US Elections - There is 'Ahead in the Polls' behind you

[A Horse Named Stranger]

It's been a while since I read something from good old Emile. But iirc wasn't anomy a state that occurs in times of changing social/economic circumstances. E.g. when one segment of the society suddenly finds itself on a different social level, and is uncertain what to do/how to act. Vulgo the disappearence of social norms, or in Durkheim terminology anomy [note it's not just the way down, it's also the way up, when an "upstart" (for lack of a better word) does not know what to do with his new riches]. That state of anomy lasts for as long as new rules (or social) norms are in place.

A true Marxist would probably argue that real class consciousness protects you from a state of anomy. 

The employment patterns is actually one of the weak points in Durkheim's whole reasoning, because there he is pretty circular. Durkheim wrote something like the new ways of production, have lead to new social norms which were the reasons for said new ways of production (at least the way he describes). The new ways of production Durkheim describes was the differentiation of labor (in case anybody was wondering). Durkheim's starting point was that very early village model in which the entire village worked on a boat/house/whatever through every step of the production, that was replaced with a more vertical differentiation of labour, with lumberjacks, carpenters, boatbuilders etc. Thus the image as society as a social body with ever bodypart depending on the other. The miller depending on the farmer being the classic example.

I think a Habermas argumentation would look somewhat different to Durkheim. The term anomy for instance is something that is not really something a Habermas scholar would usually use I think.

[BloodRider]

4 hours ago, TerraPrime said:

It's probably fair to assume that most participants here are middle class of one sort or another. But not all. Some are in the higher economic brackets and some are in the lower ones.

How does your class matter, if you acknowledge that wage stagnation is an issue?

[TerraPrime]

9 minutes ago, BloodRider said:

How does your class matter, if you acknowledge that wage stagnation is an issue?

I was responding to a comment which seemed to have assumed that we're all middle classes here in this forum.

That said, our class status matters in how we respond to it.

For instance, the Libertarian's solution to wage stagnation is to deregulate market policies and free up the owner class to do more of their own will, and it's no coincidence that Libertarians tend to have far fewer economically disadvantaged members.

It also matters in the fine-graining of the issue. As an example, I have colleagues who work for the university who agree that there's an increasing wage gap issue, but who also oppose increasing minimum wage. So they can see that their own wages have remained stagnant in comparison to the high-level administrators' wage, but they do not see the same problem happening to hourly-wage workers. Some of them will say things like "if we pay $15/hr to fast food, why should I have even bothered to get a Master's degree to earn only $32k/yr as in instructor?"

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Just now, TerraPrime said:

I was responding to a comment which seemed to have assumed that we're all middle classes here in this forum.

 

Well, actually you responded to a somewhat humorous (at least that was the intention) response to a post that called out postmodern bourgeoisie liberalism. Which I assume was made with some degree of self-awareness and humour. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

This is rather troubling, if it's in fact true:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/donald-trump-concede-succession-227252

Quote

That includes his insistence that the only way he loses is in a “rigged” election. According to two long-time Trump associates, the notion of a fixed election isn’t just viewed as smart politics inside Trump Tower; it’s something the GOP nominee believes.

 

[Jo498]

3 hours ago, Shryke said:

As I've pointed out before, views about how good things are going and going to be actually follow racial lines to a good degree. White people think stuff is going to hell alot more then non-whites. The sense that things are going to hell is imo not really about the economy much at all.

I simply don't know but is there another first world country where whole cities or regions have gone to hell in the way e.g. Detroit has? And this without a violent regime change (or similar disruptions) like e.g in the former Soviet Union. Just within the normal process of capitalist "creative destruction". I find such stuff far more impressive (also the tent cities in 2009) than some numbers about stagnating standard of living for the middle or lower middle class. Because one can debate endlessly about such numbers and people will claim that despite lower/stagnating wages and incomes people afford fun gadgets that didn't even exist in 1980.

[TerraPrime]

Back to election news....

 

As it turns out, one of the field offices (Denver west) in Colorado is run mostly by a 12-year old.

No I am not joking.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/donald-trump-colorado-campaign-office-run-12-year-old-article-1.2761038

 

Weston Imer, a 12-year-old, is in charge of the GOP candidate’s offices in Jefferson County, according to KDVR.

Trump opened a campaign office in the area west of Denver last week, and the preteen is responsible for bringing out voters in the swing state.

