Is valonqar a title?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I personally dislike interpretations where there's something to the prophecy hidden from Cersei (like, another meaning of valonqar). I believe that she has everything she needs to correctly decipher the message, yet obviously fails.

It simply makes the puzzle neater, while an unrevealed clue smells like cheating.

(And yes, it's Tommen. "You'll have three children, they all will die, then the youngest one will strangle you" - Maggy almost couldn't have been clearer if she tried!)

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

7 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I personally dislike interpretations where there's something to the prophecy hidden from Cersei (like, another meaning of valonqar). I believe that she has everything she needs to correctly decipher the message, yet obviously fails.

It simply makes the puzzle neater, while an unrevealed clue smells like cheating.

(And yes, it's Tommen. "You'll have three children, they all will die, then the youngest one will strangle you" - Maggy almost couldn't have been clearer if she tried!)

I understood the prophecy in the same way, the valonqar being Tommen. 

I think it would be really interesting if Jaime is the one that ends up killing Cersei, but I think Maggy should have said your valonqar instead of the the valonqar.

So I always thought Tommen would die, but then come back and strangle Cersei. 

[A Black Hole of Ice & Fire]

Perhaps valonqar means dwarf? It could explain why the Tyroshi said "your valonqar" since Cersei wants Tyrion specifically. Its not clear why Maggy uses the word, but there are several options such as her not knowing the word dwarf in the Common Tongue or that a different dwarf eventually kills Cersei. It could even be specific type of dwarf, like one employed as a fool, advisor, or possessing certain skills and talents. In which case it may refer to a future position or skill Tyrion will achieve, one we haven't been introduced to yet. Its just a thought, I'm not all that inclined to believe it though. 

[Littlefinger's dagger]

"You'll have three children, they all will die, then the youngest one will strangle you"

So according to this theory, Tommen dies and then tries to strangle Cercei? 

Unless Tommen is resurrected and strangles her as a wight, that seems unlikely. I'm not buying the idea of a blue eyed zombie Tommen.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

23 minutes ago, Littlefinger's dagger said:

"You'll have three children, they all will die, then the youngest one will strangle you"

So according to this theory, Tommen dies and then tries to strangle Cercei? 

Unless Tommen is resurrected and strangles her as a wight,

Bingo.

23 minutes ago, Littlefinger's dagger said:

that seems unlikely. I'm not buying the idea of a blue eyed zombie Tommen.

 

Well then, keep reading.

[Littlefinger's dagger]

Any textual foreshadowing to back this idea up? As the person making an assertion you'd need to have persuasive proof ready to go.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Littlefinger's dagger said:

Any textual foreshadowing to back this idea up? As the person making an assertion you'd need to have persuasive proof ready to go.

First, the prophecy itself. It's Cersei who split the last answer into multiple parts, to murk the image up, and people who go valonqar hunting  just go with the arbitrary (on Cersei's part!) paragraph break, and go either "she thinks it's Tyrion, so it's Jaime" or "any younger brother in the world will do" (and almost any younger brother, or sister, has already been suggested in all seriousness: Stark, Tyrell, Clegane, Baratheon, Kettleblack, no matter, direwolves not excluded, nor entire sellsword companies).

“Will the king and I have children?” she asked.

“Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.” That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she’d cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

The old woman was not done with her, however. “Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

In Cersei's mind Maggy the Frog first answers the question about the children, and then suddenly goes off on a tangent. Let's remove her comments and inner train of thought, though, and leave only what's actually been said:

“Will the king and I have children?”

“Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, and when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

One paragraph. One subject. Robert's and Cersei's children. The entire sequence refers to the same three people, who were named Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen.

And if you want foreshadowing, then, by all means:

He stayed in the tree, scarce daring to breathe, while the moon crept slowly across the black sky. Finally, his muscles cramping and his fingers numb with cold, he climbed down. Royce’s body lay facedown in the snow, one arm outflung. The thick sable cloak had been slashed in a dozen places. Lying dead like that, you saw how young he was. A boy.

