Cron

Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

856 posts in this topic

On 6/16/2017 at 11:56 AM, kimim said:

ita on Arya. Her bits season 6 were terrible, worse, even, than Dorne. They could have fixed it: Jaqen could have explained FM's interest in Arya and the Starks. If magic had been involved in her survival, he could have talked about it then. But no.

Jon, though, worked for me. I loved the fact that season 6 didn't treat him the way it treated Dany. He was not perfect. He was capable of making huge mistakes: he is resurrected, having discovered that "nothing" awaits him after death. He's not happy. He's near-suicidal. Possibly he destroys his own strategy and leads his men to massacre because he no longer cares about strategy, his own life, or his men's lives. He takes a final risk to save Rickon from that "nothing," and fails, falling into Ramsay's trap. He fights, ends up buried under that mass of bodies, then discovers in himself the desire to live, to achieve something, and crawls back up in a second resurrection that (imo) worked better than the first. As for his surviving the battle: it's unlikely, but I'll accept it. Shit happens. Heroes survive. How many unlikely encounters has Tyrion survived? Battle of the Bastards was my favorite episode, ever.

Re Sansa: I think you're right. She does what she does, just because. What frustrates me about it is that the show was on the cusp of finally, FINALLY!!! bringing forth the "new Sansa" it's been talking about for years. It chickened out.

Sansa not telling jon about the vale nights made me want to pull my hair out.

 

Sansa-We don't have enough men.

Jon It's all the men we can get.

If she had told him what happened then jon could have actually planned for it and waited. Instead she hides it an causes thousands to die.

Also who is FM

Edited by snow is the man

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4 hours ago, snow is the man said:
Spoiler

 

Sansa not telling jon about the vale nights made me want to pull my hair out.

 

Sansa-We don't have enough me.

Jon It's all the men we can get.

If she had told him what happened then jon could have actually planned for it and waited. Instead she hides it an causes thousands to die.

 

Also who is FM

FM= Faceless Men.

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On 6/20/2017 at 9:20 PM, snow is the man said:

Sansa not telling jon about the vale nights made me want to pull my hair out.

 

Sansa-We don't have enough men.

Jon It's all the men we can get.

If she had told him what happened then jon could have actually planned for it and waited. Instead she hides it an causes thousands to die.

Also who is FM

Yeah, I think you're right.

In fact, the best theory that I've heard to explain Sansa's otherwise inexplicable behavior is that...she really IS going bad (the theory would hold that she WANTED Ramsay's forces and Jon's forces to annihilate each other as much as possible, so that when the Valemen arrived, SHE would rule the North.)

My opinion?  I'd say it's a coin flip, between her (a) being NOT very smart (to put it kindly), and (b) actually going bad.

I'm pretty sure that if we end up being told there's an option (c), I ain't gonna buy it.

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On June 15, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Cron said:

Great post, great food for thought, I read it all with interest.

I agree with a lot of your opinions, and disagree with some, but hey, that's why we're here I think.

I liked the Dorne stuff in books and show, though (probably in the show cuz I really enjoy Jaime and Bronn scenes), but I strongly agree with you about Hardhome, that was Grade A stuff.

Yeah, Bronn and Jaime are an amusing pair and were definitely the highlights of that particular storyline. My problem with Dorne is that I never cared about the characters introduced there, besides Oberyn,  in both books and show. I'm just glad the show decided to concentrate more on the characters that I grew to love rather than concentrate on characters I found to be uninteresting. Just one man's opinion.

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On June 20, 2017 at 9:15 PM, snow is the man said:

Hardhome in the show is amazing. But to be fair we don't know what will happen in the books

Technically, Hardhome already happened in the books. It just happened off-page.

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7 hours ago, Cron said:

Yeah, I think you're right.

In fact, the best theory that I've heard to explain Sansa's otherwise inexplicable behavior is that...she really IS going bad (the theory would hold that she WANTED Ramsay's forces and Jon's forces to annihilate each other as much as possible, so that when the Valemen arrived, SHE would rule the North.)

My opinion?  I'd say it's a coin flip, between her (a) being NOT very smart (to put it kindly), and (b) actually going bad.

I'm pretty sure that if we end up being told there's an option (c), I ain't gonna buy it.

I think people give her too much credit to be honest. I don't think she planned on having jon die but for some reason didn't trust him. I don't know the whole thing made no sense to me.

