US Elections - There is 'Ahead in the Polls' behind you

[Shryke]

6 hours ago, Jo498 said:

I simply don't know but is there another first world country where whole cities or regions have gone to hell in the way e.g. Detroit has? And this without a violent regime change (or similar disruptions) like e.g in the former Soviet Union. Just within the normal process of capitalist "creative destruction". I find such stuff far more impressive (also the tent cities in 2009) than some numbers about stagnating standard of living for the middle or lower middle class. Because one can debate endlessly about such numbers and people will claim that despite lower/stagnating wages and incomes people afford fun gadgets that didn't even exist in 1980.

Detroit is one city. These perceptions are far more widespread. And afaik not even concentrated in places like Detroit. There's plenty of places around the world that have been hit hard by shifting economic conditions. Detroit isn't really a story of the shifting economy anyway, so much as it's about horrible management, bad taxation and racial politics as much as it is anything.

The point though was that, as far as what I remember reading, people of similar economic class and situation will have differing views on how good the future is going to be based on their race. There's racial politics all up in this perception of the worsening state of the US and that should set some alarm bells off in your head about what might really be going on here.

As a sort of connected idea to this WaPo (I believe it was them) had a recent article on what Trump support looked like and what it seemed largely clustered around was not people who were doing worse economically, but people who perceived their children would do worse economically.

[Shryke]

5 hours ago, NestorMakhnosLovechild said:

You have a lack of understanding about the conservative narrative of Democratic election-rigging. The idea is that Democrats, especially scary, urban dark Democrats, will vote "early and often" - which is to say, they will commit vote fraud by voting multiple times, by voting on behalf of people who have died, and by voting on behalf of their dogs and cats who have been accidentally sent voter registration forms. In effect, the claim is that Democratic urban centers stuff the ballot box in favor of their candidate. In this story, Democratic candidates therefore have an advantage, but obviously not an insurmountable one, as very popular Republican candidates can mobilize enough people to cast enough votes to outweigh the fraud.

There's a kernel of truth to this narrative, in that it has its origin in the urban, Democratic machine politics of the past, in which voter fraud was understood to be a thing. But the days of the Democratic machine being able to exert this level of control over the ballot box is over. 

 

Yeah, the whole "rigged election" conspiracy is based firmly in the belief in the "silent majority" whereby my views are obviously the popular ones shared by the majority of americans. I mean, everyone I know agrees with me! So how could we possibly lose? Obviously, those blacks are voting multiple times or something.

[Equilibrium]

What a guilt and shame driven elections. 

All of us will agree that Republicans are wrong to fear Hillary that much, she may be corrupt, dishonest and amoral, so is most of the bipartisan crew, but she most definitely isn't progressive. Obama for all their panic was fairly moderate and he was freshman senator elected on progressive issues and change, Hillary will be even more moderate. And that is on social issues, she is downright conservative on nearly everything else. So Repubs thinking that she will transform US into mix of Sweden and USSR are wrong.

But controversially so are Democrats. Maybe even more if that is possible. There is nothing that points that Trump will be good president, but his presidency won't be extinction level event, he won't do anything that bad. Dems say he will start nuclear war with Russian and tomorrow that he is in league with Putin, take a pick, Russia will grow in power, but they can't became 50s USSR even if America let them, and Putin is smart enough not to invade Poland with tanks, he will do that with economic and political manipulations. Trump won't be absolutist monarch, he will be checked on each step even if he really plans to implement those crazy schemes of his. Immigration system is broken anyway, favoring dishonest business owners and private prison complexes that make money of work and misery of illegals, if Trump makes those fuckers suffer he may end up doing immigrants a favor as unskilled Mexican labor is necessary either way, so any major disruption can lead to better mechanism of legal immigration. But Trump probably doesn't think about any of that, nor is he serious, so lets not give his positions more thought than he has, if he bothers to do something at all it would be pretty normal political move, he may ruffle some feathers but he is likely to cause a major internal or external problem as Obama is to establish Sharia police to take all the guns. Normalization of Trump politics is a good thing, as it is far better for his base voters to chant Trump than to bomb Oklahoma, they can't win all the power, just as progressives can't win all the power, there aren't that many of them. 

Guilting and shaming someone not to vote for someone is wrong, but guilting and shaming into VOTING for someone is disgusting and dangerous.

Dare to say you are voting Stein or Johnson or someone else and you are attacked from both sides that your vote is likely to doom the country. We saw that in previous elections but somewhat less and what is different from 2012/Obama/Romney, this year Democrats are worse then Republicans and it is unnecessary and regretful.

