Cron

Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

1,206 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Did he say that? He said that about Beric. Did he say that specifically about Jon? I suppose its possible he comes back in a different way

And Jon Snow, too, is drained by the experience of coming back from the dead on the show.

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

Looks like he's foreshadowing of JOn. He also says Catelyn is a wight. Depending on the circumstances he could be an ice wight I guess? In the showverse he'd be a fire wight because they used the fire magic (although the show has avoided saying that Beric and Jon don0t have a beating heart)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

do you realise that if they KNEW that the seoncd part was hopeless anyway, then it means that they are even more dumb?

THEY didn't knew. But Tyrion had to know.

Jon and Dany never even met Cersei. They didn't knew her personality, or her motivation, they did knew ABOUT HER, in general terms. So they trusted to the person who really knew her, who was her brother, and who claimed that he will be able to convince her to join them, if they will show her prove of NK's threat.

Jon did his part. The rest was Tyrion's job. And he's the one who failed it.

And here's how: supposedly he knows Cersei and her personality, then how come he hasn't foreseen possibility that in exchange of her help, Cersei will make her own demands, and that she could ask of them exactly what she did - for King in The North not to fight against her afterwards? If Tyrion planned to have negotiations with Cersei, he should have discussed all possibilities with other participants of future negotiations. He should have warned Jon and Dany what Cersei could demand. And in this case, they could have discussed beforehand, what should they do and say, if she indeed will ask something like that. Then Jon would have said to everyone, that he already has bend the knee to Dany, and chose her as his Queen. They should have talked about this, before going to Cersei.

But Tyrion didn't thought that it is necessary to prepare others for negotiations with Cersei. He thought that he alone will manage to convince her. It was his shortsightness that led to failure. You may argue that later he was the one who convince Cersei to change her mind. But we, viewers, do know that Tyrion failed, and Cersei tricked even him.

Jon's mission was to bring wight to KL, and convince Cersei and Jaime that NK is real. And in this he succeeded. The rest wasn't his job.

16 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

we see the reactions of Tyrion and Dany, they are furious.

So they should have done their own job better.

At least Tyrion didn't knew about Jon's pledge to Dany, but what is her excuse? Or did she really expected that Jon will lie?

I like this part of his personality. If a person is honest, decent and trustworthy, then that person should stick with his convictions, even under unfavorable circumstances. He's not opportunist like Robb, so he's a more likable and respectful person.

16 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

He is a fire wight, according to theauthor.

It's obvious that in GOT whatever Benjen became, Jon (and Beric) is not the same. Jon was really resurected. He was dead, and then became alive again. Like Jesus Christ or Lazarus. While Benjen was a reanimated corpse, with the only difference between him and wights, is that he retained his consciousness and mind.

What GRRM said about fire wights contradicts Jon's physical state in GOT. So show version of Jon is alive. While uncle Benjen is more like Martin's version of resurection from the books. Like Cat. Maybe in books, Jon will be a fire wight - not exactly alive, but GOT's version is different.

Read what GRRM wrote about fire wights, that's really disgusting, and that's not Jon's state after resurrection in show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/8/2017 at 6:37 PM, Megorova said:

THEY didn't knew. But Tyrion had to know.

Jon and Dany never even met Cersei. They didn't knew her personality, or her motivation, they did knew ABOUT HER, in general terms. So they trusted to the person who really knew her, who was her brother, and who claimed that he will be able to convince her to join them, if they will show her prove of NK's threat.

Jon did his part. The rest was Tyrion's job. And he's the one who failed it.

And here's how: supposedly he knows Cersei and her personality, then how come he hasn't foreseen possibility that in exchange of her help, Cersei will make her own demands, and that she could ask of them exactly what she did - for King in The North not to fight against her afterwards? If Tyrion planned to have negotiations with Cersei, he should have discussed all possibilities with other participants of future negotiations. He should have warned Jon and Dany what Cersei could demand. And in this case, they could have discussed beforehand, what should they do and say, if she indeed will ask something like that. Then Jon would have said to everyone, that he already has bend the knee to Dany, and chose her as his Queen. They should have talked about this, before going to Cersei.