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6 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Technically, Hardhome already happened in the books. It just happened off-page.

Not yet. Just before he was getting ready to go he got that pink letter.

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1 hour ago, snow is the man said:

Not yet. Just before he was getting ready to go he got that pink letter.

Well, the massacre already happened. Since Jon was stabbed, I didn't think anything else will occur at Hardhome, though I suppose it's possible.

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9 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Yeah, Bronn and Jaime are an amusing pair and were definitely the highlights of that particular storyline. My problem with Dorne is that I never cared about the characters introduced there, besides Oberyn,  in both books and show. I'm just glad the show decided to concentrate more on the characters that I grew to love rather than concentrate on characters I found to be uninteresting. Just one man's opinion.

I think there are two major reasons people in general don't like the Dorne stuff as much as most of the rest of the story:

(1)  By introducing those characters so late in the series, GRRM created a situation that, while reading about them, many people were just anxious and impatient for the story to get back to the characters they already know and love so well, and that's the lasting impression that's been left with a lot of people:  I think a lot of people, while reading, were basically thinking "I'm SO anxious for the story to get back to the characters I know and love so well that I really can't drum up any interest in these people, in fact I can barely even pay attention...WHO is this person again???  Can we PLEASE just get back to the characters I already know and love so well??"  (I have read all the books twice, and my personal experience was that I felt this somewhat on the first reading of the Dorne stuff, but then I found that on my second reading I liked the Dorne stuff a lot more, cuz the anxiousness to get back to the main characters wasn't as strong, cuz I already KNEW what happened to them for the rest of the book.   Thus, I just relaxed and enjoyed what I was reading, taking more time to digest it, cuz it IS all part of ASOIAF)

(2)  The Dorne characters are not NEARLY as well fleshed out as the rest of the main characters, in terms of background, history, personality and motivations.  Is it surprising that the Dorne character who is by far the most popular (Oberyn) is also BY FAR the most well fleshed out?  I don't think so, and this, too, I think, is related to the fact that GRRM introduced them so late that they just have not had nearly as much "stage time" (or "screen time") as quite a few other characters, so we just do NOT know them as well as quite a few of the other characters, who seem like old friends.

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3 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I think people give her too much credit to be honest. I don't think she planned on having jon die but for some reason didn't trust him. I don't know the whole thing made no sense to me.

Well, I hear you.  LIke I said, I think it's a coin flip (meaning, 50/50 odds) that in the end I'm going to have the opinion that she is just not very smart (to put it kindly).

And I strongly agree with your final point there.  Yeah, NO other theory about why Sansa did what she did makes any sense to me, other than the two possibilities I've named (either (a) she's not very smart, or (b) she's actually going bad)

Last year, when it all happened, I was on the internet, reading theories about why she did what she did, the vast majority of it made me scratch my head and go "Whaat???"  The main theory seems to have been that she didn't trust Jon, but...uhhhhhh, that makes NO sense.  We have been given no reason to believe there has been any animosity between Jon and Sansa while they were growing up, and she and Brienne went to Castle Black precisely BECAUSE Sansa trusts Jon (in fact, if I recall correctly, there's a conversation between Sansa and Brienne where Sansa expressly tells Brienne she trusts Jon.  What's next, a theory that Sansa lied to Brienne about this??? WHY would Sansa do that??).

I could go on and on.  Bottom line, in my opinion, is that I cannot think of any reason Sansa would not trust Jon, and PLENTY of reasons to believe she would, should, and DOES.

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15 minutes ago, Cron said:

I think there are two major reasons people in general don't like the Dorne stuff as much as most of the rest of the story:

(1)  By introducing those characters so late in the series

 

 This is something that bugs me: it's not late in the series. It's the beginning of the second act. It's the Empire Strikes Back, or Two Towers. It's a perfectly good place for new characters. And Arriane's pretty well fleshed out.

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4 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

 

 This is something that bugs me: it's not late in the series. It's the beginning of the second act. It's the Empire Strikes Back, or Two Towers. It's a perfectly good place for new characters. And Arriane's pretty well fleshed out.

Really??

Let's see.  We are talking about a total of 7 books, and characters being introduced in Book 5.

And even then, they have very little "stage time" (books) or "screen time" (shows), compared to numerous other characters.

How many total chapters are there through 5 books for Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion, Cersei, and even Jaime??  A LOT.