[The Marquis de Leech]

False equivalency.

People who know what they are talking about (in economics, military, foreign affairs) have universally labelled Trump's ideas as dangerous. Even if you run with the idea that Trump is simply saying stuff for rhetorical effect, the mere fact that a guy who literally says whatever pops into his head at a given moment, without any form of detailed consideration, could conceivably become US President is a nightmarish scenario. It is no accident that the Hillary campaign can pretty much dig up Lyndon Johnson's 1964 ads and reuse them at her leisure.

As for Hillary herself, she is to the Left of where she was in 2008, and if anything is running slightly to the Left of Obama.

[Equilibrium]

40 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

False equivalency.

People who know what they are talking about (in economics, military, foreign affairs) have universally labelled Trump's ideas as dangerous. Even if you run with the idea that Trump is simply saying stuff for rhetorical effect, the mere fact that a guy who literally says whatever pops into his head at a given moment, without any form of detailed consideration, could conceivably become US President is a nightmarish scenario. It is no accident that the Hillary campaign can pretty much dig up Lyndon Johnson's 1964 ads and reuse them at her leisure.

As for Hillary herself, she is to the Left of where she was in 2008, and if anything is running slightly to the Left of Obama.

Never equivalented shit and you know it, just don't want to acknowledge it, since it's easier just to repeat same tired phrase you use on Republicans. I never said Trump was not worse then Clinton, just saying he is not THAT worse to justify fucking mass hysteria and Dems succumbing to 2008 Repub level of fear and hate.

Hillary Left, can't hear you from all the fracking to feed the Keystone XL, yeah, keep telling that to yourself, one Swedenisation coming right up, she says what she think people want to hear, how progressive did Obama sound, Hillary won't even try to fulfill any of that. She is at best common sense moderate Democrat on social issues and neocon on everything else

I don't like the subtext of that second sentence as it implies that I don't know what I am talking about, and I do, thank you very much. Also I can find you fucking truck load of experts from other side of the aisle that label Trump's ideas as awesome, so experts are not to be believed especailly when they aim to predict something as they have same track record as neighbourhood fortune tellers, read Taleb he explained it quite nicely,

[mormont]

I'm getting that you don't like Clinton. The rest is chaff.

[Equilibrium]

7 minutes ago, mormont said:

I'm getting that you don't like Clinton. The rest is chaff.

You aren't getting it right. I have nothing against Clinton, maybe I would even vote for her.

It is ALL about disgusting and over the top fear mongering of Dems and their shaming and guilting of third party voters that annoys me and I thought to share. If Hillary wins it won't be because of the scare campaign and if she loses it won't be because there wasn't enough fear mongering. Dems are becoming worse in that regard then Repubs, and while it may be impressive feat I don't see how it will help and it can hurt very, very much.

[Jace, Extat]

Yes. Make your statements in fractured and incoherent rants and you'll be unbeatable! I see it now! This one has shown me the dirty ways of those good for nothing fear mongering democrats!!!

I mean, I thought you were making an assanine comparison to charged fear mongering by 2016 Democrats to open racism by Republicans in '08, but you say you didn't so it's all OK now.

[ummester]

21 hours ago, TerraPrime said:

The "this shit is so hopelessly bad so let's burn it to the ground" crowd never has any meaningful way to guarantee that what comes out of the ashes is going to be significantly better so that the pain is worth it.

It depends - if you don't think a given system is capable of ever adjusting towards a positive trajectory, than the only solution is to discard it.

[Equilibrium]

38 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Yes. Make your statements in fractured and incoherent rants and you'll be unbeatable! I see it now! This one has shown me the dirty ways of those good for nothing fear mongering democrats!!!

I mean, I thought you were making an assanine comparison to charged fear mongering by 2016 Democrats to open racism by Republicans in '08, but you say you didn't so it's all OK now.

Good for nothing Democrats? When did said or even implied that? 

What do you think, that I am Republican? There are no Republicans here, I am fairly certain of that.

Yes, all things can be compared, Dems are really trying to get to the Republican level. Was there open or implied racism 2008, yes, there was. But you can't say only criticism of Obama was his blackness, he is painted as stranger and socialist, everything he said was dissected, his personal life was used and attacks were fabricated, it was all bad, he was presented as imminent threat, anti-American and bringer of the end of America we know. Now Trump is presented in even worse terms, as a psychopath and fascist, imminent threat, anti-American and bringer of the end of America we know, while ignoring the reality of presidential position and situation in general.