But Tyrion didn't thought that it is necessary to prepare others for negotiations with Cersei. He thought that he alone will manage to convince her. It was his shortsightness that led to failure. You may argue that later he was the one who convince Cersei to change her mind. But we, viewers, do know that Tyrion failed, and Cersei tricked even him.

Jon's mission was to bring wight to KL, and convince Cersei and Jaime that NK is real. And in this he succeeded. The rest wasn't his job.

So they should have done their own job better.

At least Tyrion didn't knew about Jon's pledge to Dany, but what is her excuse? Or did she really expected that Jon will lie?

I like this part of his personality. If a person is honest, decent and trustworthy, then that person should stick with his convictions, even under unfavorable circumstances. He's not opportunist like Robb, so he's a more likable and respectful person.

It's obvious that in GOT whatever Benjen became, Jon (and Beric) is not the same. Jon was really resurected. He was dead, and then became alive again. Like Jesus Christ or Lazarus. While Benjen was a reanimated corpse, with the only difference between him and wights, is that he retained his consciousness and mind.

What GRRM said about fire wights contradicts Jon's physical state in GOT. So show version of Jon is alive. While uncle Benjen is more like Martin's version of resurection from the books. Like Cat. Maybe in books, Jon will be a fire wight - not exactly alive, but GOT's version is different.

Read what GRRM wrote about fire wights, that's really disgusting, and that's not Jon's state after resurrection in show.

I can't find the clip in order to corroborate if Tyrion indeed says -explicitly-that he wil convince the Queen, but what you say about differnt jobs, doesn0t make sense at all.

They all have something to do, but the plan is to convince her. You can't say that JOn can boycott the plan ........because he is interested in convincing her. In fact, the obsession of convincing people about the threat of the wws was his idea since the strat.,

So saying no to Cersei when she only puts this condition and destroying the plan makes him a horrible leader, not even being able to stuck to his own plans. A plan that was for a team, not only "hunting a wight" being his job, as he was the servant of someone and not who he is.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion simply stated that they needed to "bring one example" of the dead to try and convince Cersei not to simply take back Daenerys's gained lands if Dany moves her forces up North to help Jon. He never really said that he would convince Cersei. If anything, he said the best he could do was convince Jaime to convince Cersei to meet with them in the first place.

Tyrion said, "Catch a wight and take it to Cersei." How is he supposed to know how difficult that would be? Jon hasn't even properly explained the way the Army of the Dead works. Literally, the most he has really said about the White Walkers was showing Dany that childish scrawl in the caves below Dragonstone.

Upon hearing Tyrion's suggestion, Jon should have said, "It's not that easy because they move in large groups and are commanded by incredibly powerful White Walkers that are very, very capable fighters and they are commanded by an even more powerful being called the Night King who can make more White Walkers and raise hundreds of dead humans in one go."

Instead, he just nodded like a bobble-head and did not pass on his superior knowledge nor did he think to properly follow up with Bran on what is going on with the WW. He doesn't even properly explain the White Walkers or the Night King to Cersei when he's caught this single wight and tells his doom and gloom. Of course, Cersei doesn't take the threat as seriously as she should -- she has no idea of the immense power that lies behind the Army of the Dead.

Everyone is culpable in that stupid wight-hunt plan but Jon (and Daenerys, after she actually saw the White Walkers and the Night King) most of all. Bottom line: he should have known better. Going to all that trouble to try and convince Cersei Lannister of all people was doomed from the beginning because they never take the time to properly explain that there is more to it than dead people coming back to life and being difficult to kill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/14/2016 at 10:14 AM, Cron said:

 the scene where Brienne and Pod met Arya and Sandor, and Brienne and Sandor fought

Which set up the wonderful repartee between Tormund and Sandor so much later: "You do know her!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/15/2016 at 10:26 PM, Darkstream said:

The Moon Door being in the floor instead of the wall.

Now that you mention it, that is a pretty fancy piece of pre-industrial structural engineering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/23/2016 at 8:51 AM, EwanStark said:

Stannis leading his troops in the Battle of the Blackwater.

That was a great scene, but the way they have to drag him away reminded me of Lancelot at the wedding in MP & the Holy Grail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/18/2017 at 10:09 PM, Old Rusty Coin said:

Which set up the wonderful repartee between Tormund and Sandor so much later: "You do know her!"