God bless America.

[Dr. Pepper]

Meh, I have to say that I don't find anything particularly wrong with this in theory.  Civil involvement is an important part of a child's education.  There's not enough as it is and this child working with his parent is probably learning more than most kids.  

The problem here is that he's being taught through the lens of a Trump supporter, so there are some serious fails in lessons on ethics and morality.

Also, appears to be a majorly understaffed and important campaign office, so Trump campaign fail.

[sologdin]

27 minutes ago, TerraPrime said:

Back to election news....

As it turns out, one of the field offices (Denver west) in Colorado is run mostly by a 12-year old.

No I am not joking

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/donald-trump-colorado-campaign-office-run-12-year-old-article-1.2761038

God bless America.

it's a fucking postmodern novel come to life, but reversing the old marxist quip, first time as farce, second time as tragedy?

[Mudguard]

30 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is rather troubling, if it's in fact true:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/donald-trump-concede-succession-227252

 

To me, this is just Trump laying out an excuse in case he loses the election.  If he goes on to lose the election, then he claims that he didn't really lose, that he should have won but the election was rigged.  That he keeps repeating this makes it clear that he really understands that there's a good chance he's going to lose, so he's trying to protect his brand.  Trump knows his campaign is in deep shit right now, hence the shakeup with the top leadership of his campaign.   

I don't have any concerns over this affecting the legitimacy of our elections, if all we have are Trumps assertions in the absence of any evidence.

[Dr. Pepper]

1 minute ago, Mudguard said:

To me, this is just Trump laying out an excuse in case he loses the election.  If he goes on to lose the election, then he claims that he didn't really lose, that he should have won but the election was rigged.  That he keeps repeating this makes it clear that he really understands that there's a good chance he's going to lose, so he's trying to protect his brand.  Trump knows his campaign is in deep shit right now, hence the shakeup with the top leadership of his campaign.   

I don't have any concerns over this affecting the legitimacy of our elections, if all we have are Trumps assertions in the absence of any evidence.

Though, I'm annoyed no one has aggressively questioned Trump over the implications of this statement if he wins.  If the election is rigged, as he says, then any result in his favor should be similarly rigged.  Actually even more so considering there will be months of polling that places him in the loserest loser position.  

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Just now, Dr. Pepper said:

Though, I'm annoyed no one has aggressively questioned Trump over the implications of this statement if he wins.  If the election is rigged, as he says, then any result in his favor should be similarly rigged.  Actually even more so considering there will be months of polling that places him in the loserest loser position.  

You have a lack of understanding about the conservative narrative of Democratic election-rigging. The idea is that Democrats, especially scary, urban dark Democrats, will vote "early and often" - which is to say, they will commit vote fraud by voting multiple times, by voting on behalf of people who have died, and by voting on behalf of their dogs and cats who have been accidentally sent voter registration forms. In effect, the claim is that Democratic urban centers stuff the ballot box in favor of their candidate. In this story, Democratic candidates therefore have an advantage, but obviously not an insurmountable one, as very popular Republican candidates can mobilize enough people to cast enough votes to outweigh the fraud.

There's a kernel of truth to this narrative, in that it has its origin in the urban, Democratic machine politics of the past, in which voter fraud was understood to be a thing. But the days of the Democratic machine being able to exert this level of control over the ballot box is over. 

 

[Dr. Pepper]

11 minutes ago, NestorMakhnosLovechild said:

You have a lack of understanding about the conservative narrative of Democratic election-rigging. The idea is that Democrats, especially scary, urban dark Democrats, will vote "early and often" - which is to say, they will commit vote fraud by voting multiple times, by voting on behalf of people who have died, and by voting on behalf of their dogs and cats who have been accidentally sent voter registration forms. In effect, the claim is that Democratic urban centers stuff the ballot box in favor of their candidate. In this story, Democratic candidates therefore have an advantage, but obviously not an insurmountable one, as very popular Republican candidates can mobilize enough people to cast enough votes to outweigh the fraud.

There's a kernel of truth to this narrative, in that it has its origin in the urban, Democratic machine politics of the past, in which voter fraud was understood to be a thing. But the days of the Democratic machine being able to exert this level of control over the ballot box is over. 

 

Good job, Nestor!  You look like you've been doing your homework.  