But Trump aside, he is irrelevant anyway, atmoshpere of fear, shame and guilt is bad, no matter who creates it and against who. People are attacked for saying they will vote Green, even the people who have voted Green for years, fuck you voter and your convictions and voter history, you will vote Dem or you will have doomed us all. How is that good, how is that justified with saying Repubs are worse or some of them are racist, so Democrats have to sling shit, lie and resort to scare tactics they have long decried.

Think what you will, but first think, and try to read what I wrote not what you want for me to have wrote, I don't care some people can't be reasoned with (and I don't mean Democrats or Clinton supporters)

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

47 minutes ago, Equilibrium said:

Yes, all things can be compared, Dems are really trying to get to the Republican level. Was there open or implied racism 2008, yes, there was. But you can't say only criticism of Obama was his blackness, he is painted as stranger and socialist, everything he said was dissected, his personal life was used and attacks were fabricated, it was all bad, he was presented as imminent threat, anti-American and bringer of the end of America we know. Now Trump is presented in even worse terms, as a psychopath and fascist, imminent threat, anti-American and bringer of the end of America we know, while ignoring the reality of presidential position and situation in general.

But Trump aside, he is irrelevant anyway, atmoshpere of fear, shame and guilt is bad, no matter who creates it and against who. People are attacked for saying they will vote Green, even the people who have voted Green for years, fuck you voter and your convictions and voter history, you will vote Dem or you will have doomed us all. How is that good, how is that justified with saying Repubs are worse or some of them are racist, so Democrats have to sling shit, lie and resort to scare tactics they have long decried.

Think what you will, but first think, and try to read what I wrote not what you want for me to have wrote, I don't care some people can't be reasoned with (and I don't mean Democrats or Clinton supporters)

There are huge, meaningful, qualitative differences between the criticism of Obama from the right and the criticism of Trump from the left. As just the most obvious example, the "othering" of Obama was a largely counterfactual narrative, in that it either assumed facts that were simply not in evidence (Obama wants to institute "death panels," or use FEMA to declare a state of emergency to steal all your guns, or that he hates America and is deliberately trying to "weaken" it) or that were contrary to the actual evidence available (Obama is a Muslim, he was born in Kenya and has convinced the state of Hawaii to engage in a decades-long cover-up of the actual circumstances of his birth, he's Constitutionally ineligible to be the President of the US). 

In contrast, the most meaningful and scathing criticisms of Trump are just pointing to the things he's actually said he would actually do and claiming, correctly, that they're some combination of unconstitutional, impossible, or just awful. People aren't making up the claim that Trump has advocated engaging in war crimes by deliberately targeting civilians for death. This is something he actually said. People aren't making up the claim that Trump has advocated setting up a massive "deportation force" to forcibly relocate over ten million people out of the country. He actually did this. People aren't making up that Trump has deliberately incited violence at his rallies by encouraging his supporters to punch protesters in the face and offering to pay their legal fees. This is shit he's actually said.

The idea that holding people accountable for the things they say and the position they advocate is somehow "unfair" and a failure to understand "the reality of presidential position and situation in general" is weaselly, mealy-mouthed bullshit. Politicians SHOULD be held accountable for the things they say and they should be held accountable for those things even if they aren't actually capable of putting them into action. If your defense of a hypothetical Trump presidency is that while he might have ordered the US military to engage in war crimes, you think it's unlikely that that US military would actually carry them out (a proposition that I, and many others, are significantly less confident about than you), then you still have to deal with the fact that the Commander in Chief of the largest and most powerful military on the planet is issuing military orders that amount to war crimes. That's a Very Bad Thing independent of whether or not top military brass actually engages in gross, and possibly criminal, insubordination to defy it. 

When given an opportunity to vote for or against someone who advocates terrible things, even if their intention is "just" to whip up xenophobic hysteria and not actually do those terrible things (again, a questionable proposition at best), it's our moral obligation to opposite it and call those actions out for what they are. 

[The Anti-Targ]

So is Trump actually trying to sabotage his campaign and lose without becoming a "loser", or not? I've heard a few people suggest that's what's in Trump's mind because he never wanted to and doesn't want to have to actually do the job.

[aceluby]

1 hour ago, ummester said:

It depends - if you don't think a given system is capable of ever adjusting towards a positive trajectory, than the only solution is to discard it.

Then look at the historical precedence.  The 'system' hasn't changed, so the 'system' is obviously not the issue.

