Is valonqar a title?

[AlexanderHamilton]

First post, so please be kind! I’ve been bothered by an element of Maggy’s prophecy for a while and I apologize if it’s already been discussed to death.

I believe that “valonqar” must be a title or a thing. It could be a person, it might be an object, but it doesn’t refer to just anybody’s little brother.

In my interpretation it is extremely inorganic to use one word of a foreign language in a prophecy delivered entirely in the common tongue. If Maggy meant that Cersei would be killed by her little brother, she could have said that. If she meant that she would be killed by “the little brother,” she could have said that too. The meaning of the word “valonqar” is not even left a mystery to the reader as Cersei explains that she found out what it meant.

One possible explanation for the discrepancy is that GRRM wanted to confuse the reader over which of Cersei’s brothers the prophecy referred to or whether “valonqar” meant any little brother at all. Yet if Maggy had said “your little brother” the Jaime/Tyrion debate would have been the exact same and considering Maggy uses the phrase “the valonqar” as opposed to “your valonqar,” this isn’t even much of an issue.

I think that Maggy uses a loanword that Cersei does not know and that has perhaps fallen into disuse. Loanwords are used with specific reference to their original connotation and often have dual meanings beyond a direct translation. For instance, it would be perfectly natural to say that you dropped you child off at kindergarten without anyone assuming “the child’s garden.” I could also say that Arthur, Brad, and Cathy were going to go home, have some wine, and enjoy a ménage a trois and you could believe that it meant a “household of three,” which it kind of does and mostly doesn’t.

Or, if I told you that, “the dolphin shall wrap his hands around your pale white throat,” you might be left scratching your head. If, on the other hand, I claimed that the dauphin should do the same, you would know exactly what I meant.

So, I think the valonqar might be some sort of torture device, a la the “iron maiden” or, more likely, a title (perhaps something like “youngest prince” or “younger twin” in old Valyria).

[BricksAndSparrows]

If one of parties involved is Valyrian, it might explain the use of the word. Some people think Tyrion is a Targaryen (Aerys Bastard.) That would explain the Maegi's use of the word. The prophecy would serve it's primary purpose, as well as disclosing a little bonus.

I tend to believe that Cersei and Jamie are Aerys'. But it works just as well (for me.)

But I'll allow that it doesn't have to be Cersei's little brother. Though i don't buy into the idea that it could be a little sister as well.

 

[Ckram]

@AlexanderHamilton 

This reddit theory says that "the valonqar" could be the city of Braavos. Not a good theory, though.

Anyhow, the only person who pronounced this word besides Cersei and Maggy was a Tyrosh bounty hunter, which neither confirms nor denies the meaning Cersei attaches to this word:

[...] "I bring you justice. I bring you the head of your valonqar."

The old Valyrian word sent a chill through her, though it also gave her a tingle of hope. "The Imp is no longer my brother, if he ever was," she declared. "Nor will I say his name. It was a proud name once, before he dishonored it."

"In Tyrosh we name him Redhands, for the blood running from his fingers. [...]"

[Universal Sword Donor]

Pretty sure it just means "little brother" in High Valyrian. The theories abound as to who it  could be, but I doubt it'll mean or represent anything else.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I enjoyed this OP, thank you. I will admit I opened this topic feeling very sceptical. But I think you make a fair point. I'm not sure I'm convinced. But certainly your post made sense and if this is the case I'd not think it stupid. 

That quote @Ckram would you mind awfully putting it into context for me. I don't recall it and I don't have access to my books. Is it from a Cersei chapter?  who is the Tyroshi?  

Certainly it is an interesting quote and it does seem to place the word as meaning definitely a persons younger brother. I'd like to know if there is anything in the surrounding text of that which explains his use of the Valyrian word when speaking to Cersei about collecting the bounty on Tyrion. 

I've fish fashed a lot over which little brother it will be. I often think it will be Tyrion because the entire prophesy is self fulfilling, ie: she has caused all the tragedies which Maggi predicted, and Tyrion would never have sought to harm her had her own paranoia and hatred of him not driven him to do so.  But equally I think it may indeed be Jaime, and that she was wrong all along.  The idea of it being a thing, or title is interesting and the idea of a loaned word is very plausible.  And the use of THE instead of Your has always been a sticking point. 