He found what was left of the sword a few feet away, the end splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning. Will knelt, looked around warily, and snatched it up. The broken sword would be his proof. Gared would know what to make of it, and if not him, then surely that old bear Mormont or Maester Aemon. Would Gared still be waiting with the horses? He had to hurry.

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him.

His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw. The broken sword fell from nerveless fingers. Will closed his eyes to pray. Long, elegant hands brushed his cheek, then tightened around his throat. They were gloved in the finest moleskin and sticky with blood, yet the touch was icy cold.

A dead boy, who unexpectedly rose from the dead just to wrap his two hands around Will's throat and choke the life from him.

But, as I said, keep reading. It's obviously impossible to prove what's yet to happen, so let's just hope GRRM writes some more books.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

FVR, as I've said before, you are assuming several things, such as that Maggy the Frog understands general English grammar and usage rules. And the fact that since we are given only Cersei's POV on this, she may even have heard something wrong, mixed something up, or for once in her life actually heard it and understood it exactly as Maggy meant it; which means the "proper" interpretation has a 50% chance of being wrong despite seeming to be right. A third, and much more fun option of course is that Maggy meant one thing but deliberately phrased it in a way that would make Cersei think of another, which with GRRM means that he means one thing and we get something else out of it. 

If we're going to insist that it must be one of the children who kills Cersei, then we have to include the children of the King in question, since they are mentioned in that paragraph as well. Gendry is as strong as young Robert was, and is younger than his sister Mya. 

I maintain that using the word "the" leaves it open to interpretation beyond it being Tommen or one of Cersei's brothers, but that Jaime still makes the most sense based on what evidence we have now. All the major things in the series are foreshadowed in AGoT. Based on info in that book alone, Jaime is the most likely candidate. Adding info from the rest of the series just adds more to the possibility of Jaime. Granted it also adds possibilities for other candidates, but Jaime's in the lead for now.

There's been foreshadowing of wights and strangling by them, but nothing that seems to indicate Tommen specifically becoming one. However...this just struck me...let's say Myrcella is dead (or will be soon) and Tommen dies--do you think Cersei would ask Qyburn to reanimate him a la Ser Robert Strong? That would be another option for Tommen ending up with super strength that doesn't require him living long enough for the Others to get past the Wall. In that case I could definitely see Tommen being the valonqar in question.

Of course we also have the issue of the obvious. What's GRRM's percentage on the obvious actually being the correct answer to mysteries in this series so far? Tyrion or Tommen would seem to be the obvious choices, which is one of the reasons I can't seem to become convinced it's either of them. Doesn't mean I'm right, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong either.

The only way to know is wait and see. In the meantime we can all remember that only GRRM knows for sure, so no matter how certain we are there's still a good chance we're all wrong.

[Littlefinger's dagger]

If you need to redact portions of the text to make your case hold together, that's not a good sign.

I suppose wight Tommen or FrankenTommen is a possibility, though an unconvincing one. The wight attack on Mormont in Castle black also shows  that wights favor strangling, but I have to ask a slightly Walking Dead question: if Tommen dies and his corpse is reanimated, is that still Tommen? Beric is subjected to a different resurrection, one where he retains at least some of his memory and character. If Tommen's corpse becomes a full-on Wight, there's no person there, it's just a killing drone. That's the conclusion reached in Walking Dead, and that's the direction I'd lean here, in which case it doesn't fulfill the prophecy.

My suspect list still has Jaime sitting at the top, followed by one of the Kettleblacks and possibly Gendry. They all seem more likely to me, believe what you will.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

20 minutes ago, Littlefinger's dagger said:

If you need to redact portions of the text to make your case hold together, that's not a good sign.

Well, calling what I did "redacting" is intellectual dishonesty. Bye.

 

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 6.09.2016 at 9:12 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

FVR, as I've said before, you are assuming several things, such as that Maggy the Frog understands general English grammar and usage rules. And the fact that since we are given only Cersei's POV on this, she may even have heard something wrong, mixed something up, or for once in her life actually heard it and understood it exactly as Maggy meant it; which means the "proper" interpretation has a 50% chance of being wrong despite seeming to be right. A third, and much more fun option of course is that Maggy meant one thing but deliberately phrased it in a way that would make Cersei think of another, which with GRRM means that he means one thing and we get something else out of it. 