Your argument also reeks of GOP 'repeal and replace'.  Get rid of it all and replace it with..... something I like more that is basically the same thing.

[Equilibrium]

2 minutes ago, NestorMakhnosLovechild said:

snip.

Obama got it worse, OK

War crimes, like US doesn't engage in war crimes right now, Guantanamo is one huge war crime that everyone lets US slide since US is the big boy. Then whole US concept of collateral damage in bombings, drone strikes etc. I read about war crimes in those prisons in Afghanistan and Iraq, and if you think there aren't more abominable things that are classified you are wrong. US already has a border walls, so do many other countries, it's not that useful and neither is banning of Muslims as terrorist can change his name deck himself in crosses and pass, but those are more stupid then fascistic ideas, and with some refinement maybe they can produce some results. But I don't want to defend Trump's policy, and attacking Trump's policy is fine when he says stupid stuff.

I am talking about vicious, offensive ad hominem attacks launched on Trump, calling him mentally sick or deficient, psychopath, dictator, Nazi. Allegations about his corruption, about his connections with criminals, Russians and who not. They labeled him rapist and pedophile, without the shred of evidence, busted on snopes.com. They attack and insult his advisors, slander them, insult Trump's family. Are those Democrats you want, is that how social justice party should win the elections, which they have been doing from day one, so it's not all just desperate act, Clinton is clear favorite there is no need for all this, yet it is integral part of the discourse.

Everyone who has any qualms about Clinton is labeled stupid, naive or malicious, shut up and vote Clinton or it's Armageddon. I have no horse in the race, I don't hate Hillary, I am appealed that better and progressive American party chooses to win elections not by excellent platform but by saying that the opponent is pedophile. 

Hillary isn't corrupt, no she is not says Dems, if she was court would pronounce her guilty, but Trump though he is pedophile, no matter that court didn't pronounce him guilty, and ignoring the fact that it's easier for high government official to skirt corruption charges then it is for a media personality to avoid pedophilia conviction. That is Repub logic there, and that is how they think and if you think it's true and polite because it's on Huff or WaPo and not on Fox you are wrong, same Repubs you hate think the exact opposite. It's not just dirty tricks some Dems use, it is also highest level of hypocrisy.

 

[Equilibrium]

30 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

So is Trump actually trying to sabotage his campaign and lose without becoming a "loser", or not? I've heard a few people suggest that's what's in Trump's mind because he never wanted to and doesn't want to have to actually do the job.

No that would be stupid beyond all measure, maybe it is some kind of irrational comfort thought for some Repubs. He would still lose and he likes winning, so why not just quit sabotage and win.

He maybe really doesn't want to be a president, but he can always resign or even decline the function after elections, it's easy as that and much saner move, besides that way he can take it for two months long test spin and resign then if he finds it tedious.

 

[aceluby]

14 minutes ago, Equilibrium said:

Obama got it worse, OK

War crimes, like US doesn't engage in war crimes right now, Guantanamo is one huge war crime that everyone lets US slide since US is the big boy. Then whole US concept of collateral damage in bombings, drone strikes etc. I read about war crimes in those prisons in Afghanistan and Iraq, and if you think there aren't more abominable things that are classified you are wrong. US already has a border walls, so do many other countries, it's not that useful and neither is banning of Muslims as terrorist can change his name deck himself in crosses and pass, but those are more stupid then fascistic ideas, and with some refinement maybe they can produce some results. But I don't want to defend Trump's policy, and attacking Trump's policy is fine when he says stupid stuff.

I am talking about vicious, offensive ad hominem attacks launched on Trump, calling him mentally sick or deficient, psychopath, dictator, Nazi. Allegations about his corruption, about his connections with criminals, Russians and who not. They labeled him rapist and pedophile, without the shred of evidence, busted on snopes.com. They attack and insult his advisors, slander them, insult Trump's family. Are those Democrats you want, is that how social justice party should win the elections, which they have been doing from day one, so it's not all just desperate act, Clinton is clear favorite there is no need for all this, yet it is integral part of the discourse.

Everyone who has any qualms about Clinton is labeled stupid, naive or malicious, shut up and vote Clinton or it's Armageddon. I have no horse in the race, I don't hate Hillary, I am appealed that better and progressive American party chooses to win elections not by excellent platform but by saying that the opponent is pedophile. 