[YOVMO]

16 hours ago, AlexanderHamilton said:

Loanwords are used with specific reference to their original connotation and often have dual meanings

This was a very cool post. I have to think about it a little, but regardless of outcome I think it is a great idea. To add to your idea a little I give you the Magnar. When Jon first tells (I forget who in the NW) that the Magnar is at they gates they think it is someone from the Skagosi house of Kinghouse and Aemon corrects him and says that Jon is using Magnar in the Old Tongue where it means a kind of king (or like a god of sorts) and is referring to the title Magnar of the Thenns

[Ckram]

@The Weirwoods Eyes 

Sure.

The name of the Tyrosh was not revealed. Probably one of the sailors that killed Oppo in Volantis.

From AFFC, Cersei VIII:

Quote

[...]

"There are four come about the Imp this morning," Ser Osmund said, when Jocelyn admitted him.

"Four?" The queen was pleasantly surprised. A steady stream of informers had been making their way to the Red Keep, claiming knowledge of Tyrion, but four in one day was unusual.

"Aye," said Osmund. "One brought a head for you."

"I will see him first. Bring him to my solar." This time, let there be no mistakes. Let me be avenged at long last, so Joff can rest in peace. The septons said that the number seven was sacred to the gods. If so, perhaps this seventh head would bring her the balm her soul desired.

The man proved to be Tyroshi; short and stout and sweaty, with an unctuous smile that reminded her of Varys and a forked beard dyed green and pink. Cersei misliked him on sight, but was willing to overlook his flaws if he actually had Tyrion's head inside the chest he carried. It was cedar, inlaid with ivory in a pattern of vines and flowers, with hinges and clasps of white gold. A lovely thing, but the queen's only interest lay in what might be within. It is big enough, at least. Tyrion had a grotesquely large head, for one so small and stunted.

"Your Grace," the Tyroshi murmured, bowing low, "I see you are as lovely as the tales. Even beyond the narrow sea we have heard of your great beauty, and the grief that tears your gentle heart. No man can restore your brave young son to you, but it is my hope I can at least offer you some balm for your pain." He laid his hand upon his chest. "I bring you justice. I bring you the head of your valonqar."

The old Valyrian word sent a chill through her, though it also gave her a tingle of hope. "The Imp is no longer my brother, if he ever was," she declared. "Nor will I say his name. It was a proud name once, before he dishonored it."

"In Tyrosh we name him Redhands, for the blood running from his fingers. A king's blood, and a father's. Some say he slew his mother too, ripping his way from her womb with savage claws."

What nonsense, Cersei thought. "'Tis true," she said. "If the Imp's head is in that chest, I shall raise you to lordship and grant you rich lands and keeps." Titles were cheaper than dirt, and the riverlands were full of ruined castles, standing desolate amidst untended fields and burned villages. "My court awaits. Open the box and let us see."

The Tyroshi threw open the box with a flourish, and stepped back smiling. Within, the head of a dwarf reposed upon a bed of soft blue velvet, staring up at her.

Cersei took a long look. "That is not my brother." There was a sour taste in her mouth. I suppose it was too much to hope for, especially after Loras. The gods are never that good. "This man has brown eyes. Tyrion had one black eye and one green."

[...]

 

[khal drogon]

Maybe it implies the valonquar might be a female too considering the gender neutrality of the Valyrian language.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

7 hours ago, Ckram said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes 

Sure.

The name of the Tyrosh was not revealed. Probably one of the sailors that killed Oppo in Volantis.

From AFFC, Cersei VIII:

 

Thank you very much for such a thorough quote. 

I think perhaps the most significant thing is the word Your, where Maggie phrased it The. But, Tyrion may well be the little brother of both herself and Rhaegar. Whom she thought she was asking about, and Daenarys whom may be the younger and more beautiful Queen.  And the way the prophesy is phrased mentions her (Cersei) the King (Robert, but she thinks Rhaegar) the younger Queen (insert preferred person here) children and then The younger brother. The Valonquar.  So I think if it is a person specific it is specific to this cast of people who appear in the prophesy.  