But that's exactly what I'm getting at: Maggy lets Cersei draw her own erroneous conclusions. While, actually, being honest. As for, whether Maggy speaks good English and Cersei reported the conversation faithfully - it's a kind of an unspoken gentlemen's agreement between the writer and me: he gives me a clue, I believe it's credible.

On 6.09.2016 at 9:12 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If we're going to insist that it must be one of the children who kills Cersei, then we have to include the children of the King in question, since they are mentioned in that paragraph as well. Gendry is as strong as young Robert was, and is younger than his sister Mya. 

Maybe you must, I don't feel obliged to. Especially as Gendry 1) is one of the oldest Robert's bastards (so calling him "the valonqar" would not have been in good faith), 2) means nothing to Cersei, therefore I don't think it would make a particularly good story.

Cersei's last thought should be rather "I finally understand!", than "huh? who the fuck?!".

On 6.09.2016 at 9:12 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Of course we also have the issue of the obvious. What's GRRM's percentage on the obvious actually being the correct answer to mysteries in this series so far? Tyrion or Tommen would seem to be the obvious choices, which is one of the reasons I can't seem to become convinced it's either of them. Doesn't mean I'm right, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong either.

Considering that the book was published in 2005, and the first ever mentions of Tommen possibly being the valonqar seem to emerge around 2013, and moreover to this day the hypothesis gets reactions along the lines of "what? I've never heard this one before", or "far-fetched bordering on absurd", the charge of being "obvious" is therefore dismissed.

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 15/8/2016 at 11:58 PM, AlexanderHamilton said:

First post, so please be kind! I’ve been bothered by an element of Maggy’s prophecy for a while and I apologize if it’s already been discussed to death.

I believe that “valonqar” must be a title or a thing. It could be a person, it might be an object, but it doesn’t refer to just anybody’s little brother.

In my interpretation it is extremely inorganic to use one word of a foreign language in a prophecy delivered entirely in the common tongue. If Maggy meant that Cersei would be killed by her little brother, she could have said that. If she meant that she would be killed by “the little brother,” she could have said that too. The meaning of the word “valonqar” is not even left a mystery to the reader as Cersei explains that she found out what it meant.

One possible explanation for the discrepancy is that GRRM wanted to confuse the reader over which of Cersei’s brothers the prophecy referred to or whether “valonqar” meant any little brother at all. Yet if Maggy had said “your little brother” the Jaime/Tyrion debate would have been the exact same and considering Maggy uses the phrase “the valonqar” as opposed to “your valonqar,” this isn’t even much of an issue.

So, I think the valonqar might be some sort of torture device, a la the “iron maiden” or, more likely, a title (perhaps something like “youngest prince” or “younger twin” in old Valyria).

I disagree about the valonqar being a thing and I agree about the title only if you use the word not stricly as a 'title' (assuming valonqar means 'younger twin', it's not a proper 'title', there is no such position or rank or whatever which is called like that, it's not like 'kingsguard' or 'queen'...it's basically just what the word means).

It's interesting though, because if it meant younger 'twin' instead of 'brother', the article would make sense because there are just two twins, so excluding Cersei, we would have THE Valonqar (if GRRM didn't wanna say 'your') because there is just one. Tyrion couldn't be the little twin.

So, I think it's a person and it's Cersei's 'little' brother, Jamie (the only other candidates would be Tyrion - and I don't think he is - or Arya, if it was gender neutral or changing her face in Tyrion/Jamie's - again, unlikely.

This is not on point to me: "If Maggy meant that Cersei would be killed by her little brother, she could have said that": that's not how prophecy/dreams work, you don't ask yourself "why didn't the vision about the Maid slaying a savage giant in a castle made of now just say that Sansa will cause Littlefinger's death in Winterfell?"; prophecies/dreams/visions and such are meant to be ambiguous (to different degrees) and using a foreign word might help the Author to achieve that result.

