mormont Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, Fez said: It depends on what exactly he says and what other Republican officials say in response. The problem with that is, the success of the Trump campaign has been founded on painting those very people as the establishment and untrustworthy and so on. (In Trump world, 'the establishment' is ipso facto anyone not actively supporting Trump). So what they say won't matter to Trump supporters: in fact it might fan the flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Trump Quintuples Rent on Trump Tower Campaign HQ-Once he Began Accepting Donor Contributions... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-campaign-rent_us_57bba424e4b03d51368a82b9?section=& Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alguien Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Meh. Nevermind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerenthaClone Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 1 hour ago, ummester said: A strange thing has happened with the group that calls itself the 'progressive left' in the US, they are now more authoritarian than many conservative groups - asserting this authority by way faux guilt creation. They attempt to discredit by accusation of some vast social injustice. It's quite sad to see a country as strong as the US was fall victim to such triviality. And they aren't even left Well, Bernie was - but the rest of them aren't - their just capitalists that pretend they care and try to make you feel bad if you don't agree. You are and always were entitled to believe whatever you chose and cannot be shamed otherwise, even though I do not agree with your take in the status of Western civilisation Please. "Oh no I'm being guilted and called racist for believing racist things!" is hardly equivalent to, you know, actual authoritarianism. And Sanders is nowhere near as "left" as you seem to want, given that he's a pretty standard socialist democrat. That is, his goal is largely to blunt the excesses of capitalism and round off its edges, not to reorganize society on socialist lines. 46 minutes ago, sologdin said: i can't tell if the proposal is a far right jeremiad contra finance capital or reckless ultraleft disregard for the lived lives of actually existing human persons. The latter, given their rather frequent calls for accelerationist crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 15 minutes ago, mormont said: The problem with that is, the success of the Trump campaign has been founded on painting those very people as the establishment and untrustworthy and so on. (In Trump world, 'the establishment' is ipso facto anyone not actively supporting Trump). So what they say won't matter to Trump supporters: in fact it might fan the flames. Two points: 1) Slightly over half of Republicans say in polls that they wish someone else was the GOP nominee, but Trump still has the support of 70%-80% of Republicans. So there are plenty of Trump voters who don't particularly like him, and therefore would not be likely to go to the streets in support of him. And unlike most other people, these are people who are in the same social circles as the true believers; that's going to be a moderating influence if Trump does try doing anything drastic after losing. 2) There are still plenty of Republican officials still popular with their base, especially within their own states/districts. Its true that the only reason they are still popular is because they haven't attacked Trump (Cruz is pretty unpopular now), but after the election Trump won't have nearly the luster he does now. Losing hurts peoples' perceptions of you, even if they believe the contest was rigged against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 1 hour ago, mormont said: No. Actually sabotaging his campaign would be simple. He just needs to take some view that will alienate his core support without really broadening his appeal to people already lost to him. For example, it's not hard to think of positions on gay marriage, abortion or guns that Trump could take that would piss off his existing supporters but not please anyone else either. Trump wants to win. He'd never have started this if he didn't. Does he want to do the work? That's a different question. To be fair, what he's doing as of yesterday is completely reversing course on immigration and supporting Obama's immigration plans but, in his own words, 'with more energy'. This is likely going to piss a whole lot of his supporters off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 57 minutes ago, Fez said: It depends on what exactly he says and what other Republican officials say in response. I know they haven't done anything all cycle, but if its now post-election and Trump is now a 'known loser,' I think they'd be more inclined to push back against Trump. And as for Trump, while I strongly believe he won't properly concede, I think there's no telling what he will actually say. He could easily do his version of Sanders post-California, and only speak in terms of the need to continue to push for important issues without referencing the election at all. I really don't see how other Republicans' responses would mitigate the damage he could do. Hypothetically, say he goes out there after he loses and says, "Crooked Hillary Clinton just stole the election and now she's going to make your families less safe by letting illegals flow over the boarders and take away your guns." I don't see what another Republican could say to blunt the effect that could have on a small segment of the population who really does believe those things and thinks they need to take some sort of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 5 hours ago, Kalbear said: To be fair, what he's doing as of yesterday is completely reversing course on immigration and supporting Obama's immigration plans but, in his own words, 'with more energy'. This is likely going to piss a whole lot of his supporters off. Nah. They'll just do what people like Altherion have been doing since the start and substitute whatever they want him to believe for what he says. The ones who don't want him to pivot will think he's lying and some of the ones that can't stand to support him but can't stand to let Clinton win will lie to themselves about how he's changed. That is, after all, half the point of this "pivot". The whole thing is a transparent attempt to give people too ashamed to support Trump a fig leaf and, even more then that, to try and reverse the media narrative by convincing them to run "Trump changes for the better!" stories to try and stem the bleeding. It's the same shit as his outreach to blacks. And both groups he's aiming these messages at are stupid enough to swallow it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: I really don't see how other Republicans' responses would mitigate the damage he could do. Hypothetically, say he goes out there after he loses and says, "Crooked Hillary Clinton just stole the election and now she's going to make your families less safe by letting illegals flow over the boarders and take away your guns." I don't see what another Republican could say to blunt the effect that could have on a small segment of the population who really does believe those things and thinks they need to take some sort of action. Agreed. It's dangerous rhetoric to throw around. The issue is not some sort of mass uprising, it's isolated dumbasses "taking their country back". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 5 hours ago, MerenthaClone said: Please. "Oh no I'm being guilted and called racist for believing racist things!" is hardly equivalent to, you know, actual authoritarianism. And Sanders is nowhere near as "left" as you seem to want, given that he's a pretty standard socialist democrat. That is, his goal is largely to blunt the excesses of capitalism and round off its edges, not to reorganize society on socialist lines. The latter, given their rather frequent calls for accelerationist crap. Sanders supports charter schools. That's pretty much the complete opposite of socialism. In fact the democratic party is about the only so-called center-left party in the western world that supports the charter school concept. John Oliver just did an interesting piece on charter schools. The best deliverer* of investigative journalism in the USA is a comedian. *Ref. John Oliver piece on journalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 5 hours ago, MerenthaClone said: Please. "Oh no I'm being guilted and called racist for believing racist things!" is hardly equivalent to, you know, actual authoritarianism. All fascism starts with victims and victimisation. 5 hours ago, MerenthaClone said: And Sanders is nowhere near as "left" as you seem to want, given that he's a pretty standard socialist democrat. That is, his goal is largely to blunt the excesses of capitalism and round off its edges, not to reorganize society on socialist lines. I never said he was as left as I want him to be - only that he was left and, in that way, at least is not lying about which side he is on. You haven't rebutted that at all, you have done exactly the same thing as the poster before you - just bitched about it. 5 hours ago, MerenthaClone said: The latter, given their rather frequent calls for accelerationist crap. If you take the human cost away, there is nothing crap about it. As we should be able to look outside the needs and desires of ourselves, so to should our species or societies be able to look outside it's needs and organising principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, ummester said: If you take the human cost away, there is nothing crap about it. As we should be able to look outside the needs and desires of ourselves, so to should our species or societies be able to look outside it's needs and organising principles. How do you propose to take the human cost away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: How do you propose to take the human cost away? You cant - but you can think outside of it. People go to climate change summits and argue outside of the planetary cost, or cost to animals on this planet. Given humans are just animals, why is the concept do different? We just have to get over ourselves, or see ourselves as less, or fundamentally wrong. We just have to approach the problem from a less human-centric and therefore more honest position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impmk2 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 15 minutes ago, ummester said: You cant - but you can think outside of it. People go to climate change summits and argue outside of the planetary cost, or cost to animals on this planet. Given humans are just animals, why is the concept do different? We just have to get over ourselves, or see ourselves as less, or fundamentally wrong. We just have to approach the problem from a less human-centric and therefore more honest position. I put it to you that transitioning away from fossil fuels towards renewables, underpinned by government support for workers and with a strong social safety net... Is a slightly different proposition to the rapid collapse of a nuclear power of 300+ million people, in the hope somehow something better will rise from the ashes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 28 minutes ago, ummester said: You cant - but you can think outside of it. People go to climate change summits and argue outside of the planetary cost, or cost to animals on this planet. Given humans are just animals, why is the concept do different? We just have to get over ourselves, or see ourselves as less, or fundamentally wrong. We just have to approach the problem from a less human-centric and therefore more honest position. Yeah, that sounds like some sort of insane crap shoot where the rules are completely undefined. How do you even begin to estimate a human cost when it comes to an accelerationist policy, especially when you're banking on someone like Trump? What's the timeline look like? What's the goal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Yeah, that sounds like some sort of insane crap shoot where the rules are completely undefined. How do you even begin to estimate a human cost when it comes to an accelerationist policy, especially when you're banking on someone like Dr. Stephen Falken ? A challenge, to be certain. Quote What's the timeline look like? ~ 72 hours. Quote What's the goal? Not to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Swordfish said: A challenge, to be certain. ~ 72 hours. Not to play. They're remaking that you know. Selena Gomez is going to star in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 59 minutes ago, ummester said: All fascism starts with victims and victimisation Funny, I would have thought all fascism starts with: 1 hour ago, ummester said: If you take the human cost away, there is nothing crap about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: They're remaking that you know. Selena Gomez is going to star in it. Please tell me you're lying........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Just now, Swordfish said: Please tell me you're lying........ Lying about the Selena Gomez part, but they are remaking it. http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/wargames/243567/wargames-remake-director-dean-israelite-offers-update Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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