Yeah, that was good stuff, too.

Personally, I think Brienne and Tormund are going to end up together, after Jaime dies.  He's going to catch her on the rebound.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/12/2017 at 3:59 PM, Faera said:

Tyrion simply stated that they needed to "bring one example" of the dead to try and convince Cersei not to simply take back Daenerys's gained lands if Dany moves her forces up North to help Jon. He never really said that he would convince Cersei. If anything, he said the best he could do was convince Jaime to convince Cersei to meet with them in the first place.

Tyrion said, "Catch a wight and take it to Cersei." How is he supposed to know how difficult that would be? Jon hasn't even properly explained the way the Army of the Dead works. Literally, the most he has really said about the White Walkers was showing Dany that childish scrawl in the caves below Dragonstone.

Upon hearing Tyrion's suggestion, Jon should have said, "It's not that easy because they move in large groups and are commanded by incredibly powerful White Walkers that are very, very capable fighters and they are commanded by an even more powerful being called the Night King who can make more White Walkers and raise hundreds of dead humans in one go."

Instead, he just nodded like a bobble-head and did not pass on his superior knowledge nor did he think to properly follow up with Bran on what is going on with the WW. He doesn't even properly explain the White Walkers or the Night King to Cersei when he's caught this single wight and tells his doom and gloom. Of course, Cersei doesn't take the threat as seriously as she should -- she has no idea of the immense power that lies behind the Army of the Dead.

Everyone is culpable in that stupid wight-hunt plan but Jon (and Daenerys, after she actually saw the White Walkers and the Night King) most of all. Bottom line: he should have known better. Going to all that trouble to try and convince Cersei Lannister of all people was doomed from the beginning because they never take the time to properly explain that there is more to it than dead people coming back to life and being difficult to kill.

I think you have made many excellent points.

I like the character of Jon Snow a lot, and he is a hero, BUT...he's really not very bright.  I could give many examples of this.  His full frontal assault on Winterfell was a train wreck until he was miraculously saved by forces he didn't even know were on their way. Pure luck, and, of course, it was miraculous luck that he was not killed in the battle (before the Knights of the Vale arrived) himself even as it was.

And yeah, I think the Wight hunt has been widely reviled by fans, as were related scenes where Gendry runs for help and Dany makes an off-the-charts-unlikely (impossible?) rescue of the Wight hunters.  Ouch.

Still, I'd say this season offered a lot of great stuff, though, with the good outweighing the bad overall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2.12.2017 at 7:29 PM, Cron said:

And yeah, I think the Wight hunt has been widely reviled by fans, as were related scenes where Gendry runs for help and Dany makes an off-the-charts-unlikely (impossible?) rescue of the Wight hunters.  Ouch.

Still, I'd say this season offered a lot of great stuff, though, with the good outweighing the bad overall.

Seems like that last sentence is actually being applied to S7E6 by the majority of viewers and fans, judging by the ratings.


 

Also, good post @Faera - lots of bases that weren't covered, as usual in this show (esp. in the later seasons of course).

However the way I look at it is, GoT is like a strongly decomposed wight - half the meat's fallen off and you can see the bones in many places, but it's still moving and is effective. All those questions could've been covered in added dialogue and the plotline / major scenes could've been done pretty much identically - 2 major examples of that would be Sandor's vision (making the mission more plausible from the get go) and Cersei mentioning the WWs in her last scene with Jaime (so apparently it was supposed to be "obvious" that they were part of the package deal).

All the necessary elements were present, just not always and not always where they should've been.


 

PS: This plotline wasn't yet in the books and probably won't be, so technically technically this was off-topic I guess.

Edited by Pink Fat Rast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think one of the best decisions the show runners made that different from the books was an overall one to not get mired down in new book subplots after the Red Wedding. The show obviously screwed the pooch on things like the Dornish plot, but overall, they chose wisely discarding things that they knew weren't going to matter when it came to the end game itself. Will UnCat matter in the end? No? Gone. Will FAegon or Jon Connnington matter in the end? No? Gone. The Sand Snakes infiltrating the Maester's Citadel and King's Landing going to matter in the end? No? Gone.

