Lady Stoneheart - Unlife, Myth and Purpose?

[Net-Viper X]

I think there is more compassion in LS than most people think and its unfair to say she no longer cares about her children, in fact I think children are the only people she has compassion for now. She set up that cottage in the Riverlands to take care of lost and orphaned children and keep them safe for the roaming bands of soldiers. I believe this act is driven by her love for her own children. They are gone far away and beyond her reach to help them, so instead she helps what children she can wherever she finds them. If she ever gets a chance to meet her kids again I believe it will be a jarring event for both Cat and her children, and may be the thing that breaks through the fog of hate and banishes the monster Cat has become. That may be the point when Cat either ends her unlife herself, or passes the kiss of fire onto another.

[Morgana Lannister]

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

While there are The Morrigan references regarding the Ruby's Ford, especially with the fall of Rhaegar (similar to Cu Chulainn in the Ulster cycle). Cu Chulainn sees The Morrigan wash his bloody armor in a ford, and it is an ill omen foretelling his death. Her association with heifers and cattle in general link her origin to being of the "earth, fertility". She's also linked to the giving of souvereignty, and seems more a goddess of souvereignty than of a goddess of war (though she can take away souvereignty or deny it through war). Current ethimological experts explain her name to mean "Phantom Queen". Certainly with Robb's crown in her hands, LS, and looking like a "horror"/nightmare" there are The Morrigan associations possible, especially as a figure who endeavors to take away Frey rule and shall hand Robb's crown to someone (whether that someone is the person in her son's will is another matter).

Cat is much linked to fertility and underworld consorts or relations from the outset: while Lyanna very much is laden with symbolism of Persephone the maiden kidnapped by Hades and made Queen of the Underworld, Cat has several "flower wraith" and "southern fruit/harvest" references as Persephone as well. Lyanna takes the kidnapping story for herself and is Queen of the Underworld as a statue, but Cat is Persephone the wife of Hades who does her supporting duty, but misses her home and regards the North as strange. In Cat's room however we get a lot of Demeter symbolism (Persephone's mother), and the box chapter is stylistically adapted and written as the Eleusinian mysteries. In connection to Ned's "sword" we have Cat taking up an Isis role (gathering the body pieces of her murdered husband Osiris andattempting to burry him properly, but his phallus is missing, aka sword, which she replaces with a magical "golden" one... hello Oathkeeper. I urge you to read Cat's first chapter and Cat's fascination for Ned's sword, the description of him stroking and polishing it, and how he holds it high and raised from his lap). When it comes to her sons (Robb, Bran and Rickon) we regularly get Isis-Horus references. When it comes to her daughers we get Demeter-missing Persephone references (with Brienne having Hecate references, since Hecate helps Demeter search for her daughters). And finally in relation to Lysa, we have an Ishtar like voyage through gates.

All of these are queen consorts or queen mothers and fertility related, and fertility is also always related to the underworld... life comes from death, since crops grow from soil (except from seaweed and some other water cultured plants... growing food in air though is well impossible), and the soil and earth is always underworld related in mythology => hence why Persephone (symbolizing crop and harvest itself) is wedded to the Lord of the Underworld, and must live there half the time of the year. And even though Demeter is not an actual residental underworld goddess, she has a Fury dimension (Furies are the god-like spirits who avenge crimes against divine rules, such as disrespectful burial, breaking of guest right, kinslaying, etc)

As LS, Cat gets a distinct Fury dimension and becomes a leader herself, especially as the "underworld" is now without a rightful ruler (no Lord/King Stark of WF). And her leading role is mostly alluded to by references to the Norse Hel. Initially George starts out by identifying the North, the Wall and beyond that as "underworldly", with WF as the ruling seat (and not just the crypts). Theon's dream of the dead is Walhalla like. The godswood and its tree with the lake and hot pools have ties to the Norse Urdrbrunnr (well of the 3 main Norse Fates), Lethe, and several other Greek rivers of Hades. But gradually the underworld becomes bigger and adds other territories into it - majorly the Riverlands. Brienne's voyage in aFfC is majorly an adaptation of Dante's journey in the 9 circles of Inferno as well as passages into Purgatory. Wo5K has turned the Riverlands into a "hell on Planetos". And since Ned's heir (with Ned very much portrayed in character, looks, attitude as Hades, ruler of the underworld) Robb annexed the Riverlands to his kingdom, it also fits that the RL become part of this underworldly kingdom.

