Jump to content

Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?


Cron

Recommended Posts

On 9/21/2017 at 7:47 AM, StepStark said:

The show didn't cast the prophecy aside, they just rendered everything about it illogical. Cersei wasn't lying because in the same season Robert also mentioned their first child, so it is confirmed that in the show's universe Cersei actually had four children. But by season five they obviously forgot about it and opened the season with the prophecy about three kids.

Well, if they blatantly disregard the prophecy, to me that is casting it aside.

On 9/21/2017 at 7:47 AM, StepStark said:

And by the way, Cerseri in the show can't have an affair with Bronn because the actors hate each other (they were dating or something) and Lena Heady forced D&D to put it in her contract that she can't have any scenes with Jerome Flynn. That's why Bronn left the negotiations scene in the finale before Cersei came to the pit.

Ummm...

(a)  I think you are accepting the "explanation" at face value, and

(b)  Lena Headey and Jerome Flynn have already appeared in a scene together, so whatever your understanding of the matter may be, I don't think it's as ironclad as you think.

On 9/21/2017 at 7:47 AM, StepStark said:

So there you have it: GOT Is a show where authors have no idea how many kids Cersei has in their story, and where things are shaped by actors' whims. Whoever thinks that anything from such a show is better than the books, must think very low of the books actually.

Maybe.  A lot remains to be seen and revealed.  To me, the question is not whether the show is better than the books overall, though (cuz to me it's very clear that the books are better overall), but whether there is "anything" in the show that is better than the books, and I think the answer to that is clearly "yes."  Indeed, even GRRM himself admits if he had it to do over he would age up the kids, so I think anyone who believes the show is better in every way is at odds not only with the vast majority of fans, but with GRRM himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, kimim said:

 

I'm female, and you have a higher opinion of my gender than I do. What you're describing doesn't fit my experience; I've seen more women fuck up relationships and workplaces because they were thinking with their genitalia than men, sadly. I think we underestimate men and overestimate women when it comes to sexuality. Also don't forget that Cersei isn't just a smoking hot woman. She is a very scary, smoking hot woman, the human equivalent of a very attractive but rabid lion, foaming at the mouth.

Hmmm, very interesting, I love to hear about these things from a woman's perspective.

And I hear you about Cersei being the equivalent of a rabid lion, but I don't think Bronn would be deterred. He is VERY cocky.

17 hours ago, kimim said:

(a) and (b) are more the novel Cersei than the show Cersei. The novel Cersei's deal with the Kettleblacks was pathetic, and left her vulnerable to the Faith. The show Cersei is nowhere as stupid as the novel Cersei. I can see her having sex with Euron, as she needs him as an ally, but going for Bronn when she doesn't need to, when doing so can endanger her? She's too calculating. As for (c) having sex with her would not make it easier for Bronn to spy on anyone; if anything, it would make it harder as it makes him more vulnerable. Cersei of the novels gives away secrets to her bedmates. Cersei of the show is almost Tywin with tits, protected by a zombie. Good luck getting anything out of her.

Here's my view on "novel Cersei" vs. "show Cersei."  Unless the show specifically contradicts something from the books, I assume the books are still canon, even for the show.  This is because I do not automatically assume that any change which is made for the show is b/c the show runners wanted to say "this is different," but rather, I strongly believe that many changes are made for far more practical reasons, such as time and budget constraints.

Thus, not only is the character of Cersei not necessarily different, but, for all we know, she may be having sex with the Kettleblacks, too, it's jus that the  show hasn't had time to show it, b/c of far more important things they have to show.

And in my view, having sex with Bronn is not a matter of making anything easier, it's just that,in my view, that would be part of the deal.  Bronn agrees to spy on Jaime and Tyrion and in exchange Cersei gives him sex.  For a lot of guys, that would be plenty of motivation for Bronn, but as you may know I also have a theory that Bronn may have another motive as well, which is to betray ALL of the Lannisters (I have a thread on this, which basically speculates that Bronn is the last living member of House Reyne, and actually hates all the Lannisters, and wants to screw them all over as badly as possible).