He already played the 'gender neutral 'trick with the Valyrian word prince/princess, which is a foreign word and which that turned out to be gender neutral so that it might be both Jon or Daenerys (assuming it's just one person ... or assuming it exists), so I think he wouldn't use the same stratagem twice.

Also, Maggy was not a Westerosi woman, she was an Essosi fortune teller and Essos was dominated by the Valyrians for centuries... so that Valyrian is definitely a language they speak over there... and the word 'Maegi' itself (which became Maggy in Westeros) is possibly High Valyrian ... hence it's possible that it just it came natural to her to throw in a Valyrian word (High Valyrian, as she was the wife of a wealthy man) as in conversations people often throw in a word in their native language (or another language they know well) when they can't recall the same in the language they're talking in or because it fits better or just before they can think of it.

So I think GRRM wanted people to ask themselves what Valonqar meant (we are told it means 'little brother' in a different chapter than the one about Maggy and in a way that mislead us to think it's Tyrion), if Valoquar truly meant 'little brother', whose little brother (that's why Maggy didn't say 'your'), which one amongst Cersei's little brothers, if it might be gender neutral (so that it might be Arya.. Cersei is on the list...as I said I tend to think it's not, because GRRM wouldn't use the same 'trick' more than once), etc..

It might be for the same reason that it says 'the valonqar', as if it's a title or something: it makes it more confusing and leads Cersei to think the Valonqar is some kind of monster (she learns it means little brother only later asking the Septa); the article might also be referring to his actions like 'the little brother (who will kill you) or maybe, as you suggested, if the true meaning was 'younger twin', than

Some people suggested the word 'valonquar' might be composed by vala (=man) + something when the ethymology is concerned, like 'the man who is little' or 'man who commits murder' or whatever.

In this perspective, some people suggested it might be Arya, maybe wearing Tyrion's or Jaimie's face. I think it's a bit stretched, but you never know.

GRRM might have also used 'valonqar' to further make us think it was Tyrion, because he left KL for outside-Westeros places where they don't (or don't only) speak the common tongue but they do speak Valyrian (high or low, only highborn people usually speaks high valyrian) as well ... and Tyrion is able to read High Valyrian.

Anyway, to me it means 'little brother' and it's Jamie, he will be the one killing Cersei, while Cersei has always thought it would be Tyrion, who is yrs younger than her and 'little' in height and whom she hates. The fact Tyrion strangles Shae is to me another red flag to make us think it's him, since Maggy said that's how Cersei will die.

Jamie is younger than Cersei too tho, he doesn't love her anymore (he has realized Cersei betrayed him with many men, he is developing feelings for Brienne) and - most important - he has grown to think Cersei = Aerys, aka Cersei = the man Jamie killed 

Quote

Jaime ignored that. "If these flames spread beyond the tower, you may end up burning down the castle whether you mean to or not. Wildfire is treacherous."

"Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire." The Guild of Alchemists had been brewing fresh wildfire for a fortnight. "Let all of King's Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies." 

"Now you sound like Aerys."

And again

Quote

Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said. 

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. 

Quote

"I govern the realm."

Seven save us all, you do. His sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted. She had been giddy as a maiden when she learned that Stannis had abandoned Dragonstone, certain that he had finally given up the fight and sailed away to exile. When word came down from the north that he had turned up again at the Wall, her fury had been fearful to behold. She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience"

She is indeed is starting to be increasingly paranoid as he was and she enjoys wildfire too much (see her AFfC povs) l

Quote

"As you command. And you as well?"

"No need." Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. "The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while." 

Jaime hesitated. "You should not stay alone."

Plus, Jamie has already sent Cersei to f*** herself, in a way the clearly is symbolic of a change in his  heart and allegiances

Quote

He woke in darkness, shivering. The room had grown cold as ice. Jaime flung aside the covers with the stump of his sword hand. The fire in the hearth had died, he saw, and the window had blown open. He crossed the pitch-dark chamber to fumble with the shutters, but when he reached the window his bare foot came down in something wet. Jaime recoiled, startled for a moment. His first thought was of blood, but blood would not have been so cold.