Back to Norse mythology: the world-tree Yggdrasil has 3 roots in 3 of the 9 Norse realms -(1) Asgard at Walhalla and Urdarbrunnr (Winterfell, but Highgarden has mirror references to it too) (2) Mimir's well where Odin sacrificed his eye for wisdom in the land of the "frost giants and sacrificed himself to a tree (Bloodraven's cave has loads of references to this) and (3) at Hel in the realm called Niflheim, which means "misty lands" and could also be called the Riverlands, because it has 9 rivers.

Hel is the Norse name of both the location and the female ruler of the place where dead souls go to, who haven't died in battle (those go to Walhalla). And Hollow Hill has the weirwood "roots", it's where mostly commoners seek shelter. Hel is the daughter of Loki. She was "thrown into" Niflheim (and thus in the river) by the gods, and thereafter became that realm's ruler. She looks half alive (human pink) and half blue (dead), and very fierce looking. Hel is not really an enemy to the Norse gods, nor extra cruel, but she is firm and severe. She is for example willing to allow dead Baldr to return to Asgard, on the condition that everyone can be made to weep for his death. This nearly succeeds except for one giantess (who's Loki in disguise, who caused him to die in the first place) who refuses to weep. Notice how Cat becomes LS after she's "thrown into" one of the 9 rivers of the Riverlands. Her fiercesome physical description fits the pink-black/blue half/half features of Hel. And she becomes the hidden ruler in the Riverlands with its 9 rivers and often described as being plunged into mist. This makes LS the present ruler of the underworld, who punishes and judges the wicked according to their "divine" crimes against the gods (kinslaying, kingslaying, oathbreaking against a liege, oatbreaking against the gods, breakers of guest rights).

So, LS has the Fury-Demeter allusion in relation to the finding of her daughters (she has not stopped looking for them, evidence by the orphanage). She has the The Morrigan souvereign-giving allusion in relation to Robb's Will and Crown. She has the Isis restoration of fertility and properly burrying with the reforced Ice with a golden pommel in Oathkeeper as the golden phallus, and install a king to avenge her husband's murder. And as Hel she shelters the "poor souls" and has has the power of judgment over the sinners.

Here's an essay on Cat's initial associations (not as LS):

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.wordpress.com/2016/04/10/lady-of-the-golden-sword-of-winterfell/

I'm working on the Isis as mother to Horuses at the moment. I have only some rudimentary written pieces for the Demeter-Hecate looking for the daughters for the moment. I do go into Hel for LS in the "Norse" link in my sig. And the whole Cat-Tyrion stuff related to Ishtar are ideas, but nothing fundamentally written about yet. Cat and LS mythological allusions would require about 4-5 in depth essays in the chtonic cycle to explore in depth.  

OMG, absolutely in awe of your essay!  I was going to reply generally first but wow, just wow!!!  thanks sooo much for your contribution.

[Makk]

I think there is still a lot of intelligence and free will in her. I still think, despite the geographical challenges, that she could be the one to resurrect Jon. In her current form she personifies hate and for her to gain her freedom she needs to let go of what she hated in life - Jon. Robbs last wish and a big disagreement was that Jon be named as his heir, I think she will honor that.