Martin is still mired down in new narrative debts that need to be paid with no end in sight, while the show is going to finish on schedule. I'll take the books over the show any day, but you can't deny the showrunners are far better prepared than Martin.

Edited by Big Daddy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Big Daddy said:

Will UnCat matter in the end? No? Gone.

UnCat replaced Beric who's still around - so it doesn't seem like you're suggesting-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 29.10.2017 at 7:58 PM, MinscS2 said:

Or the wrong kind of music.
Nothing makes a horror/intense scene scarier/more intense than some happy music.

Hey anyone else had the impression that around the middle of the Tree Invasion sequence, the music gets kinda weirdly lighthearted and takes away from the intensity?

Anyway:



 

On 29.10.2017 at 9:20 PM, StepStark said:

Sorry but what is your point exactly? If I got it right, then you chose a very strange way of putting it.

As I interpreted your post, you're saying that music is a legitimate subject in this thread because it's a significant part of motion pictures. But then you should've gone deeper, and say why is the music so important in motion pictures: because it helps to create the atmosphere. Now, that is something that can be compared to the books, because literature has its own ways of creating atmosphere.

So the question would then be: which is more successful in creating atmosphere, the books or the show. Is that what you actually had in mind?

If yes, then the answer is the books are so much better, it's not even close. Every chapter has a very distinct atmosphere, starting from the most obvious manifestations like climate, to the finer ones like the mindset and the mood of the POV character or other significant characters.

I consider "atmosphere" to be a more narrow concept than it apparently means under your definition - probably just semantics, but it still might lead to misconceptions even if kept in mind.

For instance, "mindset" or even "mood" don't necessarily count as atmosphere - unless there is the audio/visual sense that the character's physical environment is saturated with this mood - or social environment, in which case that group of humans creates the sense that whatever "mindset" they supposedly have "fills the room" in some way.

Quote

Unless he has some serious comprehension skills, a reader is always aware of the characters' surroundings and all the ways they affect each other (characters and surroundings). It's so good, it usually feel effortless, but in certain chapters atmosphere is so palpable as if the readers are physically there: one example that comes to mind right away is Jon's chapter in ACOK when he finds the old NW cloak. Also, Davos' chapters in ADWD are extremely atmospheric, and Arya's Harrenhall chapters too.

I'd go as far as say that ASOIAF is possibly the most atmospheric book(s) I ever read.

But about the show, the atmosphere is one of their weakest sides. They rely almost exclusively on music, and while the music is not bad, it grows tiring very fast precisely because of overuse. Everything else is even worse. The sets are totally underused, and prime example is the Spanish location that served as Dorne.

Really, are you saying the least popular, most rushed storyline of the entire show, is a "prime example"of something being done poorly??

Case in point - fancy location in a normal color scheme and with clear skies, isn't "atmosphere" to me. Aesthetics and beauty definitely - combined with the tone conveyed by characters such as Myrcella/Trystane, creates an opulent, life-affirming mood and look - but the "atmosphere" as such is at 0.

The space between the observer and the palace (or other objects) needs to feel like it's saturated with something transcendent, or emotions corresponding to the characters'.
However, in your broader definition all those factors are obviously included in the term.

As "atmospheric" counterpart locations I'd cite Qarth (most of it at least), the Pyramids in the slaver cities etc. 

Quote

That's one of the most beautiful sites in the entire world, but in the show you practically never see any of it's beauty.

It looks pretty enough on the screen - seeing "more of it" wouldn't have changed the tone I don't think, but then I wasn't there.


 

Quote

And it's not surprising really, because D&D decided at the very beginning that shock value is their prime concern. And when shocking the audience is your main goal, then the "atmosphere" in important scenes actually has to be misleading, so that the audience is more surprised when the unexpected twist comes. That's why the Red Wedding in the show had nothing of the discomfort Cat was feeling in the books throughout the entire chapter. They wanted the Red Wedding to be as big a surprise as possible, so they deliberately sacrificed the distinct atmosphere from the source material.

The "atmosphere", created mosly by the cozy looking room and the medieval music playing, is of a positive nature - and you're wrong in saying "nothing", as Cat *does* end up feeling foreboding discomfort, juist much later, when the Lannister song starts playing and then the exit is being closed.