It was snow, drifting through the window. 

Instead of closing the shutters he threw them wide.

(...) 

It was Riverrun's old maester, with a message clutched in his lined and wrinkled hand. Vyman's face was as pale as the new-fallen snow. "I know," Jaime said, "there has been a white raven from the Citadel. Winter has come."

"No, my lord. The bird was from King's Landing. I took the liberty . . . I did not know . . ." He held the letter out. 

Jaime read it in the window seat, bathed in the light of that cold white morning. Qyburn's words were terse and to the point, Cersei's fevered and fervent. <Come at once, she said. Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once>.

Vyman was hovering by the door, waiting, and Jaime sensed that Peck was watching too. "Does my lord wish to answer?" the maester asked, after a long silence. 

A snowflake landed on the letter. As it melted, the ink began to blur. Jaime rolled the parchment up again, as tight as one hand would allow, and handed it to Peck. "No," he said. "Put this in the fire."

Now, I'm not sure he won't kill himself in the process (because of that idea, that Jamie always had, that he and Cersei came to the world together and would die together): I hope for Jamie's sake that but it won't be like that but I don't see him survive the series.

Finally, it might be fun (despite likely irrelevant) to have a look at the anagrams and acronyms of Valonqar and Little Brother..  just at first sight a partial anagram of Valonquar is 'valor' but it would be fun to have a closer look.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

<snip

Maybe you must, I don't feel obliged to. Especially as Gendry 1) is one of the oldest Robert's bastards (so calling him "the valonqar" would not have been in good faith), 2) means nothing to Cersei, therefore I don't think it would make a particularly good story.

Cersei's last thought should be rather "I finally understand!", than "huh? who the fuck?!".

Considering that the book was published in 2005, and the first ever mentions of Tommen possibly being the valonqar seem to emerge around 2013, and moreover to this day the hypothesis gets reactions along the lines of "what? I've never heard this one before", or "far-fetched bordering on absurd", the charge of being "obvious" is therefore dismissed.

1. Gendry is not THE oldest. Therefore he is a little brother. We as readers know this. Ned specifically tells us that Robert's first bastard was Mya. She's the oldest. Everybody else is "little" brother or sister. Leave him out if you want. 

2. Means nothing to Cersei so far. Doesn't mean it will stay that way. If Gendry finds out who his father was, and that the queen had a bunch of his brothers and sisters killed (and his father too), he could well mention these things as he chokes the life out of her. 

Obvious to people who read in-depth. Like you. Me. Most of the people who watch GoT had never heard of R+L=J before this last season. Doesn't mean it wasn't obvious to those of us who have read and analyzed the books. There are only a couple of obvious little brother options: Tyrion, Jaime, Tommen--since most people don't seem to see how any one not literally related to Cersei could possibly connect with her and kill her.

[Littlefinger's dagger]

23 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Well, calling what I did "redacting" is intellectual dishonesty. Bye.

 

 

LOL. What else would you call conveniently ignoring and even excising parts of the canon text that get in your way?

Pot. Kettleblack.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

11 minutes ago, Littlefinger's dagger said:

LOL. What else would you call conveniently ignoring and even excising parts of the canon text that get in your way?

Sigh. I took under consideration the entire text of the prophecy, every single word of it, i. e. facts, and disregarded only Cersei's own thoughts of it, i. e. one biased character's interpretation. Anyway, if we're obliged to accept Cersei's interpretation, then it's Tyrion, period, and any discussion is pointless.

It's not a very difficult to understand, that's why I believe you are being dishonest.

[Littlefinger's dagger]

No, it's not difficult to follow the argument, but it's dishonest to rewrite the canon text to suit yourself and to make your point. The funniest part is that I don't think you even need to do it to make your point, but that you're willing to makes me skeptical all by itself. It's just very sloppy.

It could be stated simply as: The question was about Cercei and Robert's children. So was the answer, which was interrupted briefly by Cercei's internal dialogue. That Cercei immediately assumes the second half was a tangent is Cercei's error, and given the sheer number of Cercei's blunders this should surprise nobody. I can agree with that enough to follow to the next step to see where it goes.