17 hours ago, kimim said:

Agree. I don't think Cersei is the "higher bid" for him, however. And then, Bronn is still around. We'll see what he does next season.

Good stuff!  I enjoy talking with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Cron said:

Maybe.  A lot remains to be seen and revealed.  To me, the question is not whether the show is better than the books overall, though (cuz to me it's very clear that the books are better overall), but whether there is "anything" in the show that is better than the books, and I think the answer to that is clearly "yes."  Indeed, even GRRM himself admits if he had it to do over he would age up the kids, so I think anyone who believes the show is better in every way is at odds not only with the vast majority of fans, but with GRRM himself.

Speaking of "accepting things at face value"...

First of all, are you sure that Lena and Jerome ever shared a scene? Not only that I don't remember such a scene, but it looks like nobody on internet does either.

Second, you still didn't answer what I wrote all those weeks ago about ages of characters: was it a change really? Only Bran's and Rickon's age is even mentioned in the show, and in both cases it affected nothing: they're so horribly written that their ages don't really matter, and definitely had no importance. They could've remained 7 and 3 at the beginning of the story, it would change nothing. Ages of other characters are never spoken as I recall, not even Dany's, even though she was the reason for the "change". And it wasn't some storytelling reason, but the fact that British laws prohibit characters that are minors in sex scenes, so they had to age her up and put Robert's Rebellion 17 years in the past instead of 13, but "talented" as they are D&D never actually wrote Dany's age in the show (possibly because they weren't confident that the "change" will work, and maybe because they simply forgot).

So all in all, it's just a thing show fans keep repeating: "I prefer the ages of characters in the show". But it's most probably just something that sounds "objective" to them and that's why they repeat it over and over again, even though it's not even clear if and how the "change" affected anything in the story.

And not that there was anything wrong with the ages of characters in the books. Novels existed for decade and a half before the stupid show came, and I don't remember anyone having problem with ages of characters in the books before show fans started glorifying something they deem an "objective improvement" (though I'd bet that the majority of them didn't even read the books to begin with).

GRRM said many ridiculous things concerning the show. He even said that he prefers Shae in the show, which is something that the actress herself rebutted (she said that she didn't understand the character's motivation to testify against Tyrion in the show and that she'd prefer if Shae didn't really love Tyrion, as it is in the books). Even today, when GRRM doesn't even watch it anymore, he's still careful not to say anything against the damn show. He was and still is too protective of the show, so I wouldn't take his words on face value.

All in all, even if it is a change, you have to thank British laws for it, and not anyone's creativity.

And, I have no problem with being at odds with the vast majority of fans. Vast majority of TV viewers like "reality programs", I don't. That's not an argument for a serious discussion. If your initial question was a serious one, then pure numbers of supporters don't mean much, do they?

If you claim that the aging up of the characters really was an improvement, and want to support that claim objectively, then you'd probably have to bring some specific plot point or character development that looks more convincing with ages in the show than in the books. That is an argument for a serious discussion. And so far, not only in this thread, I never heard any such argument concerning the ages, except what I (of all people) already wrote about Rickon in the books: three-year old kids can't have coherent thoughts on anything really. But considering how Rickon was portrayed in the show, it hardly fixed anything. In fact, they even managed to underachieve with the adaptation of Rickon, which is something I'd think impossible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think GRRM may be "protective" of the show as you say, is due to contractual obligations with HBO. I wouldn't assume they'd allow him to say anything all THAT negative about it. If he's still contractually obliged, which I believe he might be, as HBO did interfere with his desire to do work on a television adaption to that roleplaying game/graphic novel thing he created all those years ago.