Then the atosphere thickens and assumes the precise mood that you're saying is missing.


Then there are other scenes in the show you know? For instance the attack on the Fist is preceded by several episodes of very thick and obvious, uneasy/foreboding atmosphere - created by the landscape and the electronic score, along with some of the dialogue.

Same with the Hardhome attack, albeit in a more subtle way.

Oh and everyone's favorite SHAWK FACTOR that everyone likes to complain about, the Sansa rape? Guess what, it wasn't quite as surprising as it could've been, given Ramsay's gradually worsening behavior over the time, and the almost funeral-like mood of the wedding ceremony.
 

Quote

Or just compare the two versions of Jon's murder. In the books, the atmosphere is so rich in every single segment of the chapter, and changes gradually with Jon's inner feelings. From starting determination to do the right thing, it changes to a subtle despair when Ramsay's letter arrives, and then explodes into pure anger and rage when Jon gets his swords, but then the brief confusion in the courtyard leads the way for the final horror. While in the show, once again, all of that is sacrificed for the pure shock value.

Again, wouldn't describe those "emotional states" you're describing from the book as atmosphere, but that's different semantics etc.

Your description of the show counterpart is mostly accurate, although it's moreso the case that there was a sense of foreboding earlier on when they returned from HH, and then it kind of dissipated until the sudden final scene.

Wouldn't say that whole arc was structured brilliantly in the first place, although it could've been structured with the murder still coming as a surprise shock like in the aired version.

However, a page later you then went on to say:
 

Quote

LOL!!! Out of nowhere? Are you saying that Brienne's face getting bitten off was supposed to be hinted at previously? That that moment was supposed to be built-up? And same for Ramsay's bestiality? Seriously?

I see that you're obviously confused so let me try to clear some things for you. Brienne getting bitten has to be "out of nowhere" because in good storytelling and real life things like that happen really happen "out of nowhere". It comes "out of nowhere" in the same way Jorry's death comes "out of nowhere" in the first novel, or like Tyrion losing his nose comes "out of nowhere" in the second novel, or like The Hound getting "fatally" wounded at the inn in the third novel. It is the nature of physical confrontations: they are nasty and sometimes people are really hurt beyond repair.

What matters is that the confrontation itself doesn't come "out of nowhere" and that it isn't resolved by some "out of nowhere" moment. Seeing that Brienne is going through confrontations pretty much in her entire storyline it's hardly "out of nowhere" that she's hurt beyond repair in one of those. And for what it's worth, at least she's bitten by Biter, who doesn't carry that name for nothing.:

So... I guess both sudden calamities and those preceded by prolonged (or short, depending) foreboding are acceptable, each for their own reasons, eh?

Both can happen IRL, and both are effective in fiction in their own respective ways.


And case in point, talking about related inn scenes - the one with Sandor and Polliver went rather suddenly from casual conversation to threats and violence, in the book version; the show replaced that with a 5 minute long, carefully structured build-up.

Accordingly to your earlier statement, that would make the show version better eh? But now that's been cleared up a bit. (And for the record, I do find the book counterpart poorer than the show's, in this instance - but that's exclusively due to what I perceived as uneven, flat and sometimes clunky Arya-POV narration in that chapter. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows).

 

 

Quote

Also for me Cressen's chapter did an amazing job on depicting how empty and almost sad is the atmosphere surrounding Stannis, and Dragonstone as a place. Later on Davos' POVs continue this work.

Looks like the show replaced the atmosphere of "empty sadness" with that of exotic mysticism connected to Melisandre's influence - that's not an argument for why it's absent or worse/poorer, so far it merely seems different. At least until you add something to the contrary.
 

 

 

Quote

n fact, it looks like you had a nervous reaction to my post without even thinking about it, or maybe even reading it through. You assumed that I have something against shocking moments. Guess what, I don't. In fact, that's one of the reasons I like ASOIAF. Nothing in my post suggests that I have problem with shocking moments in principal. I have a problem with the way shock is achieved in GOT and I elaborated on it enough so that nobody thinks that I have problem with shock in principal. And yet you managed to misunderstand everything. Congratulations.