Even accepting the slightly different spin on the prophecy, which limits eligibility to children of Cercei and Robert (which you're far too willing to ignore without any reason presented), we are left with either a younger brother mothered by Cercei rising from the dead (and at least three ways for that to happen) or a surviving child of Robert's doing her in. Mya Stone( born 279), Edric Storm (287), and Gendry Waters (284) are the only survivors of Cercei's purge. So that makes Edric storm the younger of the two living brothers (both of them younger brothers), and even with all the resurrections in the show I think it more likely that Edric finds a way to return from exile than it would be for Tommen to conveniently rise from the dead. Gendry would do it in a heartbeat if Arya snuck him in the castle, very little plot movement needed for that.

I'm not being obtuse, I understand the point you wish to make. I just don't agree. Even taking all other "younger brothers" off the table you haven't excluded Robert's surviving boys, so Tommen is not the only option.

[TheSeason]

@Ferocious Veldt Roarer It's interesting that you see Tommen as the valonqar. I admit it would make a nice parallel with the prologue of Game, but I don't see any other foreshadowing for this possibility, unless there's something you held back?

I interpret the prophecy a bit differently. I think Jaime is the valonqar in question (because Cersei identified him during the foretelling as her obedient eternal protector--I think Cersei defined the parameters of what would be taken from her and possibly even how with her questions and statements during the foretelling. I also think the prophecy had as much to do with current events as future events.) To quote myself from another thread on the topic:

On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 11:26 AM, TheSeason said:

I think the prophecy has a great deal to do with current events at the time it was made, actually, as well as some future events. Maegi Spicer knows already what Cersei wants--because the whole world has already guessed what that tourney is for--and Cersei herself confirms this to her. It is Cersei who determines what will be taken from her, by stating what she holds most dear at that time. There are not many "active" parties in the prophecy, then, but only: Rhaegar Targaryen, Jaime Lannister, and Lyanna Stark; this is established by Cersei's own word. The Tower of Joy elements are there to help us connect the two queens, as well as possibly provide some context for the Valonqar portion of the prophecy. I had started to do an analysis of this passage, actually.

I interpret the prophecy like this (and yes, it's chock full of "lies" of omission):

  Hide contents

 

1. Cersei wants to marry Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

Cersei: When will I marry the prince?

Implied: The prince currently is Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.

Maegi: You won't. You'll marry the king.

Omission: He will not be the king you want.

 

2. Cersei wants to be a queen. Cersei wants Jaime's loyalty and sword, even as she plans to have a life with another man (his queen, his wife, mother of his children); Cersei wants Jaime to be her eternal protector.  

 

Cersei: But I will be queen?

Implied: And Rhaegar Targaryen will be King.

Maegi: Yes. But then there will be another (queen) to take away all you hold dear.

Cersei: I'll tell my brother, Jaime, to kill her if she tries!

Implied: Jaime will always be loyal to me and do what I tell him to do. He is my eternal protector (and, ironically, he later becomes her Kingsguard also, having murdered his previous king.).

Omissions: Prince Rhaegar will choose another queen over you. In so choosing, and in this queen's acceptance of his choice, she will take away everything you hold dear. Jaime will not fly to your rescue; he will abandon you (optional: and choose sides with Rhaegar Targaryen and his chosen queen, and their children, over you).

 

3. Cersei wants to have Rhaegar Targaryen's children.

 

Cersei: Will the King and I have children?

Implied: The King will be Rhaegar Targaryen and I will be his queen. What children will we have together?

Maegi: Yes. You will have three children. The King will have sixteen.

Omission: You will have no children together with Rhaegar Targaryen. You will not even share children with your King (Robert Baratheon).

Maegi Continued: Your children will have golden crowns. Your children will have golden shrouds. And when you've drowned in your tears, the Valonqar will strangle you to death.