As far as the thread question, I wouldn't say I like it better, but certain aspects of show Stannis, I love. I know many people feel that D&D lost the sight or point of Lord Stannis without GRRM's direction, but I do like his to the wind/"ftw"  attitude when it comes to his own safety. Like the Blackwater episode, which GRRM penned himself, and Stannis responds to an official in his armies worry about hundreds dying if they stormed the gates and battlements of Kings Landing, and Stannis replies with "thousands", yet still rallies his men, and is in the front lines and the first one up the walls. His is quickly overshadowed however by Tyrions own bravery in the same episode. And again, during the planned Siege Of Winterfell, after he see's he's heavily outnumbered after losing most of his men for allowing the death of Shireen, and he see's whats coming towards him, he just lets out a breath, pulls out his sword, and walks forward. Badassery at it's finest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/23/2017 at 0:29 PM, StepStark said:

Speaking of "accepting things at face value"...

First of all, are you sure that Lena and Jerome ever shared a scene? Not only that I don't remember such a scene, but it looks like nobody on internet does either.

 

This is probably as meaningful as a first post can get considering how bloody massive this place is; but yes they've shared one scene in the whole show. When Trant and Bronn have a little back and forth? They don't speak or anything and I remember reading it was a hard scene to film but it's there.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Joe Pesci said:

I'll take the character of Locke replacing the ridiculously horrid Vargo Hoat and his zorse any day.

Vargo's ridiculous because of what exactly? Because of lisp? Or because of zorse?

And for some reason Locke, whose arc stopped making any sense the moment it departed from Vargo's role in the story, is not ridiculous? His hunt for Bran is... what.. intelligent? He enlists in the Night's Watch and swears an oath which is, you know, for life, and breaking of which is punishable by death - that makes sense to you? That's somehow smarter than Vargo Hoat and his story, which I don't see anything ridiculous about to be honest, unless you mean that his speech problem and/or his mount are ridiculous?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Фейсал said:

This is probably as meaningful as a first can get considering how bloody massive this place is; but yes they've shared one scene in the whole show. When Trant and Bronn have a little back and forth?They don't speak or anything and I remember reading it was a hard scene to film but it's there.

 

No wonder nobody remembers that, considering that they share the screen for a nanosecond and are separated by two guards and she never even looks at his direction. And if that was a problem to film, it explains why Lena used her diva status to put the clause in the contract.

Again, that says it all about how serious Game of Thrones truly is. Just imagine how some real-deal showrunner would react to such a request from an actor. I'm constantly surprised that anyone might think that a TV show shaped by actors' personal issues and grudges can be in the same universe with ASOIAF.

And of course, thanks for the link.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎23‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 10:29 AM, StepStark said:

Even today, when GRRM doesn't even watch it anymore, he's still careful not to say anything against the damn show. He was and still is too protective of the show, so I wouldn't take his words on face value.

 

Is there any ironclad proof that GRRM doesn't watch the show anymore? Reports on the internet are pretty conflicting when it comes to this.

Either way, GRRM not watching the show isn't some great sign that he doesn't approve of it or that he doesn't like it and sees it as ridiculous television, as there are plenty of people that watched it every week that hate it...*cough*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Is there any ironclad proof that GRRM doesn't watch the show anymore? Reports on the internet are pretty conflicting when it comes to this.

Either way, GRRM not watching the show isn't some great sign that he doesn't approve of it or that he doesn't like it and sees it as ridiculous television, as there are plenty of people that watched it every week that hate it...*cough*

From what i understood he watch the show.

there were initial reports that he did not but it was a translation issue since what he meant was he wasn’t caught up with season 7. Thats the official story at least.

But my bet is he watches the show. He certainly looks happy enough with it when he is carrying home his emmys. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Is there any ironclad proof that GRRM doesn't watch the show anymore? Reports on the internet are pretty conflicting when it comes to this.

If you expect someone to fly to Sana Fe and ask GRRM in person then I'd have to disappoint you, because I'm really not in position to do that and I don't know if anyone actually is. You'll probably have to do with internet sources for now, as unreliable as they might be

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Either way, GRRM not watching the show isn't some great sign that he doesn't approve of it or that he doesn't like it and sees it as ridiculous television,

You must be right. It has to be a great sign that he actually loves the show. If there is a TV "adaptation" of your books, nothing shows your love for it as not watching it.