The way the Tyroshi man uses the word does make it seem as though it may be a word used when giving a royal person their official title. He is addressing the Queen and talking of her little brother. So maybe when talking of royalties direct relatives there are old Valyrian words used specifically to denote their status. Maybe it was a Targaryen practice? though we have no references to it in any novella's or the world book which is a shame. 

 

[Arya_Stupid!]

You make some good points for sure, we also may take into account that Cersei is already getting the pronunciation and therefore the meaning of one important word in this episode very wrong. She is prideful, ignorant and arrogant and believes she knows everything.

But Maegi is very different than the name Maggy the Frog.

 

lately i am of the opinion that the valonqar (if the interpretation of 'little brother' is correct) will be one of the Kettleblack brothers. I don't think they will all come out of this round of trials alive, and i think any that do will be out for Cersei's blood. She hired them all and involved them in her treasons - i'm betting they hold a grudge.

[Ckram]

@The Weirwoods Eyes

There's something else: Tyrosh's Valyrian is not High Valyrian, but what is called "Bastard Valyrian" or "Vulgar Valyrian" (in reference to the many dialects of the nine Free Cities)

Septa Saranella told Cersei that valonqar means "little brother" in High Valyrian, but we don't know for sure if the word has the same meaning in Tyrosh and the other Free Cities.

If Maggy the frog was a maegi from Essos (or a close relative of one), she could have in mind the High Valyrian meaning or some Bastard Valyrian meaning.

@Arya_Stupid!

What characterizes Maggy as a maegi is not only the suspicion that the name was misspoken (raised in the book), but also her ability to tell the future from a drop of blood, which seems to be some kind of blood magic.

About the Kettleblacks: Never Thought. Cool.

[Neds Secret]

I think that it will be lady's little brother Ghost, who will avenge Lady's death at Cerseis request by ripping Cersei's throat out.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 hours ago, Ckram said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes

There's something else: Tyrosh's Valyrian is not High Valyrian, but what is called "Bastard Valyrian" or "Vulgar Valyrian" (in reference to the many dialects of the nine Free Cities)

Septa Saranella told Cersei that valonqar means "little brother" in High Valyrian, but we don't know for sure if the word has the same meaning in Tyrosh and the other Free Cities.

If Maggy the frog was a maegi from Essos (or a close relative of one), she could have in mind the High Valyrian meaning or some Bastard Valyrian meaning.

@Arya_Stupid!

What characterizes Maggy as a maegi is not only the suspicion that the name was misspoken (raised in the book), but also her ability to tell the future from a drop of blood, which seems to be some kind of blood magic.

About the Kettleblacks: Never Thought. Cool.

Maggy is said to have come to Westeros with her husband, who had been trading spices in the east. I think Maggy came from further east than the 9 free cities. They were the founders of house Spicer, and their coat of arms contains Pepperpots and the colour Saffron. Spices found further east than the Mediterranean which is the climate represented in the free cities.  And when we look for these spices in world we find them in Sisters Stew which Davos eats, and are told that the spices were taken from a Sloe Eyes Maid. which is the name of a ship Dany encounters in Quarth, a place famous for trade from the east, through the Jade Gate, and which has an ancient guild of Spicers.  I think Maggy more likely to come from further east than the free cities, and with her knowledge of Blood Magic it hints to Ashai, as being somewhere she has spent time also.  

 

[Ckram]

@The Weirwoods Eyes

Although I think that Quarth and Asshai are possibilities that cannot be discarded, they are not the only good ones.

You don't need to come from Qarth to be part of the spice business (eg. Illyrio Mopatis and the Volantines), and bloodmagic is said to be practiced both in Qohor and Asshai (although - again - you don't need to be from Qohor or Asshai to learn those arts, like did Mirri Maz Duur).

All I'm saying is that Maggy the frog and the Tyrosh bounty hunter could be refering to some "Bastard Valyrian" meaning of valonqar. Or even worst: Maggy to one meaning, the Tyrosh to another.

Tyrion have made an observation of how different the language of the nine Free Cities are from each other:

He had learned to read High Valyrian at his maester's knee, though what they spoke in the Nine Free Cities … well, it was not so much a dialect as nine dialects on the way to becoming separate tongues. Tyrion had some Braavosi and a smattering of Myrish. In Tyrosh he should be able to curse the gods, call a man a cheat, and order up an ale, thanks to a sellsword he had once known at the Rock.