Omission: Your children will have golden crowns (hair) because they are your brother, Jaime's, children too. They will have golden crowns (literal crowns) because they are princes and a princess, and someday Kings (and possibly a Queen). Your children will all die before you do (optional: one-by-one, becoming king and—maybe also—queen). After that, the Valonqar (translated: little brother) will strangle you to death, the little brother whose loyalty and blade you presume to forever command, even as you establish a life with another man.

 

4. Melara wants to marry Jaime. Cersei does not want this.

 

Melara: Will I marry Jaime?

Cersei, thinking: NO! He never thinks about you, he doesn't care about you, he doesn't even know you exist. He only loves me!

Maegi: No. You will be murdered, tonight. Your murderer is very close to you.

Omission: Cersei will murder you because you asked this question, because she is jealous and possessive of her brother, Jaime.

Implication: Not only does Cersei want Jaime to be her eternal protector and companion, she will connive ways to make it so, whether at his expense or anyone else's.

 

Thereby, Cersei identifies what she holds dear:

1.     Rhaegar Targaryen.

2.     Rheagar Targaryen's Queen's crown.

3.     Rhaegar Targaryen's children.

4.     Jaime Lannister.

5.     Cersei's own children (implied).

Thereby, Cersei helps the reader identify who has taken away everything she wants.

1.     Rhaegar Targaryen. He marries Princess Elia and gives her a crown. Later, he absconds with Lyanna Stark after giving her a crown. Princess Elia is so far a viable option.

2.     Rhaegar Targaryen's Queen's crown. The only person Rhaegar Targaryen gives a Queen's crown to is Lyanna Stark, thereby eliminating Princess Elia. Lyanna Stark is Rhaegar Targaryen's Queen of Love and Beauty. Lyanna Stark both takes this crown (at tourney), Rhaegar Targaryen himself (at the absconding), and Rhaegar Targaryen's child(ren) (giving birth at the Tower of Joy).

3.     Rhaegar Targaryen's children. Although Rhaegar has children with Princess Elia, she is never stated to have been given a "queen's" crown by him, but Lyanna Stark is. He later has a child with her. Rhaegar's children (Rhaenys, Aegon, Jon Snow) are later taken from him by Lannisters (Rhaenys and Aegon are murdered alongside Princess Elia; Jon Snow is denied to him altogether, becoming Ned Stark's bastard instead). At the absconding, then, Lyanna Stark "takes" any chance Cersei will ever have of mothering Rhaegar Targaryen's children (she accomplishes this by taking Rhaegar himself, which starts a series of events that culminate in the war that kills Rhaegar, ending Cersei's hypothetical future with him.).

4.     Although subtle, I think this part of the prophecy has already been put in motion as well, but it has not culminated yet (in Cersei's killing). Jaime is taken away from Cersei by Lyanna Stark via proxy of Ned Stark, who triggered another war (the Stark-Lannister aggression war, called the War of Five Kings), which has resulted in the death of one of Cersei's children already (Joffrey, to abscond with another Stark maid, ironically) and will result in the deaths of the other two (Tommen, Myrcella, likely in retribution for the murders of Elia's children, and as well to put "Elia's child," Aegon "Young Griff" on the throne instead, also ironically). Afterward, Kingsguard Jaime Lannister will strangle her to death (and it may be, in part, on behalf of Rhaegar's last remaining child: Jon Snow—also ironically, and thus reenacting the source of Cersei's curse in the series of events that cause her downfall).

 

So… when does Cersei become "queen" alongside Prince Rhaegar? At the Tourney of Lannisport, she was already the "queen" (the opening ceremony's queen of love and beauty) alongside Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. It was only at the leaving feast that the announcement of their betrothal was supposed to be made. Maegi Spicer was present at this tourney (she was there selling spices, not necessarily prophecies! That's why the tent was so pungent with so many spices.). Like many others, she probably knew exactly what Tywin Lannister was contriving to do (betroth Cersei and Rhaegar), and the narrative even gives us a method by which the "news" may have gotten out: 1. Genna Lannister, who told Cersei of her anticipated betrothal, and may have either told others or been overheard as she did so, and 2. Cersei herself, who seems to have at least bragged to Melara Heatherspoon and Jeyne Farman (the friend who fled), as their purpose in going to see Maegi Spicer was to hear "foretellings" of their spouses—and possibly to "prove" to the other girls that Cersei was to be betrothed to Rhaegar Targaryen, since Melara did not seem surprised by Cersei's questions at all.