I don't think you've elaborated that here - all you said was that it was "built up in the book" and then "came as surprise" in the show; and let's not forget that both the mutiny and RW had definitely set up, the viewer and the doomed characters were just supposed to be emotionally oblivious to it and underestimating the danger until (almost) the very end.
 

 

 

Quote

or more precisely to create something D&D think is atmosphere (preparing viewers to be in the right emotional state).

Is there any other way the music is important for GOT?

 


Huh? Atmosphere isn't "preparation for emotional state", that's called build-up. Atmosphere is in the present - it can be applied both to whatever's defined as build-up and then the pay-off sequence.

And, is there any other way the music is important in GoT other than... preparing for an emtional state? Whaaaaat, that question doesn't even make sense lmao





EDIT:

But about the show, the atmosphere is one of their weakest sides. They rely almost exclusively on music, and while the music is not bad, it grows tiring very fast precisely because of overuse. Everything else is even worse. The sets are totally underused, and prime example is the Spanish location that served as Dorne.



Do the North scenes rely almost exclusively on music and underuse the landscape, color scheme and mist/storm effects?

Does the WW duel from HH rely almost exclusively on music and underuses time manipulation and weird camera angles?

Does the House of the Undying sequence rely almost exclusively on score and underuses camera direction and the creepy doorless tower in the middle?

I don't even see how your description applies to the show in any way, particularly in those parts where actual "atmosphere" (as agreed by everybody) becomes undeniable.

I mean are there some examples where the show relies on music, or maybe some other singular element, to create mood while neglecting other elements? Suuuure... I guess that happens somewhere at some point. But you didn't provide any examples, and no Dorne doesn't count :D

Edited by Pink Fat Rast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5.11.2017 at 2:43 AM, StepStark said:

Many fanboys are actually more talented than D&D and when they try to "explain" plot holes from the show they usually come up with better stories than what was actually shown on screen. Sorry to say but you're definitely not one of them.

Unless you think every single plotline / event in the show has been "as retarded" as this one, you yourself agree that D&D are merely selectively neglectful and were otherwise entirely capable of making this bit (and many others) much more solid than they ended up being - so maybe quit saying "more talented", since more disciplined, time-managey and self-critical would be more accurate.


In this case, that other user's "fanwank explanation" was obviously a bit too detailed and specific to then credit the show with - however, it's been established that Benjenhands is a greenseeing sentinel who rescues main characters from monsters just in the nick of time.

Why complain about it here, when it's already happened in S6? And, in case this point needs further reinforcement, psychic/magic characters providing this kind of "eucatastrophy" resolutions is inherently more justified than under ordinary circumstances.


The only real problem here is that he also could've gotten on the god damned horse, and this was a very poor, disappointing non-payoff to "I'll be fighting this war, as long as I can" - the emotional, ATMOSPHERIC execution does its best to distract from that, but I'd say a better/longer line than "Uncle Benjen!" would've been in order.

 

On 7.11.2017 at 1:05 AM, Meera of Tarth said:

What he did after saving JOn was even worse than his appearance.

No it was the only bad thing :)

On 7.11.2017 at 1:05 AM, Meera of Tarth said:

In season 6 hesaid he'd fight for the living, but it's so sad he has to sacrifice himself

No he doesn't have to, that's completely artificial and unjustified :D

On 7.11.2017 at 1:05 AM, Meera of Tarth said:

for a wight mission that his nephew invented, (and that he only did for his lust for Dany, since he destroyed the mission when he didn't want to tell a lie to Cersei). Everything was so pathetic and badly written.

As it's been pointed out already, it was principled honor and not "lust", and a critic such as yourself shouldn't credit oneself with determining a stupidity in a character's behavior that's already been not merely lampshaded but rebuked at length by the other characters in the show.

The scriptwriters knew that that was stupid of him - you can't call them morons for not realizing it was stupid, the same way you can the character.

 

On 7.11.2017 at 1:05 AM, Meera of Tarth said:

that his nephew invented,

He didn't invent it all by himself - it was also commanded by fate, to some extent. That was a major plot point.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

 

No it was the only bad thing :)

No he doesn't have to, that's completely artificial and unjustified :D

tell that to Thoros and oops...everyone else if Dany had not arrived in time

thanks God that Gendry is a good runner and ravens eat lots of energetic corn

Quote

As it's been pointed out already, it was principled honor and not "lust", and a critic such as yourself shouldn't credit oneself with determining a stupidity in a character's behavior that's already been not merely lampshaded but rebuked at length by the other characters in the show.