So, a person who knows High Valyran doesn't really know any Bastard Valyrian, even the well-educated Tyrion.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

MMD learned her Blood Magic through travelling to Ashai, no one is from Ashai as such. There are no children there.  I think the combination of spices and blood magic hint at somewhere further east than the free cities for Maggy's origins. Not that this means she wouldn't speak a bastard version of Valyrian. 

[TheSeason]

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 9:55 PM, Ckram said:

  "There are four come about the Imp this morning," Ser Osmund said, when Jocelyn admitted him.

"Four?" The queen was pleasantly surprised. A steady stream of informers had been making their way to the Red Keep, claiming knowledge of Tyrion, but four in one day was unusual.

"Aye," said Osmund. "One brought a head for you."

"I will see him first. Bring him to my solar." This time, let there be no mistakes. Let me be avenged at long last, so Joff can rest in peace. The septons said that the number seven was sacred to the gods. If so, perhaps this seventh head would bring her the balm her soul desired.

The man proved to be Tyroshi; short and stout and sweaty, with an unctuous smile that reminded her of Varys and a forked beard dyed green and pink. Cersei misliked him on sight, but was willing to overlook his flaws if he actually had Tyrion's head inside the chest he carried. It was cedar, inlaid with ivory in a pattern of vines and flowers, with hinges and clasps of white gold. A lovely thing, but the queen's only interest lay in what might be within. It is big enough, at least. Tyrion had a grotesquely large head, for one so small and stunted.

"Your Grace," the Tyroshi murmured, bowing low, "I see you are as lovely as the tales. Even beyond the narrow sea we have heard of your great beauty, and the grief that tears your gentle heart. No man can restore your brave young son to you, but it is my hope I can at least offer you some balm for your pain." He laid his hand upon his chest. "I bring you justice. I bring you the head of your valonqar."

The old Valyrian word sent a chill through her, though it also gave her a tingle of hope. "The Imp is no longer my brother, if he ever was," she declared. "Nor will I say his name. It was a proud name once, before he dishonored it."

"In Tyrosh we name him Redhands, for the blood running from his fingers. A king's blood, and a father's. Some say he slew his mother too, ripping his way from her womb with savage claws."

What nonsense, Cersei thought. "'Tis true," she said. "If the Imp's head is in that chest, I shall raise you to lordship and grant you rich lands and keeps." Titles were cheaper than dirt, and the riverlands were full of ruined castles, standing desolate amidst untended fields and burned villages. "My court awaits. Open the box and let us see."

The Tyroshi threw open the box with a flourish, and stepped back smiling. Within, the head of a dwarf reposed upon a bed of soft blue velvet, staring up at her.

Cersei took a long look. "That is not my brother." There was a sour taste in her mouth. I suppose it was too much to hope for, especially after Loras. The gods are never that good. "This man has brown eyes. Tyrion had one black eye and one green."

This is a great quote! One I forget about constantly when discussing the Valonqar, unfortunately. It stuck out to me when I first read it, and it sticks out to me now.

Some thoughts:

1. I bring you justice. I bring you the head of your valonqar.

I cannot imagine any circumstance in which Cersei would have given such a detailed proclamation when requesting Tyrion's head from the masses. She hasn't even shared this prophecy and this word with Jaime after decades... The only time she's shared this word with anyone was to ask her Septa what it meant and in passing to Taena when discussing Tyrion (something like, "do you use that word?" IIRC). Jaime has little-to-no idea why Cersei has always hated Tyrion the way she has, and it seems like he should if she made public any part of the prophecy (if only because he should wonder, "what is a valonqar?"). So, if Cersei never shared this word with the public (and I cannot imagine why she should have), it follows that the Tyroshi must have thought the word organic to the conversation they were having at the time. He brings the word up, and Cersei is horrified at its (coincidental) use.

2. If the Tyroshi really did use the word organically, it doesn't read like he used the word to say "little brother" the way Cersei presumed he did (because she thinks she already knows what the word means). It does appear he is using a loanword to describe something that has no translational counterpart into the Common Tongue, which he speaks fluently (there's no indication he speaks broken Common Tongue, so there's no reason for him to switch to High (or Vulgar) Valyrian to say something so quotidian as "little brother.")