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

as there are plenty of people that watched it every week that hate it...*cough*

Oh, that's cute. Who do you have in mind, I wonder...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

If you expect someone to fly to Sana Fe and ask GRRM in person then I'd have to disappoint you, because I'm really not in position to do that and I don't know if anyone actually is. You'll probably have to do with internet sources for now, as unreliable as they might be

You realise you've just rendered every comment you mention that George doesn't watch the show void by acknowledging the sources may be 'unreliable'. There are sources out there saying he does watch the show, as @jcmontea points out, so what is it, StepStark? You hate the show, so you chose to believe the negative sources that suggest he doesn't watch it, of course.

None of us are in a position to say whether George watches the show or not, so I'd suggest leaving that out in the future. You back a lot of your problems with the show up very well. When you start throwing in wild comments saying George doesn't watch it based on sources even you think may be unreliable, it makes your hatred for the show just look desperate, which makes it harder to take you seriously when you're criticising it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

You realise you've just rendered every comment you mention that George doesn't watch the show void by acknowledging the sources may be 'unreliable'. There are sources out there saying he does watch the show, as @jcmontea points out, so what is it, StepStark? You hate the show, so you chose to believe the negative sources that suggest he doesn't watch it, of course.

None of us are in a position to say whether George watches the show or not, so I'd suggest leaving that out in the future. You back a lot of your problems with the show up very well. When you start throwing in wild comments saying George doesn't watch it based on sources even you think may be unreliable, it makes your hatred for the show just look desperate, which makes it harder to take you seriously when you're criticising it.

Well, I can tell you from first hand experience that back in season 6, the episode with the anticipated  BenJen/Coldhands reveal, George did not watch. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, I can tell you from first hand experience that back in season 6, the episode with the anticipated  BenJen/Coldhands reveal, George did not watch. 

Can you tell me that he hasn't watch it since, though? There's a big difference from being behind on a show, as he apparently told Entertainment Weekly he is and deciding to stop watching something without an intention to watch it again at all.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/23/george-r-r-martin-watches-game-of-thrones/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Can you tell me that he hasn't watch it since, though? There's a big difference from being behind on a show, as he apparently told Entertainment Weekly he is and deciding to stop watching something without an intention to watch it again at all.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/23/george-r-r-martin-watches-game-of-thrones/

If I had to bet, i would say he watches the show. He is an executive producer on the show and gets excited about how well it does. Hard to think he doesn’t actually watch and this story is a plausible story about him being behind. 

But ultimatley, who cares if he watches the show or not. Doesn’t matter. If you like the show and enjoy it great. If you don’t like the show and don’t enjoy it also great. Whether Martin or anyone else likes the show shouldn’t influence what we think unless we want to be a bunch of sheep. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

But ultimatley, who cares if he watches the show or not. Doesn’t matter. If you like the show and enjoy it great. If you don’t like the show and don’t enjoy it also great. Whether Martin or anyone else likes the show shouldn’t influence what we think unless we want to be a bunch of sheep. 

I would normally agree with you that you shouldn't let other people's opinions sway how you feel about the show; if you like it, that should be all that matters. In this case, though, it is rather different. Someone lacing their negative comments about the show with statements like 'GRRM doesn't even watch it anymore' is a very sneaky and cunning way of trying to prove that disliking the show is the correct stance to have. It's like saying 'if GRRM doesn't like it, then it must be crap'.

I mean, the one person in the world that's opinion on this show would have any kind of influence on how I feel about it would be George, because it's his story, after all. If the writer of the books the show is adapted from doesn't watch it, it suggests he doesn't like it, and if he doesn't like it, then I can't help but think I'd look at the show differently.

I don't think it is fair for anyone to try and back up their opinion on the show with George's opinion, especially if they themselves have only picked up George's opinion from internet sources they admit could be unreliable. Unless you have quotes from George to back it up, leave him out of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

You realise you've just rendered every comment you mention that George doesn't watch the show void by acknowledging the sources may be 'unreliable'. There are sources out there saying he does watch the show, as @jcmontea points out, so what is it, StepStark? You hate the show, so you chose to believe the negative sources that suggest he doesn't watch it, of course.