[pigpiginsunspear]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We know she was changed but it is moot to speculate to what degree. But she doesn't seem to suffer from dementia the way Beric did. He was resurrected multiple times but she only once. She seems to have a clear enough memory where Brienne and Jaime are concerned, and also remembers tertiary Freys like Merrett and their roles during the Red Wedding.

Could be that she is completely over the edge where emotions are concerned, though. Or not. It is really difficult to say with any sort of deeper insight into her new personality. Gives revenge her any pleasure or does she just kill people because she thinks they have to die?

We don't know yet. But the whole Brienne episode actually shows she is still capable of small doses of mercy. Else Brienne would have been hanged. Cat has every reason to assume Jaime was involved in the Red Wedding and that Brienne betrayed her. Yet she did allow her to live for now.

Wasn't she also responsible for taking in orphans?  So, again, as you point out, there is some compassion left in here.

[pigpiginsunspear]

In addition to the above points, i think she is included to again test our notions of "hero" and "revenge".  We may end up horrified at her vengeance.

[BricksAndSparrows]

We don't know for certain that Cat is now just some brain dead rage zombie. She's obviously all out of patience and their is probably nothing friendly left, but I think she is still out to find her kids. And there is only a very short literary walk to her knowing their whereabouts. Would anyone here really be blown away if Thoros saw them alive, in his fires? And if there is anything left of Cat, it would most likely be stirred when learning that they aren't dead.

[sweetsunray]

16 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

We don't know for certain that Cat is now just some brain dead rage zombie. She's obviously all out of patience and their is probably nothing friendly left, but I think she is still out to find her kids. And there is only a very short literary walk to her knowing their whereabouts. Would anyone here really be blown away if Thoros saw them alive, in his fires? And if there is anything left of Cat, it would most likely be stirred when learning that they aren't dead.

Thoros doesn't scry in the flames anymore apparently. But I agree that Cat is still looking for her children. The orphanage is evidence of that. It wasn't an orphanage yet until recently. It's the same location as the Crossroads Inn where Cat arrested Tyrion, and where eventually Arya and Sandor kill Polliver & all. The residual blood stains on the plank floor are still visible to Brienne. And that orphanage is watched - primarly by Gendry who keeps the armor in shape there and lights a signal to alert the fighting men of the BwB. Lem was also supposed to be guarding the orphanage, but was lured away when he heard of Bloody Mummers in the neighborhood. The sparrows bring orphans in all the time.

Clearly to me LS knows about Saltpans (and what the Bloody Mummers did there) and that this was the last location where Arya was seen after leaving the Crossroads Inn, and that she was alone by then (the Hound's grave). After that her trail goes cold, but Gendry knows how Arya used disguises to keep herself safe. So, the smartest thing in the hope to retrieve Arya once the trail is cold is set up a guarded orphanage where Sparrows deliver wandering children without an adult companion or parent, and put the one person there who'll recognize her the likeliest, at exactly the same spot where the Hound and she killed Mountain men. It's the smartest thing to do if you hope your child is wandering alone somewhere in the Riverlands. 

[HoodedCrow]

The Catelyn story is tragic, but I don't know how much is left of her. I'm looking forward to the next book to find out, I hope. I would like Jaime to have a quest with Brienne to fulfill their vows and rescue Sansa, but you have to admit that the reunion with her mother would be traumatizing.

Thanks for this essay work on the mythology on this thread. Wow! Riverrun as The underworld with Hel as the ruler seems apt. Doesn't Hel have a brother wolf?

I believe Martin pushes us to think, accept ambiguity, and reconsider. I'm still not sorry for Frey pie, though. Maybe I will be in a few years.

In support of the Morrigan analogy, Catelyn has a son named Bran which means raven. There is no shortage of crows and ravens in this series.

 

 

 

 

 

[chrisdaw]

It's really simple, and really obvious. She is the final destination for Arya Stark should Arya continue to walk her dark path. She is vengeance and death without the capacity for love. She is in need of mercy.