[TerraPrime]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Meh, I have to say that I don't find anything particularly wrong with this in theory.  Civil involvement is an important part of a child's education.  There's not enough as it is and this child working with his parent is probably learning more than most kids. 

Civic engagement is if the kid is helping with the organizing efforts and going out door to door to do the GOTV activities.

This is not the same thing. Running a campaign office requires coordinating skills, communicating skills, and carries responsibilities that are beyond what a 12 year-old should be given. It's like saying having a 12 year-old run the local food pantry is a good idea because it's civic engagement.

[Swordfish]

On 8/19/2016 at 4:46 PM, Swordfish said:

blarg...  Quote feature....

Quote

Civic engagement is if the kid is helping with the organizing efforts and going out door to door to do the GOTV activities.

This is not the same thing. Running a campaign office requires coordinating skills, communicating skills, and carries responsibilities that are beyond what a 12 year-old should be given. It's like saying having a 12 year-old run the local food pantry is a good idea because it's civic engagement.

I'm at a complete loss as to why I should care about this at all, much less be outraged by it.

 

 

[Dr. Pepper]

34 minutes ago, TerraPrime said:

Civic engagement is if the kid is helping with the organizing efforts and going out door to door to do the GOTV activities.

This is not the same thing. Running a campaign office requires coordinating skills, communicating skills, and carries responsibilities that are beyond what a 12 year-old should be given. It's like saying having a 12 year-old run the local food pantry is a good idea because it's civic engagement.

But he's not actually running the campaign office?  Like, he's not the one making all of the important decisions.  No one is dropping him off at the office and giving him free reign.  His parent is still there guiding him and instructing him. 

I don't see anything wrong with a 12-year-old doing the same thing with a local food pantry either.  In fact, I can list of several programs I know of personally that have young people heavily involved doing things like communicating and coordinating.  These are skills kids need to learn.

I just don't see anything really wrong with this at all (aside from the fact that this office is obviously understaffed).  He's 12, not 6.  And even though his manner of speech suggests he's practicing to become Gen Z's Ted Cruz, he speaking skills indicate he's mature enough to handle this type of engagement and these responsibilities for his summer break.  Under close supervision, of course.  

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, Jo498 said:

I simply don't know but is there another first world country where whole cities or regions have gone to hell in the way e.g. Detroit has? And this without a violent regime change (or similar disruptions) like e.g in the former Soviet Union. Just within the normal process of capitalist "creative destruction". I find such stuff far more impressive (also the tent cities in 2009) than some numbers about stagnating standard of living for the middle or lower middle class. Because one can debate endlessly about such numbers and people will claim that despite lower/stagnating wages and incomes people afford fun gadgets that didn't even exist in 1980.

Trump offers nothing to reverse these issues, tho.  "What do you got to lose?" is not any type of plan of reform or problem solving.  But that's OK, it's all about him any way "I'll have 95% of the black vote in four years!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!

um, sorry Trump, not a winning argument.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Meh, I have to say that I don't find anything particularly wrong with this in theory.  Civil involvement is an important part of a child's education.  There's not enough as it is and this child working with his parent is probably learning more than most kids.  

The problem here is that he's being taught through the lens of a Trump supporter, so there are some serious fails in lessons on ethics and morality.

Also, appears to be a majorly understaffed and important campaign office, so Trump campaign fail.

Despite his angelic face, the middle schooler has also been accused of involvement in "soft thug tactics" around the Trump campaign, with the Guardian reporting that Colorado Republicans against Trump complained about Imer making threatening phone calls telling them to line up behind the nominee.

Oh good grief, if true, that's ugly.

[Dr. Pepper]

2 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Despite his angelic face, the middle schooler has also been accused of involvement in "soft thug tactics" around the Trump campaign, with the Guardian reporting that Colorado Republicans against Trump complained about Imer making threatening phone calls telling them to line up behind the nominee.

Oh good grief, if true, that's ugly.

Yeah.  The candidate his parents are supporting and the tactics they are teaching are obviously problematic.  

[Mudguard]

2 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Though, I'm annoyed no one has aggressively questioned Trump over the implications of this statement if he wins.  If the election is rigged, as he says, then any result in his favor should be similarly rigged.  Actually even more so considering there will be months of polling that places him in the loserest loser position.  

If he wins, he'll claim that he won despite the Democrats trying to rig the election.