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Emie said:

have always loved GRRM's inclusion of queer people in his works. And as a queer person...

I would like to ask a show v book question and am sorry if it is out of turn here, but I think the spirit it is intended for is alright for this forum.

As a bisexual or homosexual I can see why the inclusion of queer couples or characters is something you would be pleased about and, while not homosexual, I love that grrm made it so. In the books, however, the homosexuality between Renly and Loras, while understandable, is not even close to their characters real value. Loras and Renly are indicative of a generation which is too young to have fought in Robert's rebellion or in the Grey Joy rebellion but are old enough to hold prominent positions today (also Theon, Tyrion and many many more).

So while Robert loves Renly as a brother he will never see him as an equal or as a "real man" not because of him being gay but because is is part of this complicated westerosi generation x. Think to when someone asks of Loras...yeah he is good at knocking people off of a horse with a stick, but which battles has he been in which knights has he killed.

Contrast that with the show where, and I think it was such distasteful and poor writing so I will be honest, basically the entire character of Loras and Renly was rooted in their homosexuality.

In the books they were characters with plot and arc and background and meaning and relevance to the world and existential problems and generation issues and......they were also gay. In the show it was just like everything about them was about being gay. It wound up defining them.


So I guess my questions are, and I ask because you too offered your sexuality here so I assume you are comfortable talking about  it (If I am wrong I sincerely apologize) is 1) Do you get this from the books as well and 2) did the reduction to a 1 dimensional character whose entire plot is about being gay strike you as poorly done assuming you said yes to 1

 

Thanks in advance. Also, I always try to abstain from personal issues and keep the focus on planetos but since this was out there I thought I would ask since I have been curious and I totally understand if this isn't a train of discussion you want to pursue 

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On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 3:35 AM, Artos Cold said:

Cersei was pretty "meh" about the whole thing, but Taena did seem to enjoy it, so she might be bi. 

Cersei didn't enjoy the encounter, but her frequent thoughts about how gorgeous and sexy Taena is suggest that she is infatuated with her.  No doubt, Taena's endless flattery has a good deal to do with this. 

Taena certainly seemed to enjoy her encounter with Cersei, although given how avid a social climber she is, it's hard to be entirely sure.

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 2:56 AM, TheSeer27 said:

Danaerys is known to let her hand maids please her from time to time...

But I think he makes it more established that a man is gay because it deals with his ability to procreate and further a family line. Obv a gay man can marry a woman but he won't be having any offspring with her.

Most gay men and women in an aristocratic society would expect to procreate, because of the need to continue their family line.  My understanding is that Martin based the relationship between Renly and Loras on that between Edward of Carnarvon and Piers Gaveston, both of whom fathered children.

Among the Dothraki "pleasuring the Khaleesi" seems to be part of the job description for a handmaid.  Their society is so hypermasculine that they may not even recognise the existence of sexual activity  between women.

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