She is a lesson to Jaime, as to where the smallfolk will turn to if the Crown fails in its duty to do justice.

And she is a lesson to Brienne, get off your high horse, sometimes there is no honourable path.

Resolution is that Lady Stoneheart will be destroyed. Arya will play a hand in it, symbolically rejecting the path of vengeance. And the goal here for Jaime is to end the BWB in a manner other than them all being slaughtered, to find a way to earn their surrender. Untie the knot, not hack it with his sword.

[Rob Storm]

I think her purpose is somewhat simple as well.  She is a variation of the Gods wrath on the Rat Cook.  She still maintains portions of her old 'Cat' feelings for sure, to what extent we don't know, but her primary purpose is to eliminate those who broke Guest Right (Freys).  Im not really sure if Lannisters or Boltons technically broke "Guest Right" (Jaime wasn't there, Boltons definitely broke vows of fealty but were not the Host).  Which I think may help Jaime and I agree with a lot of what Lord Varys said regarding her plot path.  

[The Wolves]

10 minutes ago, Rob Storm said:

I think her purpose is somewhat simple as well.  She is a variation of the Gods wrath on the Rat Cook.  She still maintains portions of her old 'Cat' feelings for sure, to what extent we don't know, but her primary purpose is to eliminate those who broke Guest Right (Freys).  Im not really sure if Lannisters or Boltons technically broke "Guest Right" (Jaime wasn't there, Boltons definitely broke vows of fealty but were not the Host).  Which I think may help Jaime and I agree with a lot of what Lord Varys said regarding her plot path.  

Jaime broke it when he pushed her son out of the tower at Winterfell, she should remember that and kill him in TWOW. 

[sweetsunray]

16 minutes ago, Rob Storm said:

I think her purpose is somewhat simple as well.  She is a variation of the Gods wrath on the Rat Cook.  She still maintains portions of her old 'Cat' feelings for sure, to what extent we don't know, but her primary purpose is to eliminate those who broke Guest Right (Freys).  Im not really sure if Lannisters or Boltons technically broke "Guest Right" (Jaime wasn't there, Boltons definitely broke vows of fealty but were not the Host).  Which I think may help Jaime and I agree with a lot of what Lord Varys said regarding her plot path.  

Guest Right also applies from guest to host (see Lords Declarant when Corbray unsheaths his sword against LF, the host) and between guests (see the Dance of Dragons when a green guest wants to kills a black guest under the Baratheon host roof).

[Lost Melnibonean]

50 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Jaime broke it when he pushed her son out of the tower at Winterfell, she should remember that and kill him in TWOW. 

That and, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

[sweetsunray]

45 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That and, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

And breaking his oath to her not to take up arms to Tullys and Starks again, and he just returned from besieging RR against the Blackfish who waved a Stark banner.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And breaking his oath to her not to take up arms to Tullys and Starks again, and he just returned from besieging RR against the Blackfish who waved a Stark banner.

Well, he did end the siege peacefully. 

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Well, he did end the siege peacefully. 

Might be, but it still involved threats and siege weapons. And sent her brother as lifelong hostage to CR, with the order that if anything happened "kill the hostages". I don't think LS is much in a mood to care for the little writing at the back side of a contract.

[Rob Storm]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Guest Right also applies from guest to host (see Lords Declarant when Corbray unsheaths his sword against LF, the host) and between guests (see the Dance of Dragons when a green guest wants to kills a black guest under the Baratheon host roof).

Corbray works for Littlefinger and that was part of the plan,  Lord Baratheon made them leave Storms End prior to conflict much like Manderly's Guest Gifts to the Freys who ended up in Pies.  I guess Manderly got some punishment in the form of a slit throat however so maybe that enforces both of our points.  

[Rob Storm]

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Jaime broke it when he pushed her son out of the tower at Winterfell, she should remember that and kill him in TWOW. 