None of us are in a position to say whether George watches the show or not, so I'd suggest leaving that out in the future. You back a lot of your problems with the show up very well. When you start throwing in wild comments saying George doesn't watch it based on sources even you think may be unreliable, it makes your hatred for the show just look desperate, which makes it harder to take you seriously when you're criticising it.

You obviously missed my sarcasm. I think that those sources were reasonably reliable, and much more reliable than the EW article you linked here. Because that article is completely ridiculous. GRRM didn't travel to Amazon forests, he went to Russia which is a highly sophisticated country with all the convenience of the modern technology. GOT is as accessible from Russia as it is from Santa Fe, especially with HBO GO. So if their explanation is "GRRM didn't watch the show because he was in Russia", that's something that fits the very definition of spinning.

Even if it was true that he didn't watch episodes just because he was traveling, it would strongly suggest that he doesn't care about the show. Because I don't think he'd miss Superbowl just because he's abroad at the time. And also there's what @The Fattest Leech says about the last season. Even if it's just him being behind, it really is a strong signal. He was traveling a lot during the early seasons too, but back then he wasn't behind.

Again, what's truly misleading is EW's article, because they're claiming he's watching the show as if it's a proven fact, when at best it's their conclusion based on earlier experience and circumstantial evidence (bad translation - yeah right, the most convenient excuse ever, and not very convincing given how carefully the translation was handled during GRRM's stay in Russia because of all the political questions that he was asked there). If they had an exact quote or proof, they'd put it in the article, but they couldn't find it. Once more, that speaks a lot.

If you think that my hatred for the show is desperate, that's your right and believe me I have no interest in persuading you otherwise. Because it doesn't really affect me, because the reason why I hate the show shouldn't even be the subject of discussion. Maybe I do hate the show just because I feel some irrational hate toward D&D and I'm envious of their success. But it doesn't matter really, because my points aren't dependent on that. Leave my irrational and desperate hate to me, and deal with the points I make. If you can prove them weak or unsubstantiated or illogical, I'd be happy to read what you have to say. But if your best shot is that internet sources aren't too reliable, and at the same time you back your comment with a very weak and stretched article from a media that's well-known for its loyal support of GOT no matter what, then sorry but I don't think it makes my points any less legitimate.

P.S.  Just to be clear, I'm not really hating anyone or anything, I'm just saying that for he sake of argument. I don't even "hate" the show, I just think that it's utterly stupid and unworthy of any acclaim. And I'm glad if GRRM finally saw it for what it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Someone lacing their negative comments about the show with statements like 'GRRM doesn't even watch it anymore' is a very sneaky and cunning way of trying to prove that disliking the show is the correct stance to have. It's like saying 'if GRRM doesn't like it, then it must be crap'.

 

43 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I don't think it is fair for anyone to try and back up their opinion on the show with George's opinion, especially if they themselves have only picked up George's opinion from internet sources they admit could be unreliable. Unless you have quotes from George to back it up, leave him out of it.

You make a lot of assumptions about my posts, which is even offensive to a degree. Especially because none of your assumptions are true, by the way. I wasn't backing my opinion of the show with GRRM's opinion. I dislike the show practically from the middle of the first season, and at that time GRRM loved the show. Even when I finally decided to start posting here, he was still in love with the show. So I don't need GRRM's opinion to form my own opinion of the show. And I definitely don't need GRRM's or anyone's opinion to back up my opinion of the show - the show's evident stupidity is all the support I need.