FAR more than for Arianne, or Areo Hotah, or Doran Martell.

Sorry, but to use your Star Wars or LOTR analogies, these would be minor characters (in terms of "stage time") being introduced for the first time at the start of Return of the Jedi, or the start of Return of the King, then maybe being "on screen" in those movies for maybe a total of 10 or 15 minutes, tops (probably not even that)

Look, I LIKE the Dorne stuff (books and show).  I really do.  All I'm trying to do here is understand why SO many other people seem to dislike them, in books and show, and this is my theory, that they were introduced very late, and even then were given so little time that they were not fully fleshed out.

You mention Arianne.  Well, I liked her in the book (quite a bit; I was VERY disappointed that she was left out of the show),but I think she is only well developed compared to other Dorne characters.   Compared to numerous OTHER characters, though, I d say we know next to nothing about her.  How many total chapters is Arianne in? Maybe 4 or 5, I'd guess?  She is in ONE out of FIVE books, and even in that book she has less time than several other major characters.

One final time, though: Don't get me wrong, I liked the Dorne stuff a lot, and wish the show had followed it faithfully, DEFINITELY including the Arianne stuff, but alas, it was not to be.

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5 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

 

 This is something that bugs me: it's not late in the series. It's the beginning of the second act. It's the Empire Strikes Back, or Two Towers. It's a perfectly good place for new characters. And Arriane's pretty well fleshed out.

It's very late in the series to introduce several new 'main' characters in Dance, if the series is going to finish in 7 books.

ETA:  Why I dislike Dorne in the show and the books:

1. Doran's plots, in the books, are non existent, he was built up to be on par with Tywin Lannister, but his best ideas are that he sat on his ass for 15 years waiting for Vicerys to grow up, then he sends his son to marry Dany, meanwhile his only brother gets himself killed.  His daughter and his nieces all hate him.  He's totally lame.

2. Sand Snakes are awful.  They are silly.  They are cartoonish.  Every gal with her own weapon.  So silly.  Worse in the show than the books, but still awful.

3. I know a lot of people like Arianne, she doesn't do much for me, I didn't need another spoiled, 'doesn't get it' bad at plotting princess in the series.  We have enough of that already.  

4. The only Dorne element that worked well, both in books and show was the Red Viper.  

5. Darkstar.  Another cartoonish, poorly filled out character introduced late in the game.

Edited by Cas Stark

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Oh, dear.

I confess. I was entranced by the Dorne scenes.

Why?

Because I know the settings where they were filmed very well.

It was a pleasure to see the Alcazar used in this series!

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12 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, I hear you.  LIke I said, I think it's a coin flip (meaning, 50/50 odds) that in the end I'm going to have the opinion that she is just not very smart (to put it kindly).

And I strongly agree with your final point there.  Yeah, NO other theory about why Sansa did what she did makes any sense to me, other than the two possibilities I've named (either (a) she's not very smart, or (b) she's actually going bad)

Last year, when it all happened, I was on the internet, reading theories about why she did what she did, the vast majority of it made me scratch my head and go "Whaat???"  The main theory seems to have been that she didn't trust Jon, but...uhhhhhh, that makes NO sense.  We have been given no reason to believe there has been any animosity between Jon and Sansa while they were growing up, and she and Brienne went to Castle Black precisely BECAUSE Sansa trusts Jon (in fact, if I recall correctly, there's a conversation between Sansa and Brienne where Sansa expressly tells Brienne she trusts Jon.  What's next, a theory that Sansa lied to Brienne about this??? WHY would Sansa do that??).

I could go on and on.  Bottom line, in my opinion, is that I cannot think of any reason Sansa would not trust Jon, and PLENTY of reasons to believe she would, should, and DOES.

Well there weren't close as kids because she was still that stuck up girl. The line she got with joffrey and arya fighting still makes me cringe

Sansa-Stop it your ruining everything.

 

That one line to arya as joffrey hurt that butchers boy and then went after arya with a sword spoke volumes as to who she was. Jon was a bastard and if I remember correctly she treated him like he wasn't one of her siblings or at least a bit more distant. That said It seemed to me like she realized it and even apoligized to jon early on. I agree though that some of the theories on the internet made me shake my want to bang my head against the wall. While screaming IT MAKE'S NO SENSE!  I don't see how she could trust littlefinger in any way so she needs jon

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