3. If Valonqar is a loanword not meaning "little brother" he may be continuing his thought from one sentence to the next, which would make it read:

"I bring you justice. I bring you the head of your valonqar. In Tyrosh we name him Redhands, for the blood running from his fingers. A king's blood, and a father's. Some say** he slew his mother too, ripping his way from her womb with savage claws."

"What nonsense," Cersei thought, but it is not nonsense. It may well be a clue to the meaning of Valonqar.

In Tyrosh, the Valonqar is a legendary(?) traitorous figure who: 1. killed a king, who possibly was his own father (or killed a king and killed his father), 2. killed his mother in childbed, and 3. had dragony* traits.

*True, they need not necessarily be dragon traits, only beastly, but when I think "Valyria" and "beast" I think "dragon."

** Some say? It's a known fact that Tyrion's mother died in childbed with him (in universe, barring any Silent Sister theories!), so why should only some make this claim if they were talking about Tyrion here and not "the Valonqar," who- or whatever he is?

So far that leads to: kingslayer, kinslayer, born with the dead, and dragon. (This is starting to sound a lot like the Blood Betrayal of legend, actually. I wouldn't be surprised if the loanword had some connection to that.)

 

Some additional thoughts:

1. That is a very expensive coffer! Made of cedar inlaid with ivory vines and flowers (Dany accepts ivory in place of silver every time a slave changes hands in Meereen, but has no need of "zorse hides" in Dance), with clasps of white gold, and large enough to fit a head of monstrous size ("grotesquely large"). The head is upon "a bed of soft blue velvet" also. 

2. I'm oddly curious about the Tyroshi's green and pink forked beard, and if there is some symbolic hint to it. Illyrio* has a forked yellow beard, I recall, a purely devilish symbol, as well as Daario (his dyed blue/purple) and there's something about the color combination of green and pink that I haven't quite worked out yet. There's a green and pink pyramid in Meereen. Meereen's champion had a pink and gold lance striped lance, too, but there may have been some bit of green in the mix (IIRC). There's the Green Grace, too. Lots of green and/or pink around Meereen. I can't remember off the top of my head where else we might have seen it.

*The Tyroshi's unctuous smile reminding of Varys also leads in this line of thought.

3. Is this the head of Oppo or is it the head of the other dwarf, the one whose body was found in the mouth of the first dragon head (eater of the dead, the Destroyer) of Three-Headed Trios (in the triune of Creator-Preserver-Destroyer) in Volantis, whom Penny spoke of? If the latter, that's another intriguing point that may add weight to the interpretation that the loanword somehow bespeaks the Blood Betrayal legend/the three-headed dragon. Especially with it being the seventh head to come to Cersei. The number four (the visitors who wished to speak with Cersei that day) may be a number of evil, too (in the form of four-and-forty, at the least).

4. The name Redhands of course brings to mind Red R'hllor and his followers. The slave warriors of the temple are called the Red Hand of R'hllor, and Tyrion meets five on the Selaesori Qhoran (the Fragrant "Stinky" Steward/perfumed seneschal) whom he nicknamed the Fingers. A curious thing, again, that Redhands and Red Hand might be thematically linked to murder most foul ("king"slaying, kinslaying, born with the dead), which might make sense if Azor Ahai is not or at some point was not the heroic figure the Asshaii/R'hllorists claim (the worth of Cersei's valonqar's head -- title and a "desolate" and "ruined castle" upon "untended fields... amidst burned villages" might give the reader a resonant context then). If Redhands/Red Hand and Valonqar are more connected in context than at first it appears, of course.

5. The Tyroshi uses "your valonqar" whereas Maegi Spicer uses "the valonqar," which might indicate a higher context to the word, where he is using it because it is applicable to the situation Cersei is in but still retains some separate connotation (her valonqar being Tyrion, but the valonqar being the figure of infamy first and foremost).