But you on the other hand seem to contradict yourself in that regard. First you say this:

4 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Either way, GRRM not watching the show isn't some great sign that he doesn't approve of it or that he doesn't like it and sees it as ridiculous television, as there are plenty of people that watched it every week that hate it...*cough*

And then couple of hours later you say this:

48 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I mean, the one person in the world that's opinion on this show would have any kind of influence on how I feel about it would be George, because it's his story, after all. If the writer of the books the show is adapted from doesn't watch it, it suggests he doesn't like it, and if he doesn't like it, then I can't help but think I'd look at the show differently.

You couldn't be honest in both cases. GRRM not watching the show is either a strong indication, or isn't a strong indication. Make up your mind. Which one is it?

And just a suggestion: in the future, maybe it'd be best if you make up your mind about the subject you want to discuss with me, before you start making unfounded assumptions about why I said what I said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, StepStark said:

You obviously missed my sarcasm. I think that those sources were reasonably reliable, and much more reliable than the EW article you linked here. Because that article is completely ridiculous. GRRM didn't travel to Amazon forests, he went to Russia which is a highly sophisticated country with all the convenience of the modern technology. GOT is as accessible from Russia as it is from Santa Fe, especially with HBO GO. So if their explanation is "GRRM didn't watch the show because he was in Russia", that's something that fits the very definition of spinning.

Even if it was true that he didn't watch episodes just because he was traveling, it would strongly suggest that he doesn't care about the show. Because I don't think he'd miss Superbowl just because he's abroad at the time. And also there's what @The Fattest Leech says about the last season. Even if it's just him being behind, it really is a strong signal. He was traveling a lot during the early seasons too, but back then he wasn't behind.

Again, what's truly misleading is EW's article, because they're claiming he's watching the show as if it's a proven fact, when at best it's their conclusion based on earlier experience and circumstantial evidence (bad translation - yeah right, the most convenient excuse ever, and not very convincing given how carefully the translation was handled during GRRM's stay in Russia because of all the political questions that he was asked there). If they had an exact quote or proof, they'd put it in the article, but they couldn't find it. Once more, that speaks a lot.

If you think that my hatred for the show is desperate, that's your right and believe me I have no interest in persuading you otherwise. Because it doesn't really affect me, because the reason why I hate the show shouldn't even be the subject of discussion. Maybe I do hate the show just because I feel some irrational hate toward D&D and I'm envious of their success. But it doesn't matter really, because my points aren't dependent on that. Leave my irrational and desperate hate to me, and deal with the points I make. If you can prove them weak or unsubstantiated or illogical, I'd be happy to read what you have to say. But if your best shot is that internet sources aren't too reliable, and at the same time you back your comment with a very weak and stretched article from a media that's well-known for its loyal support of GOT no matter what, then sorry but I don't think it makes my points any less legitimate.

P.S.  Just to be clear, I'm not really hating anyone or anything, I'm just saying that for he sake of argument. I don't even "hate" the show, I just think that it's utterly stupid and unworthy of any acclaim. And I'm glad if GRRM finally saw it for what it is.

I'm not taking that article as the gospel, believe me. It's just one of the first that comes up on a google search regarding whether or not he watches the show.

The fact he is behind on the show does suggest he isn't desperate to watch it when it's released, that's true. Look, I'm in no way saying the opposite to you or trying to suggest he loves it. I find it difficult to imagine George would love it given some of the routes it has gone down, especially in the last season. But that's my guess, and I certainly wouldn't use what I assume his opinion might be if I were making a negative point against the show. I just think that's unfair brining him into it, when none of us truly know how he feels and how influentional his opinion on the show would be upon a lot of people.

Just think of the ramifications if he were to come out and say he didn't watch it anymore. The show would lose any credibility it still has left in the eyes of book readers. It would even have an effect on the non-book readers, as anyone knows that if a writer doesn't like an adaptation based on his own work, it's usually a bad sign. Unless it's The Shining.

I only said it made your hatred of the show look desperate by throwing in that George doesn't watch it as if to back up your points. Other than that, I had no problems with any of the other issues you've raised in any of your comments that I've read on this thread. I just think by trying to make it look like you and George are somehow on the same wavelength regarding the show by him not watching it, which we have no proof of, cheapened your otherwise good points.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...