 

The queens in the prophecy then, may be only the queens of love and beauty, Cersei and Lyanna (who is "younger" and "more beautiful"—at least to Rhaegar Targaryen!—when she becomes the queen at Harrenhal, which is also where Jaime becomes the Kingsguard who will slay two rulers: Aerys, Cersei.).

 

But does any of this really matter? Probably not. The prophecy is really about the impact that it has on Cersei's psyche, and it was purposefully crafted this way by Maegi Spicer. Why, though? Cersei was very nasty to her at this time, but she was ten years old, and is that really reason enough to be so vengeful? Maegi Spicer appears to hate Cersei the moment she wakes up, however (despite sending her away three times—unless this is only part of the dream sequence aspect of the foretelling, making it compatible with the Kingsguard who refuse to bend the knee three times at the Tower of Joy). Why would she?

 

The Red Wedding, perhaps? Is this prophecy given as vengeance on behalf of another queen who was not even born yet? Was Maegi Spicer crafting a prophecy to drive Cersei insane in revenge for a murder (Robb's squire, a Westerling—Maegi Spicer's grandson—died trying to free Grey Wind at the Red Wedding; Jeyne Westerling—her granddaughter—was not present, but appears to have genuinely loved Robb despite her family's—mother Spicer and uncle Spicer—betrayal of him) her family had yet to commit? This is where the cycle gets especially good, I think, and I enjoyed musing about it, personally, so I'll leave off there. Cheers!

 

Building off my previous comments about Redhands possibly having some deeper meaning or inherent symbolism pertaining to the valonqar:

+ There's Urron Red Hand who slaughtered everyone at the Kingsmoot to proclaim himself King of the Iron Isles (before being overthrown and the proper succession rites restored to order). So, a usurpation. Kingslaying and possibly kinslaying.

+ There's also Timmett son of TImmett of the Burned Men, who earned the title "the Red Hand" by putting out his eye with a red hot blade, in the custom by which the Burned Men sacrifice a body part to the flames to prove their worth and manhood. The more precious the part, the greater the man. This is reminiscent of a the blinding of the God's Eye to attain arcane and perhaps even profane knowledge and power. All other Burned Men--and even men from other clans--awe and fear (and avoid?) Timmett son of Timmett for his chosen self-sacrifice.

+ I wonder if Jon Snow might fit into this theme of the Red Hand, what with his burned right sword hand. Perhaps the bloody blade might be a continuation of this theme (with the bloody blade mattering as much as the hand that did the deed). If so, there's also Brandon of the Bloody Blade, Lightbringer the Red Sword of Heroes, Jaime's golden sword that he used to kill Aerys II, Starks' Ice three times (Gared's beheading and cleaning in black pool, Lady's killing, Ned's beheading on Baelor's Sept steps--hmm, that's water, wolf-in lieu of lion? I think lion simply means "beast" because it seems interchangeably used thematically- and father/"mother" figure-that is Mother of the Seven, protector of children- or "man" simply put)... I'm sure there are plenty others.

+ Red Hand is commonly part of "the red right hand of God," referential of divine wrath and retribution, but Martin appears to have--at least somewhat--twisted or inverted the symbol, so that it is the red right hand of man that is thematic.

Put simply, we get a blinding of the god's eye for divine knowledge and power, a usurpation (kingslaying/kinslaying), a bloody blade (used in the blood betrayal, most like), fire and blood....

It would be very funny if part of the valonqar mythos inherently means "kingslayer" (and that would point to Jaime again, I suppose; and I could see Maegi Spicer falling back on the word valonqar, which would be so much richer in mythos from the east, in lieu of the word "kingslayer" which reads a bit flatter. It would give meaning and purpose to the sudden use of the High Valyrian word).