Hillary isn't corrupt, no she is not says Dems, if she was court would pronounce her guilty, but Trump though he is pedophile, no matter that court didn't pronounce him guilty, and ignoring the fact that it's easier for high government official to skirt corruption charges then it is for a media personality to avoid pedophilia conviction. That is Repub logic there, and that is how they think and if you think it's true and polite because it's on Huff or WaPo and not on Fox you are wrong, same Repubs you hate think the exact opposite. It's not just dirty tricks some Dems use, it is also highest level of hypocrisy.

 

4 paragraphs of strawman arguments.  Maybe pick one and actually show who these Democrats are and the arguments they are actually making?  As is, this post is pretty much meaningless garbage.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

15 hours ago, Mudguard said:

To me, this is just Trump laying out an excuse in case he loses the election.  If he goes on to lose the election, then he claims that he didn't really lose, that he should have won but the election was rigged.  That he keeps repeating this makes it clear that he really understands that there's a good chance he's going to lose, so he's trying to protect his brand.  Trump knows his campaign is in deep shit right now, hence the shakeup with the top leadership of his campaign.   

I don't have any concerns over this affecting the legitimacy of our elections, if all we have are Trumps assertions in the absence of any evidence.

He could very well be making an excuse in advance of losing the election, but the article I linked went a step further by saying that a few people close to Trump think he actually believes the election is rigged. And I believe that if the latter is true, it's more likely that Trump will not given a traditional concession speech which could prove to be extremely problematic if not flat out dangerous. He's already damaging the legitimacy of our electoral process and god knows what will happen if he denies Clinton a peaceful transition of power. 

[ummester]

1 hour ago, aceluby said:

Then look at the historical precedence.  The 'system' hasn't changed, so the 'system' is obviously not the issue.

Your argument also reeks of GOP 'repeal and replace'.  Get rid of it all and replace it with..... something I like more that is basically the same thing.

I care not for your parties and their strange definitions like GOP

The system is the issue - the system of individualism, consumerism and extreme capitalism that the US has been nurturing for at least 30 if not more years. From a minimum of the 80s, when financial regulation was removed. That system has to collapse, just like in did in the 30s, so that regulation (strong regulation) can be put back in place, for the betterment of the whole planet.

And this is why I prefer Trump - because he is stupid enough to make this happen quickly, rather than kick the can for another 16 to 20 years.

[Equilibrium]

That is what I get for trying to get people to take on another perspective, one of the outsider, who isn't part of partisan politics and who doesn't have anything to gain. Few well intentioned commentaries that in no what dismiss what Trump and Reps said and done.

My comments get dismissed, misinterpreted, people imagine some subtext of theirs to then attack instead of reading closely.

Just for the end all I have said is that I don't like the trend of Democratic party, media and voters becoming like Republican ones, and if you like to continue to pretend it is not so or think it is justified, I can assure you Republicans are thinking the same and maybe one remotely civil party in US was too much.

I don't care about Green voter nearly enough to continue to defend their right not to be shamed and guilted into voting for someone else.

I am stranger after all and I should not meddle in US politics, I can only continue to watch the circus of two camps flinging shit at each other. Bad thing is one of those camps was year ago all about progressive issues and making world a better place and now is all about opponent being pedophile, fascist and madman . Good thing is that show is still funny and if my belly bursts from laughing I have free universal health care. Over and out.

[aceluby]

3 minutes ago, Equilibrium said:

That is what I get for trying to get people to take on another perspective, one of the outsider, who isn't part of partisan politics and who doesn't have anything to gain. Few well intentioned commentaries that in no what dismiss what Trump and Reps said and done.

My comments get dismissed, misinterpreted, people imagine some subtext of theirs to then attack instead of reading closely.

Just for the end all I have said is that I don't like the trend of Democratic party, media and voters becoming like Republican ones, and if you like to continue to pretend it is not so or think it is justified, I can assure you Republicans are thinking the same and maybe one remotely civil party in US was too much.

I don't care about Green voter nearly enough to continue to defend their right not to be shamed and guilted into voting for someone else.

I am stranger after all and I should not meddle in US politics, I can only continue to watch the circus of two camps flinging shit at each other. Bad thing is one of those camps was year ago all about progressive issues and making world a better place and now is all about opponent being pedophile, fascist and madman . Good thing is that show is still funny and if my belly bursts from laughing I have free universal health care. Over and out.

Nobody attacked you.  You made frankly terrible strawman arguments, others pointed this out to you and countered with actual arguments, and you countered with even more strawman arguments.

If you want to actually discuss what actual Democrats are actually saying and doing, people here will be more than happy to engage with you.