12 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Maggy is said to have come to Westeros with her husband, who had been trading spices in the east. I think Maggy came from further east than the 9 free cities. They were the founders of house Spicer, and their coat of arms contains Pepperpots and the colour Saffron. Spices found further east than the Mediterranean which is the climate represented in the free cities.  And when we look for these spices in world we find them in Sisters Stew which Davos eats, and are told that the spices were taken from a Sloe Eyes Maid. which is the name of a ship Dany encounters in Quarth, a place famous for trade from the east, through the Jade Gate, and which has an ancient guild of Spicers.  I think Maggy more likely to come from further east than the free cities, and with her knowledge of Blood Magic it hints to Ashai, as being somewhere she has spent time also.  

 

This is an excellent point. I could believe Maegi Spicer came from the far, far east (even east of the Bones Mountains) nearby the Jade Sea or beyond the Saffron Straits, and it would be fitting if indeed she's using a Valyrian word that in some way hearkens back to the Blood Betrayal of legend (having GEotD history).

The curious thing about Cersei's dream of the tourney of Lannisport, is that is it seems Maegi Spicer had put blood magic behind her by that point, or at least was only there to sell spices. If that is really how the event took place. She seemed incredibly reluctant for someone who seemingly made her living with spellwork, the way she is said to have done in the past. Her tent is redolent with spices though, and she married a man who made his wealth upon them, so much so "Spicer" became the family name. (It would be interesting if he took the name from the Guild of Spicers which his wife--or her family--previously belonged to as well, which makes a certain sense, especially if the money came largely through their union.)

[Arya_Stupid!]

16 hours ago, Ckram said:

 

@Arya_Stupid!

What characterizes Maggy as a maegi is not only the suspicion that the name was misspoken (raised in the book), but also her ability to tell the future from a drop of blood, which seems to be some kind of blood magic.

About the Kettleblacks: Never Thought. Cool.

'Maggy' has definitely got some kind of blood magic/foretelling abilities going on. I wonder if they are hereditary abilities or only learned? That could have implications for Jeyne Westerling somewhere down the line, what with 'Maggy' being her mother's mother and all.

 

Kettleblack thing is a relatively new idea for me too. I was listening to a podcast about the WOW Alayne chapter, and noticed how the Kettleblack father rides in with his horse all lathered near chapters end, with news of the Capital.

And then i remembered that Kevan had had all his sons arrested/fired, and at least 2 of them are implicated in Cersei's treasons and fornications.

The Elder Kettleblack must be super worried for his sons, and himself too really. I mean can you see Littlefinger lifting a single little finger to help his henchman? I think he'd rather tie up loose ends and have them ALL killed. Lol, i'm kind of rambling here, but i think one will survive to go after Cersei.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Assuming the meaning that Cersei learned in childhood is correct, the use of valonqar is most likely for the purpose of keeping the readers guessing.

Also, it's very appropriate for a Maegi from Essos to use some Valyrian terms in her speech. 

My personal favorite crackpot on the "little brother" definition is that it's someone from, or the entire company of, the Second Sons.

Otherwise, there's Cersei's brothers, Robert's brothers, Robert's sons, Cersei's younger son (probably as a wight), a brother of the YMBQ, or someone like Edmure Tully or Benjen Stark who have reason to hate Cersei. 

Here's another potential factor: there's been some speculation that Cersei might team up with Euron Greyjoy. If that happens we then have to deal with the possibility that all of what Maggy the Frog said was about Cersei's second marriage, which means that Victarion Greyjoy (younger brother to Euron, already strangled a woman to death) could be the valonqar.

I'm very curious to see if anything comes from the fact that Robb's widow is descended from the very woman who gave Cersei that fortune. Can't recall if that's confirmed or merely implied. It would certainly spice things up, pun intended.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 8/16/2016 at 9:13 PM, khal drogon said:

Maybe it implies the valonquar might be a female too considering the gender neutrality of the Valyrian language.

The Valyrian language is not gender neutral. Common misconception. The Valyrian word for dragon is only gender-neutral because dragons themselves have flexible gender.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 8/19/2016 at 2:44 AM, Neds Secret said:

I think that it will be lady's little brother Ghost, who will avenge Lady's death at Cerseis request by ripping Cersei's throat out.

The language is specific about the valonqar wrapping his hands around Cersei's throat. Can't be a direwolf.