The scriptwriters knew that that was stupid of him - you can't call them morons for not realizing it was stupid, the same way you can the character
.

 

He didn't invent it all by himself - it was also commanded by fate, to some extent. That was a major plot point.

 

So if the writers make Jon stupid for love for his new queen he barely knows ut finds sexy and later make the other characters tell him he is that makes the story of Jon only about "honour" and stupidity is justified....good try, but that doesn't convince me, LOL

and for the record...I have not said the word "moron" to anyone, don't twist my words

Edited by Meera of Tarth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

 

He didn't invent it all by himself - it was also commanded by fate, to some extent. That was a major plot point.

oh, yes, iirc it was Tyrion's idea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Things the show did better than the books:

1) In season 2, Tyrion's line to Janos Slynt - "I'm not questioning your honour. I'm denying its existence." How did D&D manage to write such a good line and then go on to write so much awful dialogue?

2) In season 4, the scene when Oberyn visits Tyrion in his cell was faithful to the books, but improved: Oberyn telling Tyrion the story about his and Elia's visit to Casterly Rock worked much better in this context, than in the context he told it in the books (during their first meeting).

3) In season 1, it was good that they had Ned explain to Arya that Sansa couldn't openly call Joffrey a liar, because she was going to be married to him and he'll be her lord. It's something that should be obvious, really, but a large part of the fandom is really stupid about it, so making it explicit was a good call. (I don't know if even that helped with the fandom, though.)

4) Jon's made-up explanation to Mance about why he deserted the Night's Watch (because the NW was not focusing on the real enemy, the White Walkers, and was letting Craster give his sons to them) was way more convincing than the explanation he gave in the books (because he was unhappy with his social status as a bastard - how does that matter to his life in the NW, where he could rise in the ranks and become Lord Commander anyway? Mance would know that, as he was in the NW).

5) I love the scene where Sandor deserts in 'Blackwater' - it was more memorable and better than the one in the books. (Of course, GRRM wrote it...)

6) Ned's death in 'Baelor' was really well done and stronger than in the books, because we got to see his POV as well, not just Arya's, and the addition of him noticing Arya and sending Yoren to shield her from seeing him die was also really good.

 

And... that's it. I'm drawing a blank. I don't think there's anything else I can come up with.
I would say Jaqen felt more charismatic in season 2 than in ACOK, but that's simply because of the actor making the character alive, and had nothing to do with writing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

So if the writers make Jon stupid for love for his new queen he barely knows ut finds sexy and later make the other characters tell him he is that makes the story of Jon only about "honour" and stupidity is justified....good try, but that doesn't convince me, LOL

and for the record...I have not said the word "moron" to anyone, don't twist my words

Not necessarily, but the criticism needs to be modified.

 

9 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

oh, yes, iirc it was Tyrion's idea

I said fate, not Tyrion - the Brotherhood were heading there and Sandor saw the destination in the fire.

So while at first they did "invent" the mission, by the time they actually headed out North they'd already gotten an ok from God - sort of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally blackwater was just much better to see than just to read. I LOVE that whole sequences of events and I think that episode has some great lines. 

I read the books before watching the show and the show's portrayal of Tyrion is interesting. I hated Tyrion in the books (no idea why, just did) in the show they made him much more likable, for me at least. So I liked that. I thought Ned's death and the Red Wedding were done well on the show. The books was a bigger wow factor for me since I didn't know what was going on, but I liked Ned's point of view in his death and I liked Rob's point of view (or at least kinda point of view) at the Red Wedding.

And the music in the show was obviously really well done, not that the books could totally complete with that. But the music has been so good with that show, except for Season 3 episode 3 after Jamie loses his hand. What a freaking misstep that was with the music...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 17/01/2018 at 1:00 PM, Annara Snow said:

1) In season 2, Tyrion's line to Janos Slynt - "I'm not questioning your honour. I'm denying its existence." How did D&D manage to write such a good line and then go on to write so much awful dialogue?

I sometimes wonder this myself. Why did it have to be this way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now