This is true.  And definitely has a chance for served revenge, but she also knew of this before freeing him while she was Cat and making him say vows to her.  

[sweetsunray]

48 minutes ago, Rob Storm said:

Corbray works for Littlefinger and that was part of the plan,  Lord Baratheon made them leave Storms End prior to conflict much like Manderly's Guest Gifts to the Freys who ended up in Pies.  I guess Manderly got some punishment in the form of a slit throat however so maybe that enforces both of our points.  

And how does Corbray working for LF and it being part of the plan disprove that guest right also work from guest-host? The immediate reaction from the other Lords Declarant AND the fact that it was planned shows that guest right works both ways.

And how does Lord Baratheon making them leave Storm's End prior to conflict disprove that guest right works from guest-guest? It exactly proves that guest right works from one guest to another guest.

You seem to completely misunderstand "guest right". Guest right begins with a symbolic ritual of eating something together provided by the host. Whomever eats from the host's food is considered a guest. From that moment "guest right" starts and the host AND guests are under the protection of "guest right". The host may  not harm his guests. The guests may not harm the host. And the guests may not harm other guests. The "guest right" ends with the giving of the gifts. Now that seems to be silly to you apparantly, but it's less silly thank you think, when you know what it is used for: to ensure that parlays can be hosted without bloodshed. "Guest right" is not about "oh let's be jolly friends for life", it's a custom that particularly came into existence so that enemies and feuds could be settled alternatively. It's like an armistice - the weapons go silent from a certain moment till another moment, and that's when the enemies talk. Otherwise conflicts can only be resolved through complete annihilation. However, when the talk fails and armistice is lifted, everyone starts shooting each other again. Another custom is holding up a white flag or shooting someone with his arms in the air to surrender. Those are customs. It's no less a loss of life if a soldier shoots an unarmed enemy who's not holding a white flag or is not holding his hands up. And yet, we customary find shooting an enemy who does these things as some of the lowest things you can do. 

That is why Manderly may have committed murder and cannibalism, but he did not break guest right. Those Freys were not his guests anymore. And thus he need not be punished for breaking guest right at all. But the Freys certainly committed the same crime again under Roose's roof when they attacked Manderly. Now, why do you think Roose sent both Freys and Manderlys out? Just to defeat Stannis? No he's doing the same thing as Lord Baratheon did with the green and black guest. Send them out, so that they aren't guests anymore and then they can kill each other. The funny thing is that Manderly was always at liberty to kill whomever under Roose's roof, for he never ever ate anyone's food but his own that he brought with him.

[BricksAndSparrows]

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Thoros doesn't scry in the flames anymore apparently. But I agree that Cat is still looking for her children. The orphanage is evidence of that. It wasn't an orphanage yet until recently. It's the same location as the Crossroads Inn where Cat arrested Tyrion, and where eventually Arya and Sandor kill Polliver & all. The residual blood stains on the plank floor are still visible to Brienne. And that orphanage is watched - primarly by Gendry who keeps the armor in shape there and lights a signal to alert the fighting men of the BwB. Lem was also supposed to be guarding the orphanage, but was lured away when he heard of Bloody Mummers in the neighborhood. The sparrows bring orphans in all the time.

Clearly to me LS knows about Saltpans (and what the Bloody Mummers did there) and that this was the last location where Arya was seen after leaving the Crossroads Inn, and that she was alone by then (the Hound's grave). After that her trail goes cold, but Gendry knows how Arya used disguises to keep herself safe. So, the smartest thing in the hope to retrieve Arya once the trail is cold is set up a guarded orphanage where Sparrows deliver wandering children without an adult companion or parent, and put the one person there who'll recognize her the likeliest, at exactly the same spot where the Hound and she killed Mountain men. It's the smartest thing to do if you hope your child is wandering alone somewhere in the Riverlands. 

Clever. I also hadn't considered (even though it was RIGHT in front of my face) that Gendry could have told LS about Arya.